Help please - refilled water tank after full winter empty, now no water to taps

[TheBiscuits]

29 minutes ago, Hilda said:

We are on the Leeds Liverpool, but thank you.

 

Me too.  What town are you near?  I'm in Wigan.

[Hilda]

Skipton here... 30+ years for my parents. 😁

I'll have a look for mum n get my choppers round pipes or taps as necessary for her!

Thank you very much for replying 

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Hilda said:

Skipton here... 30+ years for my parents. 😁

 

Sorry, it's a bit far for me to pop by and look at it.

 

Ask someone from Pennine Cruisers / The Boathouse pub to check, they are a very friendly helpful bunch.

[Hilda]

14 minutes ago, haggis said:

I don't know where you get the "most people don't empty water tanks when they winterise the boat"  We certainly do and then drain down all the pipes and empty the calorifier and I don't think we are alone. If you are leaving your boat over the winter, it makes sense and prevents you coming back to a burst pipe. Those living on their boats, of course have no need to do this.

Thank you for that... Dad taught us to do it, so we do! 

[Tony Brooks]

18 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Skipton here... 30+ years for my parents. 😁

I'll have a look for mum n get my choppers round pipes or taps as necessary for her!

Thank you very much for replying 

 

any chnace you have a bit of hose lying about on the boat that you could tape to the tap outlet, then suck on that.

[Tony1]

22 minutes ago, haggis said:

I don't know where you get the "most people don't empty water tanks when they winterise the boat"  We certainly do and then drain down all the pipes and empty the calorifier 

 

If I may be so bold Mrs H, I think the thing to watch for when winterising is that you don't drain all of the beer containers on the vessel. 

Even more important, never completely drain the whisky bottle before winter. 

I've seen this lead to a collapse in crew morale. 

 

 

[MtB]

11 hours ago, Hilda said:

we refilled the wAter tank at the front,

 

Are you absolutely certain this was the water tank and not a tank for anything else? In the bows it probably is, but DIY boat-builders sometimes do some very strange things.

 

Also, you mention blockages. Spontaneous blockages are vanishingly rare so I would discount this. A closed valve seems far more likely. That valve you mentioned opening, what made you think it was closed in the first place? When draining a system during winterising it is normal practise to leave all valves OPEN. 

(Point being, when you 'opened' it, I reckon you probably actually closed it!)

 

[Hilda]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

any chnace you have a bit of hose lying about on the boat that you could tape to the tap outlet, then suck on that.

Good idea, thanknyou I will try that.

 

5 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

If I may be so bold Mrs H, I think the thing to watch for when winterising is that you don't drain all of the beer containers on the vessel. 

Even more important, never completely drain the whisky bottle before winter. 

I've seen this lead to a collapse in crew morale. 

 

 

Love it..?? And Dad would be 'on board' 100% with that philosophy!! 😉😂

[Hilda]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

I think you left the stop cock closed.

 

I concur!! That'll be the 1st thing I check.... I had got my knickers in such a knot and confused myself that it was best to just leave it and ask for help! 

[David Mack]

6 hours ago, Hilda said:

mum lives a fair distance from her boat and obviously with no water she had to return home

Take a container or two of fresh water with you. That way, even if you can't get the boat water system sorted immediately, you can manage cups of tea and basic ablutions for a stay of a couple of days.

A keep a bucket of canal water in the bathroom to flush the loo with.

Edited March 28, 2022 by David Mack

[Bod]

Back to basics.

Which tank did you fill?

The tank filler point should have a label saying what the tank contains.

Don't feel bad at answering this, a forum member did recently make a posting where an inexperienced crew member did fill the wrong tank.

If you have filled the wrong tank we can advise how to rectify this.

 

Bod

[Hilda]

On 28/03/2022 at 17:54, Bod said:

Back to basics.

Which tank did you fill?

The tank filler point should have a label saying what the tank contains.

Don't feel bad at answering this, a forum member did recently make a posting where an inexperienced crew member did fill the wrong tank.

If you have filled the wrong tank we can advise how to rectify this.

 

Bod

Hi

thank you for saying not to feel daft... I am 100% certain it's the water tank as I've filled it for her for 7 years since dad died. And the screw lid is stamped 'Water' for the terminally daft like me. I honestly think I've got myself confused with open n closed stopcock.... and as Mum simply can't get down under and inside cupboards now I gave to do it. 

My patents have had a narrowboat since as was a nipper, (and that's a good few decades), so I should know this, but stress on the day made it worse.

i'll report back to everyone who's been so kind once I know if it is Taos, stopcocks or air that needs sorting.

kindest wishes to all

Jayne and Hilda 

[Hilda]

Hello Everyone

Well we've been back twice and still don't have any water through the taps.

 

I LOOKED at the pre-pump filter as suggested an there was no sign of water getting to it once we had both stop cocks fully turned anti-clockwise (we tried clockwise too just in case). 

