Woodburners in Bedrooms

[TNLI]

1 hour ago, tree monkey said:

Is he really suggesting that as suitable for a boat, I just might be happy to use that under supervision on a patio away from anything flammable but not within a 100 miles of my boat

If you read my last post I specifically warn that the chimney is no good, and it is for above deck use. I even made a comment about the mental health status of anyone installing such a stove/heater below decks. The bad thing is they suggest it should be used in a tent, which would be an unsafe idea. There is no manufacturers mark on the unit, and no one can find out who made it. The main danger is not from wood, but using charcoal or BBcue bricks. Oddly enough it works very well, but you do need to keep feeding it with small bits of wood. 

  I probably should point out that my decks are alloy plated and I do use a tray under my wood or paraffin stoves.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, TNLI said:

The insurance game is a complicated one, as it depends on the type of insurance policy and what the boat is made of in addition to the material, wood or wood-epoxy boats, (I quite like wood epoxy builds but only if the epoxy glass job is on the outside only. My topside are wood with fiberglass construction panels or alloy non slip plates), is not popular if you are trying to get full agreed value hull insurance. For commercial use or renting out, including the B&B sites, you will probably find a survey is required every year. 

 

  Even if you are a private owner and only need 3rd party, it's a real good idea to get the entire boat surveyed, as it's very easy to miss something important out that could have serious consequences. Some of the worst hull survey results have seen were for new plastic boats, as they had voids all over the place, and in one case I remember that resulted in a total write off, in another a new alloy boat had been painted with Copper based anti fouling, (I think someone in the yard did not like the owners), and had a section of Cooper water pipe at the very bottom of the bilge. I thought it would take a year or so to damage the hull, but it was written off by a surveyor only 2 months after leaving the yard. 

Very few canal boats are now built of wood or wood epoxy, very few are even glass fibre, a majority are steel. We dont float around in the med with a solid fuel stove blasting away.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, TNLI said:

If you read my last post I specifically warn that the chimney is no good, and it is for above deck use. I even made a comment about the mental health status of anyone installing such a stove/heater below decks. The bad thing is they suggest it should be used in a tent, which would be an unsafe idea. There is no manufacturers mark on the unit, and no one can find out who made it. The main danger is not from wood, but using charcoal or BBcue bricks. Oddly enough it works very well, but you do need to keep feeding it with small bits of wood. 

  I probably should point out that my decks are alloy plated and I do use a tray under my wood or paraffin stoves.

 

Regardless one of those has no place on a narrowboat.

 

Why are you cluttering up this forum with such nonsense?

[TNLI]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Very few canal boats are now built of wood or wood epoxy, very few are even glass fibre, a majority are steel. We dont float around in the med with a solid fuel stove blasting away.

Surprised that steel is now the material of choice. My last boat was steel but I sold it because the design of the keel made it impossible to clean or remove all of the rust from the inside, and the original builder had not used enough coats of epoxy primer. Much easier to keep the inside of a canal boat with its flattish bottom clean on the inside in rust terms, as long as they have not designed the interior fit to make that difficult, in the way that many designs make engine access very restrictive. Obviously in fuel economy and heating terms steel is not the best material. The cost of fitting good fire proof insulation to help reduce the heating costs and damp issues must be interesting. Using the cheap stuff is not good, as it absorbs oil and some just fall apart completely in the end. Not figured out which material to line my boat with yet, partly because the products sold as not flammable are flammable, even a sample I purchased from a certified builders merchant caught fire when tested.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

3 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Ah yes - the quality and standard is clearly way superior to a Morso Squirrel we had on the boat or our (British made) Charnwood C5 we have at home.

 

If only I'd known I could have saved hundreds.

 

 

The bird feeder for a chimney cap is a new idea. (and completely nuts 🤪)

[ditchcrawler]

24 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Surprised that steel is now the material of choice. My last boat was steel but I sold it because the design of the keel made it impossible to clean or remove all of the rust from the inside, and the original builder had not used enough coats of epoxy primer. Much easier to keep the inside of a canal boat with its flattish bottom clean on the inside in rust terms, as long as they have not designed the interior fit to make that difficult, in the way that many designs make engine access very restrictive. Obviously in fuel economy and heating terms steel is not the best material. The cost of fitting good fire proof insulation to help reduce the heating costs and damp issues must be interesting. Using the cheap stuff is not good, as it absorbs oil and some just fall apart completely in the end. Not figured out which material to line my boat with yet, partly because the products sold as not flammable are flammable, even a sample I purchased from a certified builders merchant caught fire when tested.

