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1 minute ago, Slow and Steady said:

On that subject it's well worth trying a few fire extinguishers to experience what they actual do and don't do. There must be courses available for this. I was taught by a fireman that it's actually possible to extinguish small fires FROM A SAFE POSITION. VW campers have a rep for going up in smoke but unlike a boat it's quite often possible to put them out before they take hold and I know several people who have done so with engine/fuel fires but you do need to know exactly how to do it. The difference from a boat is how easily one can back off if it's not going well. I think in a boat you're either at the source of the fire when it happens/you cause it and have a chance to deal with a known entity it, or you're not and get out sharpish.

 

But in that instance you will be fighting the engine/fuel fire from outside the confines of the camper. Which are pretty small and easy to escape from anyway.

 

Fighting one from inside the confines of a narrowboat is a different kettle of fish, particularly if one is overwhelmed by the smoke.

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7 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

But in that instance you will be fighting the engine/fuel fire from outside the confines of the camper. Which are pretty small and easy to escape from anyway.

 

Fighting one from inside the confines of a narrowboat is a different kettle of fish, particularly if one is overwhelmed by the smoke.

Er, yes - that's what I said.

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6 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

Er, yes - that's what I said.

 

Indeed so unfortunately not particularly relevant.

 

A boat extinguisher should be regarded purely as a tool to facilitate the escape not to fight the fire to the point it's extinguished.

 

It actually should be possible to escape a narrowboat fire without actually using anything. If it's been constructed correctly one should be able to exit from one end or the other without the need to supress the flames to pass.

 

This is why locking/securing the doors from the outside whilst it is occupied is a really really bad idea as you close down the escape routes.

 

Very often you will see padlocked rear doors on occupied narrowboats, and sometimes front doors too.

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9 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

A boat extinguisher should be regarded purely as a tool to facilitate the escape not to fight the fire to the point it's extinguished.

 

I disagree, circumstances vary. If I had a small fire I could tackle with a fire extinguisher I would not let my boat burn out. But I have been taught how to tackle fires and have experience using fire extinguishers. If you don't have confidence fair enough.

Edited by Slow and Steady
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1 minute ago, Slow and Steady said:

I disagree, circumstances vary. If I had a small fire I could tackle with a fire extinguisher I would not let my boat burn out.

 

I guess it depends on the definition of 'small', what the source of the ignition is, what's fuelling it, how likely is it to get quickly out of control and how likely the extinguisher is to run out before it's out.

1 minute ago, Slow and Steady said:

I would also say that if you let off a powder extinguisher to aid escape you're as likely to make it harder to get out. Ever seen what happens in an enclosed space?

 

Yes we had to practice letting on off as part of our fire training at work. They make a right mess.

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Just now, The Happy Nomad said:

 

I guess it depends on the definition of 'small', what the source of the ignition is, what's fuelling it, how likely is it to get quickly out of control and how likely the extinguisher is to run out before it's out.

Absolutely. If you actually read my post I make all these points and even suggest one gets some experience/training with fire extinguishers to put yourself in a position to make those judgements. If fire extinguishers are a complete unknown it's almost certainly the better option to run for it.

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1 minute ago, Slow and Steady said:

Absolutely. If you actually read my post I make all these points and even suggest one gets some experience/training with fire extinguishers to put yourself in a position to make those judgements. If fire extinguishers are a complete unknown it's almost certainly the better option to run for it.

 

I did.

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4 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

 

 

Yes we had to practice letting on off as part of our fire training at work. They make a right mess.

And a fog where you can barely see your hand in front of your face, not very helpful as an aid to escape.

1 minute ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

I did.

Then used the word "but" before repeating my advice as if I hadn't made the points already. I'm out.

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1 minute ago, Slow and Steady said:

And a fog where you can barely see your hand in front of your face, not very helpful as an aid to escape.

 

Which is why I pointed out it's often possible to escape without using anything.

 

However if your only escape is blocked by a fire you don't really have any choice.

3 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

Then used the word "but" before repeating my advice as if I hadn't made the points already. I'm out.

 

Ah you want the 'credit' for making the point first.

 

Feel free, have it.

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11 minutes ago, IanM said:

 

I think the issue is that he's imparting his knowledge of large lumpy water boats and ships and trying to apply it to small inland waterway craft.  His comments on the size of fire extinguishers and his insistence that a boat should have a Deck Wash Hose for fire fighting is an example.  Whilst out at sea you would need a robust way of fighting fires, on a canal an extinguisher is pretty much just to assist in escaping.  I know if my boat was on fire I'd probably just get out of there as quickly as possible.

