Illegal to use red diesel for boat propulsion

[Alan de Enfield]

I think someone has not read the new rules correctly .....................

 

 

 

[BEngo]

Unless the pumps are in Northern Ireland.

 

N

[dmr]

They are sort of correct because they will not be collecting the propulsion duty?. Going to the petrol station with Jerry cans and buying red diesel that you intend to use for propulsion is a bit of a grey area???? I assume if they knowingly sell propulsion diesel then they could be in trouble, I think most petrol stations are selling on a "no questions asked" basis?

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

They are sort of correct because they will not be collecting the propulsion duty?. Going to the petrol station with Jerry cans and buying red diesel that you intend to use for propulsion is a bit of a grey area???? I assume if they knowingly sell propulsion diesel then they could be in trouble, I think most petrol stations are selling on a "no questions asked" basis?

 

It's not a grey area at all.  If the supplier is not registered to sell to boats - and therefore collect the extra duty as you say - then they are not allowed to sell it for marine use.

 

Whether the person working on the till knows this is another matter!

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, dmr said:

They are sort of correct because they will not be collecting the propulsion duty?. Going to the petrol station with Jerry cans and buying red diesel that you intend to use for propulsion is a bit of a grey area???? I assume if they knowingly sell propulsion diesel then they could be in trouble, I think most petrol stations are selling on a "no questions asked" basis?

 

A very good point.

[MtB]

Is it still the case that the "Intended use" at the point of sale is what counts (as it did under the old rules)?

 

So if you genuinely buy red diesel to heat your boat, van, workshop, tractor cab, house or whatever, this is fine. Then you change your mind about what to use it for some while later?

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It's not a grey area at all.  If the supplier is not registered to sell to boats - and therefore collect the extra duty as you say - then they are not allowed to sell it for marine use.

 

Whether the person working on the till knows this is another matter!

 

But very difficult to monitor or enforce.

Someone turns up with a couple of Jerry cans and fills them up with "Red", how does the person on the till know if they are a farmer or a boat owner ?

 

 

 

 

 

Or .................

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

Is it still the case that the "Intended use" at the point of sale is what counts (as it did under the old rules)?

 

So if you genuinely buy red diesel to heat your boat, van, workshop, tractor cab, house or whatever, this is fine. Then you change your mind about what to use it for some while later?

That will maybe debated in court one day, much like Murder/manslaughter is.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

That will maybe debated in court one day, much like Murder/manslaughter is.

 

That may well be the case if they find someone totally taking the piss, e.g. a building firm buying thousands of litres a week to heat the cabs of their JCBs then routinely changing their minds and running their engines on it.

 

But prosecuting a handful of boaters for a few dozen litres seems pretty unlikely every month or two? Not worth the effortt when they will have bigger fish to fry. Even the court would probably say they were wasting its time for the same reason.

[Bee]

I think it is possible to filter red through fullers earth to get the dye out (and probably to leave a load of grit in it)  Bentonite clay is apparently the stuff but I have never tried it and the cost of injection equipment means I never will.

[mrsmelly]

16 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

That may well be the case if they find someone totally taking the piss, e.g. a building firm buying thousands of litres a week to heat the cabs of their JCBs then routinely changing their minds and running their engines on it.

 

But prosecuting a handful of boaters for a few dozen litres seems pretty unlikely every month or two? Not worth the effortt when they will have bigger fish to fry. Even the court would probably say they were wasting its time for the same reason.

Yes, I agree. The last umpteen years of self declaration etc has also been a nonsense.

[magnetman]

The law now says that red diesel can be used for refuelling all boats in UK except northern Ireland so why would it be a problem? 