I give in, Bye I will leave you to it.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I give in, Bye I will leave you to it.

 

Its just beyond stupid, ignorant and being metally challenged - I 'pulled out' a few days ago.

[jonathanA]

Come on guys there is entertainment value in this and the BMC thread 😄

 

Certainly made me laugh but then I'm a nit picker apparently 

 

So long as no-one is taking anything he says seriously.... 

[Tony Brooks]

27 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Come on guys there is entertainment value in this and the BMC thread 😄

 

Certainly made me laugh but then I'm a nit picker apparently 

 

So long as no-one is taking anything he says seriously.... 

 

To me that is the problem. His posting style seem to give  the air of authority unless you know a bit about the subject.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

To me that is the problem. His posting style seem to give  the air of authority unless you know a bit about the subject.

He’s a complete eccentric. 
I know nothing about what he’s on about and I’m not sure he does either. 
I doubt anyone with little or no subject knowledge is taking any notice because it all just comes across as complete bonkers. 
 

 I do admire the perseverance he has with his projects and I hope he remains safely on land. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Goliath

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, TNLI said:

The first link is some type of EU related advertising

OK. Here is the British Standards Institute's online shop selling the same document:

https://shop.bsigroup.com/products/code-of-practice-for-the-installation-of-solid-fuel-heating-and-cooking-appliances-in-small-craft/standard

[Ianws]

On 04/04/2022 at 15:01, TNLI said:

I have definitely failed to understand how bad things are as regards the unsafe installations on canal boats. I have done 3 canal boat charters, one on the K & A, one mostly along the upper Thames, and the other on the Oxford canal, in addition to the Panama canal Westbound.

 

Most of the coal/wood stoves were on private canal boats and had no approval. If you know of a stove that can be used for multi fuels like diesel, gas or wood, please post a link. 

 

Lots of things relating to small boat safety are Iffy, and the vast majority means the BSS or insurance inspection folks are out to lunch or short handed, so that does leave too many floating bombs and CO gas chambers, and I'm not a fan of any gas for cooking unless it's Hydrogen, which alas requires expensive new burners, fairly pricey bottles or electrical gas generators. Hydrogen for cooking is a real safe fuel to use in comparison with Propane. Alas there is only one company making real nice stainless stoves and cookers that burn Hydrogen in the UK, and they are far too expensive at present. Hydrogen itself is not too expensive, but the bottles have to be specially lined to prevent corrosion, so cost more. Hydrogen generators are the cheaper way to go if you have spare power.

 

I've no idea what you mean by approval or approved, in relation to stoves and boats. There are recommendations for what might be suitable based on output etc. but no directives. When it comes to the fitting of the stove it is more rigorous.

[GUMPY]

2 hours ago, TNLI said:

Surprised that steel is now the material of choice. My last boat was steel but I sold it because the design of the keel made it impossible to clean or remove all of the rust from the inside, and the original builder had not used enough coats of epoxy primer. Much easier to keep the inside of a canal boat with its flattish bottom clean on the inside in rust terms, as long as they have not designed the interior fit to make that difficult, in the way that many designs make engine access very restrictive. Obviously in fuel economy and heating terms steel is not the best material. The cost of fitting good fire proof insulation to help reduce the heating costs and damp issues must be interesting. Using the cheap stuff is not good, as it absorbs oil and some just fall apart completely in the end. Not figured out which material to line my boat with yet, partly because the products sold as not flammable are flammable, even a sample I purchased from a certified builders merchant caught fire when tested.

This post really shows you just dont have a fekin clue about canal boats.

Oh and to help you on your way sprayfoam works well for insulation and if done properly prevents damp.

[Ianws]

I was wondering why he was keen on a stove that only heats the air outside the boat. Then I remembered a post about the best form of heating is heating your body not the space around it. If you had to live in the same hydrogen/fusion, or whatever,  powered heat suit 24/7 for 4 months of the year it could get unpleasant. If it's electric that's another thing to recharge/ have to replace. 

 

For surviving after a nuclear war it sounds like a possible plan but not for everyday living. 

[TNLI]

15 minutes ago, Loddon said:

This post really shows you just dont have a fekin clue about canal boats.

Oh and to help you on your way sprayfoam works well for insulation and if done properly prevents damp.