Not really, most local crab & lobster fishing crews wear a dry suit, or have one to hand in winter, and a few boats of just over 30ft have real fire extinguishers due to insurance and commercial requirements. I've seen small boats on the Thames with wash down hoses, in fact if you look around any canal marina, you will see deck wash hoses. Same size as a garden hose, 3/4 or 1/2 inch slinky is the best, as that type of hose will not kink up and easy to store.

slinky hose garden water red: Search Result | eBay

That type can sometimes produce a fine spray or a jet, BUT a brass adjustable is often better and less easily damaged.

 

The attitude in your reply towards fire fighting gear is typical for small craft boat owners, as what you are saying is that putting out a fire should be done by the local emergency services. So what do you do when actually going along a canal or tied up in a remote section of a canal. The fire brigade will take a long time in some canals, and often get stuck in the mud trying. By the time they do to get to your boat, it will be a doing a good impression of the towering inferno. You should all take responsibility for your own boat and being able to deal with a fire or medical emergency is all part of every owner and skippers duty. If you don't know what a resus tube is:

resus tube medical emergency airway: Search Result | eBay

Note: If you have time use a lubricant gell, or spit on the tube if you don't have time to find the KY jelly or whatever is not toxic. There are small ones with a simple pump for babies, and if you have one available they make kiss of life far more pleasant if you would not like kissing the person you are try to save from the effects of a CO poisoning, drowning, explosion or heart attack. Not expensive and a safe boater or responsible owner would include a few in the first aid kit, along with a small tube of lubricant cream.

 

My used dry survival suit cost me 75 quid including postage, and the water in the UK canals is often colder than the sea water in winter. Very few canal boaters understand what cold water shock is, but wearing a dry suit when transiting your boat to go to the local pub could save your life, as they keep you warm for at least 20 mins, (Varies with exact type of suit), in freezing water. Some sealed up expensive boat crew jackets do help reduce cold water shock and provide a degree of extra buoyancy if you fall in during the winter, but the real thing is far better.

 

Now back to stoves, it seems that the price of imported coal is going into orbit, as I presume recent sanctions will stop the UK importing cheap coal and the price of gas is already going up. So the way ahead for anyone with enough solar panels, wind generator or shore power might involve using Hydrogen for cooking. The cheap H2 supply sets, (Not to be confused with a generator that makes electricity), are in the longer term the way to go for a one or two ring stove, with a microwave for baked spuds etc.

hydrogen generators 12v: Search Result | eBay

 

Now for the difficult part, as normal gas burners don't work too well with Hydrogen, and that is how to make a new burner. The designs are available, but it's definitely not a job for a wanabee gas engineer. very tricky drilling required. This type use both the H and O2 outputs from the 12V Hydrogen set. There are H only burners around.

 

I heating fuel terms, coal and gas wil probably prove to be too expensive once the Ukranian gas pipeline contracts are binned by the Germans, and the cost of importing Australian or US coal gets too high, it might need to be wood or alcohol, (Meths).

Spirit cooker 3000 2-flame | Stoves | Pantry / Grill / Oven | Comfort | Yachting equipment, boat accessories, sailing clothing online shop | Compass24

Same as an Origo 3000, but made in Germany. You will need pan clamps and even gimbals, so not cheap.

 

Origo still make the large 230V/alcohol units, but not the old Heat Pal.

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1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

That I believe (and I am happy to be corrected) is the general advice offered by the fire service.

 

Basically get out, using the fire fighting aids in the boat/flat/house if you need to facilitate your escape but do not try and fight the fire once you have found safety. Call the fire service to do that.

 

Obviously more damage will be done while you wait for them to get there but at the end of the day it's only metal/bricks/mortar you are trying to preserve. And if it's insured (and if it isn't then it should have been) your metal/bricks/mortar will be restored.

 

Anybody suggesting anything different is seriously giving out dodgy advice and should be disregarded.

Yes but if you want to escape from a real fire rather than some minor smoke and a flame the size of a candle you need a better fire extinguisher with a longer range if required. Also what are you going to do if the fire involves another cabin or nearby boat, just sit there trying to figure out how long it will take the fire brigade to get to you and just listen to the occupants burn to death, because you can't open their hatch or door and then don't have any means of damping down the fire so that the occupants can be pulled out.

