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London boaters fight for moorings


Boaty Jo

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3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I thought I had understood that for a while, CaRT will only agree a NAA if the marina constructor can show that they will not be taking a net amount of water from the adjoining  canal. I also think that they have to fill it before the entrance is breached.

 

I am sure someone with detailed experience will be along to correct me . . . 

 

When we were looking to buy a marina we secured copies of all of the agreements etc.

The NAA contract states that C&RT will supply and maintain the water suply intothe marina :

 

 

1. IN consideration of the payments made by the Applicant to CRT and of the agreements on the part of the Applicant and conditions contained in this Agreement CRT (subject to the terms and conditions contained in this Agreement):

 

1.1 AGREES to impound supply and re-supply water to the Basin and the Connection sufficient to enable mooring and navigation in them; and

1.2 GRANTS the right (so far as it can and lawfully may) to the Applicant to construct retain maintain and use the Connection;

1.3 AGREES that the term of this Agreement is for 150 years beginning on the Commencement Date subject to the provisions for determination contained in this Agreement

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Still not fair to need to have a mooring though. That's prejudice. 

I suppose it is but based on a realistic approach. The Wey is a small waterway and unless say going out for the weekend you are unlikely to want to cruise it that often. The maximum period for mooring when cruising is 48hours.

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43 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

I suppose it is but based on a realistic approach. The Wey is a small waterway and unless say going out for the weekend you are unlikely to want to cruise it that often. The maximum period for mooring when cruising is 48hours.

Yes it's 48hrs and also no craft may be used for residential purposes. 

 

That one is such a grey area it may as well be removed. 

 

There are loads of people living on boats on the Wey but I guess not primary residences. 

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When we were looking to buy a marina we secured copies of all of the agreements etc.

The NAA contract states that C&RT will supply and maintain the water suply intothe marina :

 

 

1. IN consideration of the payments made by the Applicant to CRT and of the agreements on the part of the Applicant and conditions contained in this Agreement CRT (subject to the terms and conditions contained in this Agreement):

 

1.1 AGREES to impound supply and re-supply water to the Basin and the Connection sufficient to enable mooring and navigation in them; and

1.2 GRANTS the right (so far as it can and lawfully may) to the Applicant to construct retain maintain and use the Connection;

1.3 AGREES that the term of this Agreement is for 150 years beginning on the Commencement Date subject to the provisions for determination contained in this Agreement

 

I think it goes without saying: the marina is no good to the marina, if the water is not there. You can't have something, if someone has a part to play in an agreement but can't actually hold up their end of the bargain. There has to be a marina, there has to be water. There are boundaries, and CRT's is outside the marina. And outside the marina is the only place the licence is required, by law.

 

The NAA is not applicable to the moorer. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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45 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

I think it goes without saying: the marina is no good to the marina, if the water is not there. You can't have something, if someone has a part to play in an agreement but can't actually hold up their end of the bargain. There has to be a marina, there has to be water. There are boundaries, and CRT's is outside the marina. And outside the marina is the only place the licence is required, by law.

 

The NAA is not applicable to the moorer. 

 

 

 

 

But the NAA can (and I believe often does) require the marina to only allow boats that are licenced (and insured and with BSS) to moor there. Personally, I think that is reasonable and sensible, not least to protect other moorers.

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Yes it's 48hrs and also no craft may be used for residential purposes. 

Unless of course you are a Warden on NT moorings and there are a few 'historic' residential moorings. I guess that does not apply to marinas where, like the Thames there are quite a few

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11 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

But the NAA can (and I believe often does) require the marina to only allow boats that are licenced (and insured and with BSS) to moor there. Personally, I think that is reasonable and sensible, not least to protect other moorers.

 

I would not dispute having BSS and insurance. Now, some boats, brand new boats, are lifted into marinas; these have never seen the canal. You would expect any boat entering a marina from the canal to be properly licenced, to have made that trip. Once in, and maybe never to go out again, no licence is legally required on private property. 

 

If it was the case, CRT would not have stipulated it as an obligation on the marina, in the NAA, to ensure boats have a licence., because the marina otherwise would be breaking the law. The marina would not be breaking the law, to allow boaters to remain inside the marina, and without a licence. But, it's business. And no business unless they comply with the contract they've entered into with the CRT

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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11 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

But the NAA can (and I believe often does) require the marina to only allow boats that are licenced (and insured and with BSS) to moor there. Personally, I think that is reasonable and sensible, not least to protect other moorers.

 

 

It is a mandatory part of the NAA :

 

6. IT is further agreed by the Applicant with CRT that it will:-

6.1 Not allow:

6.1.1 any boat to moor in the Basin or at the Moorings which does not have a boat licence

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It is a mandatory part of the NAA :

 

6. IT is further agreed by the Applicant with CRT that it will:-

6.1 Not allow:

6.1.1 any boat to moor in the Basin or at the Moorings which does not have a boat licence

 

It's business, not waterways law.

 

 

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What happened about the Pillings Lock situation? 

 

A few years ago there was quite a complicated situation where the business owners just crossed their arms and said NO to the NAA. 

 

Did anything ever come of it? Have they fallen into line or did CRT end up losing out? 

 

 

 

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If we are tearing up the existing "pay per annum, based on length" (simplification) model for licence fee, then I quite like the idea of zoned charges so those canals/rivers with limited resources or space, can charge more to subdue demand and balance their local issues. Or better still, how about an exponential cost? So that the first week is (say) £10, the 2nd week is £40, the 3rd week is £90 etc. That way, genuine CCers who travel extensively could end up paying (say) £520 for the whole year. And those who pretend to CC but stay a long time in one area, can pay some kind of ceiling fee once the exponential weighting becomes too much.