I've never said I was an expert on canal boats, or the rather lower standards that many private owners think are OK. Oddly enough some expensive boats that were designed to be unsinkable used 2 component foam between 2 layers of Fiberlam or plastic, (I don't like Polyester resins, just real good Epoxy). Alas that foam started to absorb water and most of the boats that were not dried out on a regular basis started to flex so badly they had to be rebuilt without the foam or scrapped in a few cases. That resulted in most designers that were trying for an unsinkable rating to give up on sandwich type hulls, (Using plywood between 2 layers of fiberglass was very popular for a while, until they started to suffer hull flex and delamination issues). Some designers and builders have actually turned to ping pong balls in nets for removable economic floatation in some cases, and alloy bubble wrap. Alas I can't find the type of non flammable bubble wrap to use at present, so I'm going to line the hull with some fire resistant alloy wrap from a good builders merchant, and then cover that with slats of softwood painted in fire retardant primer, before top coating with Danboline bilge paint low down, or normal exterior paint from Wilcos, who stock some very good own label paints.

  Thermal insulation is important if you want to keep your boat warm in winter, and some of the older foam and alloy type liners eventually absorb water or oil in particular and then fail to act as good thermal insulators. Apart from the need to reline some older boats, (Some foams start to fail after only a few years if you buy a real bad new build), any glass ports do need to be temporarily double glazed. That can be done with cheap Perspex that is available cut to different diameters online and cheap clear bathroom sealant, unless the ports or frames are made of stainless, (Acetic acid corrodes stainless), when you should use a cheap silicon sealant that does not smell of vinegar.

[Richard10002]

On 01/04/2022 at 22:29, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In your rush to correct your errors you forgot to remove this link which is for non-boat approved alarms.

????

 

"Certified to BS EN50291-1:2010+A1:2012 & BS EN50291-2:2010"

[GUMPY]

15 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Thermal insulation is important if you want to keep your boat warm in winter, and some of the older foam and alloy type liners eventually absorb water or oil in particular and then fail to act as good thermal insulators.

Three words

Closed Cell Foam.

Its what my 29 year old boat has as thermal insulation and the boat is warm and dry, there is a clue in the name Spray Foam it doesnt come in sheets but is sprayed onto the steel.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Loddon

[Richard10002]

15 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

????

 

"Certified to BS EN50291-1:2010+A1:2012 & BS EN50291-2:2010"

 

From Fire Angel themselves:

 

https://www.fireangel.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/CO-9X-Data-Sheet.pdf

 

"Certified to BS EN50291-1:2010+A1:2012 BS EN50291-2:2010"

 

 

[TNLI]

1 hour ago, Ianws said:

I was wondering why he was keen on a stove that only heats the air outside the boat. Then I remembered a post about the best form of heating is heating your body not the space around it. If you had to live in the same hydrogen/fusion, or whatever,  powered heat suit 24/7 for 4 months of the year it could get unpleasant. If it's electric that's another thing to recharge/ have to replace. 

 

For surviving after a nuclear war it sounds like a possible plan but not for everyday living. 

The only time you plug in is when you feel cold in the case of bunk or berth heating, and the NiCads in the better jackets will last nearly 8 hours if you are outside. I know a few locals that are using heated jackets whilst living in unheated flats, and they go to the public library and plug in for several hours a day. 

 

The wood/charcoal burners are safe to use if you have a centre or larger aft cockpit area, just like the gas barbie that seem very common in summer and are far more dangerous in Propane storage, leak or CO terms than an above decks wood burner if the deck is steel or alloy, or a big protection plate for the cinders or any ash spills is in use. It does help to have an awning and wind break system, for rainy or windy days.

 

Oddly enough using human warmth by wrapping yourself in bubble wrap does work, BUT you finish up with a damp clothing problem if you seal all of the air out for too long. There are some expensive high tech materials similar to Gortex that allow just enough air to leak through to prevent the damp issue occurring if used with the correct liner.

 

Heated suits are not exactly new, as the US Air Force developed some very good ones for their bomber crews at the end of WW2, and those worked well down to minus 25C.

 

The other option to reduce heating bills is to make a temporary thermal tent around the bunk, berth or even hammock. That way you can heat the reduced area with just a few very small 12V demister fans and a few heated dog blankets, although you do need a tube from the outside to near your face. I've slept in one whilst working in Switzerland in a farmers mountain hut and was nice and warm.

  The other bit of advice for cold weather, is to see if you can buy a real bear or furry animal skin. The bear ones are the best and then buy a furry head and neck type hat. I slept with that type of bed cover in an unheated room that was below zero on the inside without ever getting cold, even though there was ice forming inside on some colder nights. I did have a German alpine sleeping bag under me to help reduce heat loss through the old mattress. If you do that don't forget to keep a drink bottle inside the bed, as drinking frozen water is not easy.

[Ange]

Is this a wind up? April 1st has been and gone.