SO I OPENED the pipe work at the point immediately after the second stopcock which is under the sink very close to the filter and pump (a matter of inches) and as suggested sucked on the pipe for as long as I could and as hard as I could... I even had a bike pump at one point. No water came through. So I tried blowing an asked Mum to watch the water tank to see if she saw any bubbles, She did not.

Given we still hear the pump, have good battery power and can not draw water manually to the point in the pipework immediately prior to the pump, as described above.....

 

what do you lovely, clever folks think to my thoughts that it might. Be a stuck stop cock... the main one closest to the tank

(located behind the front locker and accessed via a small pixie door, just big enough to get my hand in)? And if I'm right, how do we empty the water tank from the small inlet in order to get the stop cock replaced or fixed without flooding the hull?

I tried using the 'fish tank' method of sucking on a pipe until the water back flows out, but after many many attempts I couldn't get the water to flow out.

 

have you guys any idea where we go from here please? 

Any other ideas on what to try or anything we might have missed given we have tried absolutely everything you kind folks have suggested in your previous replies.

 

for whatever reason Mum is very reluctant to take it to a boatyard so I am doing my best to try and sort it for her. I have a degree in Electronic Engneering so I understand Electrics and I know the piping layout and can do basic plumbing but I am at a loss as to why good old fashioned sucking the pipe at source hasn't worked.

 

sorry for the long post... I am just trying to fully explain so you guys can assist.

Many Thanks

Jayne (The fixer Daughter, and Hilda - The Mum)✌️️😁

[Jen-in-Wellies]

48 minutes ago, Hilda said:

what do you lovely, clever folks think to my thoughts that it might. Be a stuck stop cock... the main one closest to the tank

Anything is possible.

48 minutes ago, Hilda said:

how do we empty the water tank from the small inlet in order to get the stop cock replaced or fixed without flooding the hull?

Lots of ways to do this. The important thing is to use a hose down the water tank filler port that is small enough to get through, but for the standard 1,1/4" or 1,1/2" BSP filler ports, any1/2" water hose is fine.

• Put a bit of 1/2" ID hose pipe down the filling inlet far enough to reach the bottom of the tank. Get a battery electric drill and a drill pump. Pump water from tank in to the cut.
• Alternatively, remove the water pump you already have, take it outside the boat and connect that bit of half inch hose to the inlet. Extend the water pump wiring outside the boat temporarily and pump the tank out in to the cut. You may need to get the pump low down relative to the tank, especially if you need to restart the pumping with the tank relatively empty, as they don't like pulling water up a great height. Many pumps don't like running dry, so be ready to turn off as soon as it does.
• There are also various hand pumps around, but these will be hard work with so much water to remove, so I'd go for electric.

Jen

Edited April 25, 2022 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Thames Bhaji]

The stopcock closest to the tank - would you be able to remove the pipes from that one, or is it too inaccessible? That’s where I’d start if possible. If you can manage it, it would tell you a bit more, and if water was present you could catch the small amount in a towel before reconnecting. But don’t risk it if you might struggle to get the hose back on because of where it is. What sort of pipework is it there - rigid / flexible? 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

The link I gave earlier was to a drill pump that takes 6mm hose, rather than 1/2". 1/2" ones do exist and a search will find them. For example.

[Peugeot 106]

3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Anything is possible.

Lots of ways to do this. The important thing is to use a hose down the water tank filler port that is small enough to get through, but for the standard 1,1/4" or 1,1/2" BSP filler ports, any1/2" water hose is fine.

• Put a bit of 1/2" ID hose pipe down the filling inlet far enough to reach the bottom of the tank. Get a battery electric drill and a drill pump. Pump water from tank in to the cut.
• Alternatively, remove the water pump you already have, take it outside the boat and connect that bit of half inch hose to the inlet. Extend the water pump wiring outside the boat temporarily and pump the tank out in to the cut. You may need to get the pump low down relative to the tank, especially if you need to restart the pumping with the tank relatively empty, as they don't like pulling water up a great height. Many pumps don't like running dry, so be ready to turn off as soon as it does.
• There are also various hand pumps around, but these will be hard work with so much water to remove, so I'd go for electric.

Jen

If you use the water pump off the boat be a little careful as they are often not rated for continuous use. You may be better running it for a while then letting it cool down before running it again. They do not normally pump this amount of water in one go and if you just run it continuously for a long time without letting it cool you may run the risk of burning it out

good luck, you’ll get there in the end

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

You can see into the water tank?   How?  What boat builder?  Is the tank a plastic bag tank by any odd chance?  Could there possibly be yet another stop tap?

 

You will not blow it back to the tank with the pump fitted, there is/are non return valve/s in the pump.

 

Start from where you know there is water, at the outlet ON the tank itself and work away from there.

 

Its time you took some pictures....................................

 

 

[Bod]

How old is the boat?

Does it have a "built-in" water tank?

How high from the floor is the outlet pipe from the tank?

 

You may have a dip tube inside the tank, to enable the full contents to be used.

In my case, as below, this tube can rust up enough to stop the flow.