  Fires often spread because the fire extinguisher first used is just too small, so in many cases you will be able to put the fire out if you have an Amerex or similar. If the BSS thought you should just give up, get off and dial 999, they would not insist on a fire extinguisher.

I'm not contradicting fire department advice, I'm just suggesting you buy a real, not a toy extinguisher.

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51 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

I would also say that if you let off a powder extinguisher to aid escape you're as likely to make it harder to get out. Ever seen what happens in an enclosed space?

Dry powder extinguishers can be problematic, which is why I try not to have to use one. A wet towel in a bucket often works better!

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14 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Stuff

 

I was going to try and make a sensible reply to your post but this bit...

 

16 minutes ago, TNLI said:

wearing a dry suit when transiting your boat to go to the local pub could save your life

 

...convinces me you're on a wind up so I'm out.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

That extinguisher is Class A only. I agree with the effectiveness of water mist, although I’m a bit surprised at the low ratings of water mist extinguishers. If the fuel is burning freely in a car fire, the Brigade will concentrate on preventing the fire spreading, and let the fuel burn itself out. A car that needs Trumpton to put out a fire will be totally burnt out before they’re finished.

It's a US company so they can't suggest using a fine mist, (Same unit but different nozzle), on a non pool fuel fire, even if the fire brigade do just that. They can't even say that you can refill your extinguisher for legal reasons. 

Also the unit I have can send a fine jet right across the road, I think it is rated at 50ft, so once you have got safely clear there is no need to get near the actual fire to use it. Alas they do not make an adjustable nozzle one. If you read about water mist, (White cylinders), they are for electrical fires not boat fires, but do work well at close range on soft furniture etc.

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1 hour ago, Slow and Steady said:

I would also say that if you let off a powder extinguisher to aid escape you're as likely to make it harder to get out. Ever seen what happens in an enclosed space?

Alan will have a handy link to a video at his fingertips.

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37 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Yes but if you want to escape from a real fire rather than some minor smoke and a flame the size of a candle you need a better fire extinguisher with a longer range if required. Also what are you going to do if the fire involves another cabin or nearby boat, just sit there trying to figure out how long it will take the fire brigade to get to you and just listen to the occupants burn to death, because you can't open their hatch or door and then don't have any means of damping down the fire so that the occupants can be pulled out.

  Fires often spread because the fire extinguisher first used is just too small, so in many cases you will be able to put the fire out if you have an Amerex or similar. If the BSS thought you should just give up, get off and dial 999, they would not insist on a fire extinguisher.

I'm not contradicting fire department advice, I'm just suggesting you buy a real, not a toy extinguisher.

 

I'm guessing you are now on commission for Amerex.

 

If you can't open the hatch or door on another boat what use is any extinguisher going to be as a tool in rescuing them?

33 minutes ago, IanM said:

 

I was going to try and make a sensible reply to your post but this bit...

 

 

...convinces me you're on a wind up so I'm out.

 

 

 

Ditto, clearly some kind of troll.

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14 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

 

Oddly enough you can also use a fine mist water Amerex for a class C (Electrical) fire, BUT stay well clear of a 480V commercial units.

product-catalog.pdf (amerex-fire.com)

 

 

 

Water mist fire extinguishers using deionised water can be used on high voltage electrical systems up to 35,000 volts. I have project managed several installations at data centres, where they are used as they cause virtually no damage, are environmentally friendly and support human life.

 

https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/water-mist-extinguishers/

 

The only fires they are not approved for are classes A and B. This is more about the way the test is conducted than water mists ability to put out fires. Extinguishers for these classes of fires are tested by setting fire to a set amount of wood and when it is well ablaze seeing how long the extinguisher takes to out it out.

 

In most cases, water mist extinguishers are part of a fixed installation and their operation is controlled by smoke and heat detectors, so in this case the fire never really gets a chance to get really hold.

 

In my opinion they would be ideal for boats but it is unlikely to happen until they get class A & B fire approval.

Edited by cuthound
To add the last paragraph.
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2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Water mist fire extinguishers using deionised water can be used on high voltage electrical systems up to 35,000 volts. I have project managed several installations at data centres, where they are used as they cause virtually no damage, are environmentally friendly and support human life.

 

https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/water-mist-extinguishers/

 

The only fires they are not approved for are classes A and B. This is more about the way the test is conducted than water mists ability to put out fires. Extinguishers for these classes of fires are tested by setting fire to a set amount of wood and when it is well ablaze seeing how long the extinguisher takes to out it out.

