Help please - refilled water tank after full winter empty, now no water to taps

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Any idea how to get it to move without having to empty the tank manually (with a drill pump kindly advised earlier) 

 

It is not unknown for the gate on those valves to drop off while the gland that prevents any leaks at the spindle still gives some resistance to turning. From your descriptions I think this may be what has happened and I fear there is no way to deal with it without draining the tank down unless you are happy to risk mopping up a tank full of water, can squash any hose between it and the tank, or freeze the pipe between it and the tank. In realty I think for someone less used to dealing with such things tank draining is the  sensible way.

 

As long as access is fair I think I would loosen the big nut on the outlet side and see if water came out, more that just a trickle. Note loosen, NOT take it right off just in case. Then tighten and repeat on the tank side. That should show if it is the valve at fault or a blockage in the tank outlet & pipe.

 

Edited to add: In the light of Mike's comment  I can say that I have one at home that feels stiffish but can be turned far more than three turns but it does not stop the water flow. The key is "three turns and then stops itself" in either direction.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[Hilda]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

The point is not whether it turns, it is whether it turns in one direction about three whole turns and then stops. Does it do this? And once stopped, does it then turn 3 whole turns in the opposite direction and then stop?

 

If yes to both questions then the valve is probably working correctly.

Ah, I see... Yes, it does turn as you describe. Sounds like it's working then! That's That theory gone then. Thank you for helping me eliminate that! 

Cheers Jayne

[Ronaldo47]

A  gate valve that has become stiff can usually  be  made easier to turn by slackening off the gland nut under the handwheel. Once freed, it can be re-tightened if necessary.  

Edited April 25, 2022 by Ronaldo47

[Hilda]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It is not unknown for the gate on those valves to drop off while the gland that prevents any leaks at the spindle still gives some resistance to turning. From your descriptions I think this may be what has happened and I fear there is no way to deal with it without draining the tank down unless you are happy to risk mopping up a tank full of water, can squash any hose between it and the tank, or freeze the pipe between it and the tank. In realty I think for someone less used to dealing with such things tank draining is the  sensible way.

 

As long as access is fair I think I would loosen the big nut on the outlet side and see if water came out, more that just a trickle. Note loosen, NOT take it right off just in case. Then tighten and repeat on the tank side. That should show if it is the valve at fault or a blockage in the tank outlet & pipe.

 

Edited to add: In the light of Mike's comment  I can say that I have one at home that feels stiffish but can be turned far more than three turns but it does not stop the water flow. The key is "three turns and then stops itself" in either direction.

This is very helpful.. I understand how loosening the nuts either side will help me inderstand if it's the vslve at fault. I will count the turns on Saturday, but in my head it's more than 3... I'll chack n report back.

I am chatting with mum to explain all your (and everyones)  fantastic advice.

We are very grateful.

I will drain, then loosen the nuts on the  valve. If it needs replacing, that's someone else's job, it's too much for me!

[Tracy D'arth]

17 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Yes, it's one of those, like the picture... And it's not overly difficult to turn, but has a bit of resistance. That's why i'm unsure if it's stuck or not.. I think it is.

Any idea how to get it to move without having to empty the tank manually (with a drill pump kindly advised earlier) 

Thank you for you advice and response.

Jayne

I'm really sorry I can't get a picture until Saturday, as I live a long way from mums boat... I will take pictures on Saturday and post here if I can't fix it then.

The gate is a wedge shape, it fits in a corresponding wedge shaped slot in the body. If the valve is forcible screwed shut it can jam closed. When it is again forced open, anticlockwise, the spindle snaps and leaves the wedge in the closed position. The top of the valve does unscrew but they are usually very tight, doesn't help anyway as it needs a new valve. 

 

You will have to empty the tank.  You will also need good access to change the valve. Send a picture and we will try to match the valve up for the easiest swop.

It is most likely to be a 15mm compression gate valve but could be a threaded BSP valve. Does it have 2 nuts on the pipes as the picture? If so its compression and you will probably not need to change the nuts or the olives that are crushed onto the pipes.

 

Empty the tank either with a pump or a wet vac (tedious)  or if you can get to a pump out, can you get the hose into the tank? Yes I know it is drinking water but that will be the quickest way.

[Hilda]

3 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

A  gate valve that has become stiff can usually  be  made easier to turn by slackening off the gland nut under the handwheel. Once freed, it can be re-tightened if necessary.  

Thank you! Another trick to try! Most appreciated.