[TNLI]

3 hours ago, Loddon said:

Three words

Closed Cell Foam.

Its what my 29 year old boat has as thermal insulation and the boat is warm and dry, there is a clue in the name Spray Foam it doesnt come in sheets but is sprayed onto the steel.

Alas closed cell foam suffers from a type of osmosis if used where it can get damp, it does take some years and spraying it onto steel rather than using panels, or a plastic liner sheet stops you being able to check for rust. There are some types that are good as they contain fire retardant chemicals so do not burn, but I've not heard of any in use by normal boat builders. The rest smoulder for a while then burn, producing very toxic fumes. Some builders do cover them with a more fire proof covering. 

  There must be at least a dozen different types and the only ones that are safe are all just as expensive as good quality alloy foam panels, (They contain fire resistant closed cell foam between the 2 alloy layers). Alas in the real world you get fuel or oil leaks, so if you use the real good safe types of foam, it's still a no go for use around the bilges or over the flat bottom area. I had to remove some from an engine bay once, and it was soaked in engine oil, although it does take years for that to occur. It's a no go for an alloy boat that has welded or riveted panels, due to an inability to check for cracked welds or botched up repairs. For a new build the hull survey would need to be done before it's spayed on. Otherwise there is a risk the steel was not primed before use.

  If you are building a steel boat and plan to use foam, it's a really good idea to do a simple fire and smoke test, as no one ever seems to check the so called fire rating is correct. I've done that several times in the last few years and one old sample did not burn, even with a blow lamp, it did not even smoke. Alas it was from an old RNLI offshore boat, and would be very expensive to use.

  

Edited April 6, 2022 by TNLI

[Ange]

Definitely having a laugh!  Why didn't we think of getting one of these!

[TNLI]

Yep, just gut it and carve out the interior before filling with maggots to get rid of all of the actual meat. The face mask Hannibal Lecter wore might look better than a skinned Skunk with 3 holes in it, but it will help to reduce the risk of being shot by a park ranger whist on a winter holiday to Alaska or Canada. If you have some serious spare dosh, nothing beats a real Polar bear skin, cos the hairs are hollow. 

[NB Esk]

3 hours ago, TNLI said:

Yep, just gut it and carve out the interior before filling with maggots to get rid of all of the actual meat. The face mask Hannibal Lecter wore might look better than a skinned Skunk with 3 holes in it, but it will help to reduce the risk of being shot by a park ranger whist on a winter holiday to Alaska or Canada. If you have some serious spare dosh, nothing beats a real Polar bear skin, cos the hairs are hollow. 

Always look forward to reading your individual and informative posts.

 

Could you clarify something that might help explain your style?  You give your location as “ Foundry Arms, Poole “, that’s a pub, right?

 

 

 

[TNLI]

3 hours ago, NB Esk said:

Always look forward to reading your individual and informative posts.

 

Could you clarify something that might help explain your style?  You give your location as “ Foundry Arms, Poole “, that’s a pub, right?

 

 

 

I was there until last week, but have moved to a yard just outside Portland marina to start on some more serious parts of the build. Alas my beloved pre-abused BMC 1500D is still back at the crank specialist for a full bottom end job, and plan to move to a marina someplace on the Norfolk Broads, preferably not too far from the sea. If I'm testing a boat for defects, in design or build terms, the canal locks are going to be an issue. Might also stay in Portland if I can dodge the expensive marina fees. The rig plan is for a simple hinged A frame with a Lanteen option, although a loose footed Lanteen rig can easily be converted to a square sail. Ultimately my boat will be left to a local charity that is going to try and provide an economic offshore capable self righting and unsinkable, (If the side lockers are stuffed with used lifejackets and light pasta), fishing or rescue boat that is very cheap to build, sail or maintain, and based on a readily available used ships lifeboat hull and engine. The present build is based on an offshore ships lifeboat in the sixties, that was gutted.

 

  The UK fisheries protection, border control, Police and even Royal Navy, need to plan for a new world where we will need to defend our waters from illegal fishing, drug & people runners or worse, The RNLI will also need assistance on occasions where one of hundreds of cheap but sea worthy full displacement boats stationed all around the edge of UK waters arrives first on the scene of an incident. The present patrol boats are far too expensive, too large and too addicted to guzzling diesel to be practical for an on station boat. Sort WW2 trawler chain that spotted and reported U boats, carried out rescues and even caught a few fish. The offshore RNLI boats cost around 5 million each and spend most of their time in port. I could build around 50 to 100 boats for the price of one RNLI offshore boat.