 

In most cases, water mist extinguishers are part of a fixed installation and their operation is controlled by smoke and heat detectors, so in this case the fire never really gets a chance to get really hold.

 

In my opinion they would be ideal for boats but it is unlikely to happen until they get class A & B fire approval.

Thanks for that reply, and the portable water based refillable fire extinguishers are only supplied with a long range jet, or a fine spray which is not a true mist like the white class C ones, which is why I would not go near any electrical fire with more than 240V using a converted extinguisher like the one I have, also they get filled with normal tap water which is a better conductor. 

In certification terms, adjustable nozzles are only allowed for hoses or extinguishers used by qualified fire crew, and they don't approve one for use against fuel fires due to the risk of using it on a frying pan or pool of fuel. 

Amerex did have a dealer in the UK, but very few private boat owners buy their extinguishers as they are expensive, partly due to import fees.

 

Most boaters that own or fit small dry powder fire extinguishers have never used one, and have not watched the training video clips which show just how problematic they can be in a confined space. In one clip that involved a variety of different types of small extinguisher including foam and CO2  on typical boat and light aircraft fires boat, the winner was a fire blanket, not an extinguisher. 

 

I would never allow petrol cans on any boat I own or skipper, as putting out a leaking can of petrol in a locker is far more difficult than putting out a diesel or oil fire. The only real difficulty is the incredible amount of thick smoke that such fires generate can make finding the source very difficult. In that situation a hose set to fine spray and simply dropped into the locker does work, partly because if you cool off the area that is on fire below 50C the diesel stops burning. If you have a simple adjustable slinky hose with a brass nozzle that can be adjusted to fine spray or jet, simply dropping it into the locker or engine bay and running away often works, whereas playing around with a few small dry powder bottles will probably get you burnt or gassed by the fumes. I would note that lifting up a locker lid if the contents is burning might not be a good idea. A real good boat should have fire ports that you can unscrew, or smash, then you put the nozzle through the fire port and turn it on.

 

What I can't understand is why they do not seem to be selling small foam extinguishers, only full size ones.

 

Repeat of link, as it's a real good one:

Water Mist Extinguishers – UK Fire Service Resources

 

WOW! stunned to read it will do a deep fat fire and electric, so this is a real general purpose one. 

 

Pressure cookers on boats:

If you want to cook safely in a small boat at sea, in a marina or even in a canal, use a stainless pressure cooker, particularly if your crew are not used to boats and how they roll when effected by the wake of a passing boat, BUT throw the weight away! 

  Even if your canal is so narrow and everyone sticks to the speed limit, it's still safer to use a weight free pressure cooker. Even if your cooker has gimbals, they can easily be exceeded, or some clown simply drops the pot. 

Edited by TNLI
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In my opinion they would be ideal for boats but it is unlikely to happen until they get class A & B fire approval.

 

Try clicking on the link and reading all about water mist extinguishers before posting your comment.

 

Better link: 

Water Mist Fire Extinguishers - For Most Types of Fire (safelincs.co.uk)

 

Water Mist - Amerex Fire Systems (amerex-fire.com)

 

A, B and C !!

 

 

Change Now to Broad-Spectrum Water Mist Fire Extinguishers

Our water mist extinguishers discharge de-ionised water in a super fine spray to form a mist jet. They have a broader fire-fighting capability than powder, foam or wet chemical extinguishers.

 

Now if I was buying a fire extinguisher for a canal boat, I would probably opt for water mist, possibly from Safelincs.

 

 

Edited by TNLI
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38 minutes ago, TNLI said:

In my opinion they would be ideal for boats but it is unlikely to happen until they get class A & B fire approval.

 

Try clicking on the link and reading all about water mist extinguishers before posting your comment.

 

Better link: 

Water Mist Fire Extinguishers - For Most Types of Fire (safelincs.co.uk)

 

Water Mist - Amerex Fire Systems (amerex-fire.com)

 

A, B and C !!

 

How many of these, and of what size, would you need to meet the BSS requirements (e.g. for boats over 35 feet, minimum 3 extinguishers each rated 5A/34B?).

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2 hours ago, alias said:

 

How many of these, and of what size, would you need to meet the BSS requirements (e.g. for boats over 35 feet, minimum 3 extinguishers each rated 5A/34B?).

None of them - even the 6 litre is only 13A/21B, so in the eyes of the BSS doesn’t count as a fire extinguisher.

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