Jayne

[Tracy D'arth]

18 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

The point is not whether it turns, it is whether it turns in one direction about three whole turns and then stops. Does it do this? And once stopped, does it then turn 3 whole turns in the opposite direction and then stop?

 

If yes to both questions then the valve is probably working correctly.

Not if its a gate and the spindle has left the gate jammed in. It will still feel the same.

[Hilda]

3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The gate is a wedge shape, it fits in a corresponding wedge shaped slot in the body. If the valve is forcible screwed shut it can jam closed. When it is again forced open, anticlockwise, the spindle snaps and leaves the wedge in the closed position. The top of the valve does unscrew but they are usually very tight, doesn't help anyway as it needs a new valve. 

 

You will have to empty the tank.  You will also need good access to change the valve. Send a picture and we will try to match the valve up for the easiest swop.

It is most likely to be a 15mm compression gate valve but could be a threaded BSP valve. Does it have 2 nuts on the pipes as the picture? If so its compression and you will probably not need to change the nuts or the olives that are crushed onto the pipes.

 

Empty the tank either with a pump or a wet vac (tedious)  or if you can get to a pump out, can you get the hose into the tank? Yes I know it is drinking water but that will be the quickest way.

I will take a picture on Saturday, but from memory it has 2 nuts like the picture... I never thought of a pump out, it a wet vac. I'm sure mum has one of them and I know she has a generator.

I am so very grateful to you and everyone else trying to help me sort this for mum.

I'll be back at the weekend with the pictures of the valve, pump and pipework everyone is requesting

Thank you again. 

Best wishes

Jayne

3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Not if its a gate and the spindle has left the gate jammed in. It will still feel the same.

Ok... Thank you.

I think pictures and empty the tank are my next step.

Your help and advice is very much appreciated

Jayne

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Not if its a gate and the spindle has left the gate jammed in. It will still feel the same.

The picture I posted is a 22mm compression valve, the size will be on the body casting, !5mm would be normal.

 

This picture is a threaded BSP valve, more difficult to change for you.

[Hilda]

14 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The picture I posted is a 22mm compression valve, the size will be on the body casting, !5mm would be normal.

 

This picture is a threaded BSP valve, more difficult to change for you.

Righto, thank you!

I think a look at the valve and a picture will help you guys help me enormously...

I'll be back at the weekend with pictures.

Cheers!

Jayne

[Tracy D'arth]

I don't like gate valves used as shut off valves for tanks. Its too easy to overtighten them trying to get a complete shut off. Much better to use a quarter turn ball valve that gives an instant shut off without having to use force. like this one, 

 

 

This could be a straight swap if your existing valve is 15mm compression and you can move one pipe enough to get it in. Much easier to use and less likely to fail with overtightening.  

 

Do you have large spanners or pipe wrenches, or waterpump pliers etc.?

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

The point is not whether it turns, it is whether it turns in one direction about three whole turns and then stops. Does it do this? And once stopped, does it then turn 3 whole turns in the opposite direction and then stop?

 

If yes to both questions then the valve is probably working correctly.

Not necessarily. I had to deal with one on a friend's central heating. From the outside the valve was turning on and off as normal, but water wouldn't flow to the radiators. When I eventually dismantled the pipework the gate was stuck in the closed position, regardless of what you did with the handle. That was a 22mm compression fitting valve like the one pictured.

[Slow and Steady]

39 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I don't like gate valves used as shut off valves for tanks. Its too easy to overtighten them trying to get a complete shut off. Much better to use a quarter turn ball valve that gives an instant shut off without having to use force. like this one, 

 

 

This could be a straight swap if your existing valve is 15mm compression and you can move one pipe enough to get it in. Much easier to use and less likely to fail with overtightening.  

 

Do you have large spanners or pipe wrenches, or waterpump pliers etc.?

Definitely. Gate valves are the work of the devil - they typically sit there for years then fail the first time you try and use them!

[Tony Brooks]

33 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

Definitely. Gate valves are the work of the devil - they typically sit there for years then fail the first time you try and use them!

I am very much with you and Tracy with that.

[GUMPY]

We had two red wheel  valves in this house that failed after a couple of years not being used, both failed closed. One felt stuff to open and the other felt loose one had a broken shaft the other the threads were stuck together.

I also have one on the boat I must replace but it involves draining the water tank as it's the tank stopcock😱

[Momac]

The fact that people are winterising suggests an absence of use over the winter. The only losses I have had to frost have been domestic plumbing items  in locations where all  of the water has not successfully been removed . Therefore draining the water off seems to me a sensible precaution.