If you are lucky then this rust can be removed (BUT only for it to grow again ).

The cure I used was to blank off this tube, and replace it with a new one, in copper.

 

Bod

[Hilda]

4 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Anything is possible.

Lots of ways to do this. The important thing is to use a hose down the water tank filler port that is small enough to get through, but for the standard 1,1/4" or 1,1/2" BSP filler ports, any1/2" water hose is fine.

• Put a bit of 1/2" ID hose pipe down the filling inlet far enough to reach the bottom of the tank. Get a battery electric drill and a drill pump. Pump water from tank in to the cut.
• Alternatively, remove the water pump you already have, take it outside the boat and connect that bit of half inch hose to the inlet. Extend the water pump wiring outside the boat temporarily and pump the tank out in to the cut. You may need to get the pump low down relative to the tank, especially if you need to restart the pumping with the tank relatively empty, as they don't like pulling water up a great height. Many pumps don't like running dry, so be ready to turn off as soon as it does.
• There are also various hand pumps around, but these will be hard work with so much water to remove, so I'd go for electric.

Jen

Thank you for the great advice abd information... I'm thinking a bit of muscle power and a manual pump might be easiest... I'm convinced it's that stop-cock as I can't hear water flow when I open it.

Thanks again.

[Hilda]

3 hours ago, Thames Bhaji said:

The stopcock closest to the tank - would you be able to remove the pipes from that one, or is it too inaccessible? That’s where I’d start if possible. If you can manage it, it would tell you a bit more, and if water was present you could catch the small amount in a towel before reconnecting. But don’t risk it if you might struggle to get the hose back on because of where it is. What sort of pipework is it there - rigid / flexible? 

yagain.yeah, sadly it's at the back of a cupboard inside another door. I can reach it easkily, but to get inside with 2 hands and use tools would be impossible. I think it's gonna be a case of empty the tank as suggested by another lovely respondent and then cut that bit of copper pipe and replace the Stopcock.... I might try banging it with a hammer first though!! 😆

Thanks for your response it helps greatly to know fellow boaters are trying to help.

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The link I gave earlier was to a drill pump that takes 6mm hose, rather than 1/2". 1/2" ones do exist and a search will find them. For example.

Thanks Jen! I'll take a look now.

Best wishes

Jayne

[Tracy D'arth]

Is the stop cock next to the tank a gate valve rather than a stop tap?  If so it is quite possible that the gate is jammed in the closed position and the spindle has sheared off it inside.  If the hand wheel turns very easily from stop to stop this is possibly the problem.

 

Gate valves usually have a red painted pressed metal wheel as a handle, stop taps have a bar  or knob handle.  A picture would aid us enormously.

 

[Hilda]

Yes, it's one of those, like the picture... And it's not overly difficult to turn, but has a bit of resistance. That's why i'm unsure if it's stuck or not.. I think it is.

Any idea how to get it to move without having to empty the tank manually (with a drill pump kindly advised earlier) 

Thank you for you advice and response.

Jayne

Just now, Hilda said:

Yes, it's one of those, like the picture... And it's not overly difficult to turn, but has a bit of resistance. That's why i'm unsure if it's stuck or not.. I think it is.

Any idea how to get it to move without having to empty the tank manually (with a drill pump kindly advised earlier) 

Thank you for you advice and response.

Jayne

I'm really sorry I can't get a picture until Saturday, as I live a long way from mums boat... I will take pictures on Saturday and post here if I can't fix it then.

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, Peugeot 106 said:

If you use the water pump off the boat be a little careful as they are often not rated for continuous use. You may be better running it for a while then letting it cool down before running it again. They do not normally pump this amount of water in one go and if you just run it continuously for a long time without letting it cool you may run the risk of burning it out

good luck, you’ll get there in the end

 

 

Thank you for the advice... Mum thinks she has a drill pump as described by another person (dad bought it for filling diesel but never used it). So at least we can empty the tank and take it from there...

Thank you very much for the caution though.

1 hour ago, Bod said:

How old is the boat?

Does it have a "built-in" water tank?

How high from the floor is the outlet pipe from the tank?

 

You may have a dip tube inside the tank, to enable the full contents to be used.

In my case, as below, this tube can rust up enough to stop the flow.

If you are lucky then this rust can be removed (BUT only for it to grow again ).

The cure I used was to blank off this tube, and replace it with a new one, in copper.

 

Bod

Hi thanks for this...

I understand stainless steel doesn't go rusty so we doubt it's a blockage issue... But I will get a torch in once it's empty to check. Your picture has helped greatly in helping me see what I need tp be looking for. Thank you.

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Yes, it's one of those, like the picture... And it's not overly difficult to turn, but has a bit of resistance. That's why i'm unsure if it's stuck or not.. I think it is.

 

The point is not whether it turns, it is whether it turns in one direction about three whole turns and then stops. Does it do this? And once stopped, does it then turn 3 whole turns in the opposite direction and then stop?

 

If yes to both questions then the valve is probably working correctly.