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Illegal to use red diesel for boat propulsion


Alan de Enfield

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23 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Running diesels on vegetable oli is not new. I have a book on diesel engines published in 1912. The author got Dr. Diesel himself to contribute the preface, in which the good doctor  mentions that, at an international exhibition in Paris in 1900, one of his unmodified engines had been successfully run throughout on peanut oil, and that this opened up the possibility of diesel engines still being able to be run by using energy derived from the sun after the world's supplies of oil from the earth had been exhausted. Of course, engines were simpler then.

Pollution wasn't thought of as life limiting and bad! In fact it meant that the workers died young so wernt a drain on society 

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Not, I believe 100% true: at least at bone stage the relevant Govt authorities held that the retailer had a duty to not collude with self evidently false declarations. For instance, if a boat turned up using its engine and asked for 0% split then the retailer might be said to be colluding. It was certainly said with enough conviction to persuade some marinas never to accept 0% (1% would be OK!)

A couple of years ago I filled up at a marina where all the customer declarations were in a book on the counter. Flicking through I could see that almost all were for 0% propulsion, and the chap behind the desk strongly hinted that I would be a fool if I put anything else down, although it was of course my decision.

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

The counter argument there is that the boater is required to declare the intended use i.e. the planned, future use of the fuel being bought now, not the historical use of the previous purchase. So it is perfectly feasible for a boater to turn up running on 60/40 and buy a stock of fuel intended for wholly domestic use. 

Only if you can convince the retailer that you intend to tow your boat away from his site without turning on the engine to assist!

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10 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Only if you can convince the retailer that you intend to tow your boat away from his site without turning on the engine to assist!

But you would still have had some duty paid propulsion diesel in the tank when you turned up so you could use that to pull away. 🙂

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3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Only if you can convince the retailer that you intend to tow your boat away from his site without turning on the engine to assist!

In the original guidance it said it was permissible to move the boat from the mooring to the filling point and back and still claim 100% domestic if it goes nowhere else.

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

In the original guidance it said it was permissible to move the boat from the mooring to the filling point and back and still claim 100% domestic if it goes nowhere else.

 

Interesting to note that in the current legislation it is permissible to fill with 100% domestic if the boat is based on a residential mooring with proof such as council tax bill. 

 

How far one would be able to travel I don't know. 

 

It seems likely that one will be just buying gasoil from a supplier and they won't be alll that concerned what you do with it. 

 

The coal boats do that and hopefully will continue to trade as they have been doing for a long time. 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Interesting to note that in the current legislation it is permissible to fill with 100% domestic if the boat is based on a residential mooring with proof such as council tax bill. 

Its also legal for everyone else ;)

 

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On 27/03/2022 at 09:48, dmr said:

They are sort of correct because they will not be collecting the propulsion duty?. Going to the petrol station with Jerry cans and buying red diesel that you intend to use for propulsion is a bit of a grey area???? I assume if they knowingly sell propulsion diesel then they could be in trouble, I think most petrol stations are selling on a "no questions asked" basis?

I've been asked, and one one occasion had to include car reg on a form, I just said heating, another guy said agricultural when asked, so they do ask,  one garage only sold red on weekdays, to prevent pikey fraud, so there must be fairly stringent control in the system. 

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34 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I've been asked, and one one occasion had to include car reg on a form, I just said heating, another guy said agricultural when asked, so they do ask,  one garage only sold red on weekdays, to prevent pikey fraud, so there must be fairly stringent control in the system. 

Do people not commit fraud during the week then? :) 

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes they do, but obviously Pikeys don't.

So Alan our local red diesel suppliers have just confirmed this no more red diesel will be supplied to them anymore, I know the owner well and he is devastated as it was his biggest seller which tells you where it was all going doesn't it?

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

So Alan our local red diesel suppliers have just confirmed this no more red diesel will be supplied to them anymore, I know the owner well and he is devastated as it was his biggest seller which tells you where it was all going doesn't it?

 

No more red will be supplied to the 'pikeys' by your friend, or the supplier will no longer supply your friend ?

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No more red will be supplied to the 'pikeys' by your friend, or the supplier will no longer supply your friend ?

Apollo won't be supplying him with it anymore! My mate is just back from the other garage that sells it same story, it's obvious where it's been going so the easiest thing to do for HMRC is to cut off the supply job done 

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On 28/03/2022 at 08:54, magnetman said:

At the end of the day it is a Good News story if this promotes more use of electric propulsion systems. 

 

Although I like the old BOLINDERS engines and similar I would not miss the noise of a modern diesel with a cheap silencer on it. 

 

Electric canal boats obviously a huge challenge but would be quite nice. 

 

I did see NB SPEY (Clayton's tar boat) the other day and the BOLINDERS was running happily on HVO which was interesting. 

 

 

 

 

It actually runs considerably better on HVO and the fuel supply settings are now as per manufacturer's spec – the first time this has been achieved since being acquired by the syndicate 50 years ago!

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  • 1 month later...

Since the Act came in on April 1st. What is now the situation regarding the legal use of Red Diesel in canal craft ? 

 

I was listening to HM RC giving a talk to farmers at the NEC yesterday at the LAMMA Show. For farmers there seem to be many cases where they can use red diesel and others where they cannot. It is a complex mix that kept the inspectors answering questions long after their presentation had finished.

 

4.7 % of the UK population may live in Wales, but Whitby is better !

Edited by Heartland
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I was talking to the marina manager during the week and he was saying they can't use red for the sit on mower or tractor for pulling boats out anymore so he is considering putting in a tank for white.  I suggested he look in to switching to hvo.

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6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

so how do they get from field to field

 

 

More pertinently, once a drop of red diesel has been used in the tractor it can never be used again on the road whatever fuel was put in it last, as the marker chemical persists (apparently).

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34 minutes ago, Heartland said:

He also said farmers couldn't drive their tractors on the road with red

 

That is what the HMRC inspectors said

I think that's always been the case except for some specific cases / limited distance.

 

E.g moving between fields or farm to field.

 

They are expected to use white if they are contracting and using the roads iirc

Edited by jonathanA
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The whole thing is not a can of worms, its a Tesco bag full of eels.

I will carry on as I have for 50 years regardless.

 

It will be very interesting to see how these regulations are policed, I suspect not enthusiastically.

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20 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

More pertinently, once a drop of red diesel has been used in the tractor it can never be used again on the road whatever fuel was put in it last, as the marker chemical persists (apparently).

I think this a bit of urban mythology....seems completely unworkable to me ... I wouldn't expect to change or steam clean my 30 year old tractors fuel tank if I needed to use for non agricultural purposes and so put white in the tank.  ( I do have a 30 year old road legal tractor just to be clear)

Red diesel reality check:
Accepted use:
“A farmer transporting his livestock from the farm to the mart for sale at auction.”
Non accepted use:
“Farmers using red diesel for charity tractor runs.

 

Apologies @MtB I stand corrected ...just found this

 

From April, some farmers will need supplies of both non-rebated fuel and rebated fuel. To stay compliant, farmers will need to use white diesel or alternative fuel for non-permitted jobs, to drain and flush out machinery tanks between permitted and non-permitted jobs and keep separate storage tanks for rebated and non-rebated fuel. HMRC will have the power to spot-check and issue fines or seize machinery from farmers who break the rules.
When hiring machinery, particularly if the machinery is likely to be used on construction sites too, farmers should check if there is an obligation from the hire company to use white diesel instead of red. 

Edited by jonathanA
Added info
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