 

Of course, it MIGHT not solve the problem - you may have loads of genuine CCers who are traveling extensively, all paying eg £520 but there's still enough CCers to overcrowd the sensitive areas in the scheme.

 

And it goes without saying any more granular pipe-dream enhancement to the current simple scheme would entail enforcement, monitoring much better of boat positions, etc etc. There are genuine privacy, data protection and cost-to-run considerations to bear in mind here.

 

Personally.....I think the existing scheme is pretty much okay as-is.

6 minutes ago, Higgs said:

The Canal and River Trust are the dominant partner. They could ask you to eat sh!T, in a contract, if you want a business that uses their 'road'.  

 

 

 

No, because a contract term needs to be reasonable or it is impossible to enforce and can be deemed to be struck out.

 

Nobody has challenged it yet in court, strangely. Unfortunately Higgs' timetable means it won't happen soon from him (based on a previous reply). The longer it continues unchallenged, the longer one could claim it is in fact, a reasonable ask.

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19 minutes ago, Paul C said:

No, because a contract term needs to be reasonable or it is impossible to enforce and can be deemed to be struck out.

 

Nobody has challenged it yet in court, strangely. Unfortunately Higgs' timetable means it won't happen soon from him (based on a previous reply). The longer it continues unchallenged, the longer one could claim it is in fact, a reasonable ask.

 

The contract is reasonable to CRT and the marina. Forcing people to buy something they don't need costs them nothing. So I would argue that the contract is unreasonable for those forced to make a payment unnecessarily. And don't forget, these mooring customers do pay another 9% on top of their licence fee. Calculated as a percentage of their mooring fee. This payment also goes to CRT

 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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6 hours ago, waterworks said:

How are CRT going to enforce the reduced time visitor moorings since they have no power to issue fines and no infrastructure to collect fees on visitor moorings, if they charge they have to be able to prove you were there if they want to demand the fee, no different to parking enforcement companies.

 

Your PB licence cannot be revoked or refused for non payment of any charge, fee or fine for any other matter, that is an undesputable legal fact unless it says otherwise in any legislation ( which it doesn't) Making anyone pay these fees would have to be in the end via the courts.

 

There's also the question of what legally defines a charge versus a fee? I remember Nigel Moore once looked into this, not sure what his conclusion was ?

 

 

Over-staying on visitor moorings, your boat becomes an "obstruction" which is an offence under the Bylaws.  All the Trust has to do is tell it to the Magistrate, you get a Fine, and a criminal record.

C&RT do have the powers they need, but choose not to use them.

 

Bod.

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7 minutes ago, Bod said:

Over-staying on visitor moorings, your boat becomes an "obstruction" which is an offence under the Bylaws.  All the Trust has to do is tell it to the Magistrate, you get a Fine, and a criminal record.

C&RT do have the powers they need, but choose not to use them.

 

Bod.

 

Or more accurately, they don't have the staff (and money) to enforce them?

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5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When we were looking to buy a marina we secured copies of all of the agreements etc.

The NAA contract states that C&RT will supply and maintain the water suply intothe marina :

 

 

1. IN consideration of the payments made by the Applicant to CRT and of the agreements on the part of the Applicant and conditions contained in this Agreement CRT (subject to the terms and conditions contained in this Agreement):

 

1.1 AGREES to impound supply and re-supply water to the Basin and the Connection sufficient to enable mooring and navigation in them; and

1.2 GRANTS the right (so far as it can and lawfully may) to the Applicant to construct retain maintain and use the Connection;

1.3 AGREES that the term of this Agreement is for 150 years beginning on the Commencement Date subject to the provisions for determination contained in this Agreement

but

 

5.8 Not to create a permanent navigable hydraulic link between the Waterway and the Basin until the bed and banks of the Basin have been rendered watertight to the satisfaction of CRT’s Engineer and thereafter to keep such bed and banks watertight to his satisfaction

 

so I suppose they can over-pump if they cannot fill it from their own resources? 

 

see also https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/business-and-trade/inland-marina-development-guide/design/performance-criteria for details of the stilling test. I think that means a 'may be' - the marina may have to fill it first.

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3 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

From little acorns...

 

 

 

Part of your issue will be, that over a year ago you (or a plaintiff) signed a mooring agreement with the "unreasonable" term in it, then enjoyed a year of mooring at that marina without raising the issue in that time. Much like, say, paying for car tax then a year elapsing. While you might claim its an unfair term, they could say that you could have used the canal. So the passage of time weakens the case considerably.

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3 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Steve Haywood?

 

 

Amusingly he overstayed in Banbury (or his boat did) back around april-May-ish. 

 

Unless of course he cruised away multiple times then came back each time I was there over the 3-4 week period I had occasion to visit repeatedly by road! 

 

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9 hours ago, Midnight said:

 

Most of us prefer to stay under the radar and generally abide by C&RT's Terms and Conditions but please crack on and let us know how you get on. 

You can accept unlawful terms and conditions by hiding under the radar if you want, that's your choice . 


 I won't be.

 

Edited by waterworks
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24 minutes ago, waterworks said:

You can accept unlawful terms and conditions by hiding under the radar if you want, that's your choice . 


 I won't be.

 

 

I seem to recall Tony Dunkley adopting a very similar stance.......

 

And got right Royaly shafted big style. So good luck with that.

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