 

 

I have , most years, an issue with air in the water after refilling with water in the spring and this is more often than not associated with  the tank breather clogged , presumably due to spiders finding the breather to be  a suitable winter home. A well sealed cap on the tank and a clogged breather and a rigid steel tank could easily inhibit the flow of water .

 

 

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Slow and Steady said:

Definitely. Gate valves are the work of the devil - they typically sit there for years then fail the first time you try and use them!

 

Many moons ago at the beginning of my career, i was told never to leave gate valves fully open or closed, but to back them off quarter of a turn to prevent them sticking and breaking when you next move them.

 

I have never had one break but only have had three in all of the houses I have lived in, and they were not operated that regularly.

[Slow and Steady]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Many moons ago at the beginning of my career, i was told never to leave gate valves fully open or closed, but to back them off quarter of a turn to prevent them sticking and breaking when you next move them.

 

I have never had one break but only have had three in all of the houses I have lived in, and they were not operated that regularly.

I had a bunch of them on an old central heating system - not one would budge. I've got quite a few in the boat that do work, but like you I always back them off a bit, none look as old as they should for the boat's age which hints that they've been replaced at least once. If I had to replace, I'd use something like Tracy posted.

[Tracy D'arth]

7 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Many moons ago at the beginning of my career, i was told never to leave gate valves fully open or closed, but to back them off quarter of a turn to prevent them sticking and breaking when you next move them.

 

I have never had one break but only have had three in all of the houses I have lived in, and they were not operated that regularly.

That is always good advice. Always take the crush off a thread in a valve.

The problem is that most gate valves that folk buy are absolute junk and are used where a washered valve or a ball valve should have been used.

Gate valves were designed for flow control, not as complete shut off valves but because they are cheap they get used in the wrong places.

[cuthound]

6 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

I had a bunch of them on an old central heating system - not one would budge. I've got quite a few in the boat that do work, but like you I always back them off a bit, none look as old as they should for the boat's age which hints that they've been replaced at least once. If I had to replace, I'd use something like Tracy posted.

 

Yes, whenever I do any plumbing I always use quarter turn ball valves so that in future anything can be isolated locally. If/when the gate valves fail I will replace them with quarter turn ball valves.

Edited April 25, 2022 by cuthound
To remove a letter masquerading as a space

[Hilda]

6 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I don't like gate valves used as shut off valves for tanks. Its too easy to overtighten them trying to get a complete shut off. Much better to use a quarter turn ball valve that gives an instant shut off without having to use force. like this one, 

 

 

This could be a straight swap if your existing valve is 15mm compression and you can move one pipe enough to get it in. Much easier to use and less likely to fail with overtightening.  

 

Do you have large spanners or pipe wrenches, or waterpump pliers etc.?

Hi

Yes, we have lots of the right tools and could in theory swap them over, (once the tank is empty, I will look on Saturday to see the 'mm' and perhaps sort swapping to the type you suggest. I know the second valve is only a quarter turn one. Dad was very cautious and put stop valve/ taps all over... I think there is another in the bathroom too!

 

Thanks very much for the advice... I'll run it by mum n see of I can sort it.

Best wishes

Jayne

 

[Tracy D'arth]

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

Hi

Yes, we have lots of the right tools and could in theory swap them over, (once the tank is empty, I will look on Saturday to see the 'mm' and perhaps sort swapping to the type you suggest. I know the second valve is only a quarter turn one. Dad was very cautious and put stop valve/ taps all over... I think there is another in the bathroom too!

 

Thanks very much for the advice... I'll run it by mum n see of I can sort it.

Best wishes

Jayne

 

Here to help.

[Hilda]

6 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Here to help.

Thank you👌😁

[Hilda]

Hello all

 

Well as promised, i'm back with updates after visiting the boat today

 

And

 

Mystery solved.....

It turns out the valve closest to the pump, under the sink wasn't a quarter turn, it was just stuck!! And one strong chap later, it is once again loose functioning correctly and the water sysyem is restored.

 

Mum and I would like to thank each and every one of you that took time to respond and help us. I learned a lot that I'm certain will be useful in the future.

Best wishes

Jayne and Hilda.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

13 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Hello all

 

Well as promised, i'm back with updates after visiting the boat today

 

And

 

Mystery solved.....

It turns out the valve closest to the pump, under the sink wasn't a quarter turn, it was just stuck!! And one strong chap later, it is once again loose functioning correctly and the water sysyem is restored.

 

Mum and I would like to thank each and every one of you that took time to respond and help us. I learned a lot that I'm certain will be useful in the future.

Best wishes

Jayne and Hilda.

 

Excellent, thanks.