 

From .gov

 

"...

restrict the entitlement to use red diesel and rebated biofuels from April 2022 to the following qualifying purposes:

• for vehicles and machinery used in agriculture, horticulture, fish farming and forestry. This includes allowing vehicles used for agriculture to be used for cutting verges and hedges, snow clearance and gritting roads
• to propel passenger, freight or maintenance vehicles designed to run on rail tracks
• for heating and electricity generation in non-commercial premises - this includes the heating of homes and buildings such as places of worship, hospitals and townhalls; off-grid power generation; and non-propulsion uses on permanently-moored houseboats
• for maintaining community amateur sports clubs as well as golf courses (including activities such as ground maintenance, and the heating and lighting of clubhouses, changing rooms etc.)
• as fuel for all marine craft refuelling and operating in the UK (including fishing and water freight industries), except for propelling private pleasure craft in Northern Ireland
• for powering the machinery (including caravans) of travelling fairs and circuses."

Boats can use red diesel as fuel. Seems pretty clear ?

 

Actually it says "Marine Craft" I wonder if this means salt water use. Didn't think of that. 

[Lady M]

To sell red diesel to boats and collect the duty declared for propulsion use, it is necessary to be a Registered Dealer in Controlled Oils.  I have no idea if this applies to vehicle fuel stations.

[magnetman]

Yes obviously the RDCO thing is needed but presumably this applies to any outlet be it a BP garage or a man on an old narrow boat. 

 

I suppose it's possible that someone with a forecourt might not want people to turn up with trolleys and 20 litre containers from a cleanliness point of view. Perhaps more probability of spillage occurring and making the forecourt area dangerous/more regular cleaning etc. 

 

Presumably a fuel station has the right to refuse to sell fuel if they think there is a health and safety hazard associated with the way the fuel is being transferred. 

5 minutes ago, Lady C said:

To sell red diesel to boats and collect the duty declared for propulsion use, it is necessary to be a Registered Dealer in Controlled Oils.  I have no idea if this applies to vehicle fuel stations.

I wondered if the new law I quoted above superceded the "declaration of use" thing. 

 

It is quite clear wording. For refuelling all marine craft. Obviously the term marine craft is interesting but to me it says I can buy red diesel and put it in my boat. Not relevant any more what I am using it for. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by magnetman

[Alan de Enfield]

37 minutes ago, Bee said:

I think it is possible to filter red through fullers earth to get the dye out (and probably to leave a load of grit in it)  Bentonite clay is apparently the stuff but I have never tried it and the cost of injection equipment means I never will.

 

These days it is not only a red dye that is added but a "chemical marker" that cannot be removed.

 

When it was a simple red dye, products were sold on ebay that could remove the colour (basically 'bleach' the fuel).

[jonathanA]

What are the other changes in the use of red that are about to come into effect  ?

 

My local garage sells red but say the same not legal for road use or inland water craft. They're quite happy to sell me or let me fill up 20L tubs so long as its for use in my tractor (which I do have ) or for use in genies or other plant 

Edited March 27, 2022 by jonathanA
Clarify

[Ronaldo47]

I remember reading that, during WWII, spivs found that the carbon filters of gas masks were very effective removers of the dye from fuel. 

[GUMPY]

9 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

What are the other changes in the use of red that are about to come into effect  ?

 

My local garage sells red but say the same not legal for road use or inland water craft. They're quite happy to sell me or let me fill up 20L tubs so long as its for use in my tractor (which I do have ) or for use in genies or other plant 

After 1/4/22 it will not be legal to use red in plant. My local plant hire will be charging to clean plant fuel tanks and dispose of the fuel  if plant is returned with red in the tanks they are going White only.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

What are the other changes in the use of red that are about to come into effect  ?

 

It is worth you sepnding some time researching ...........

 

Agricultural use (some) are OK with Red - but if for example you are carting sugar beet to the factory on the road it is no longer agricultral but 'freight'.

Golf course can use Red

Industry and construction cannot use Red

Generators cannot use Red

If you are using your tractor to clear snow, or cut roadside verges you can use Red.

 

There are all sorts of rules and minutia (if you are doing X then you must do Y) that need to be understood.

 

Check on the .Gov website and read it your self rather than 2nd hand interpration from some weirdo on the internet.

 

Check when rebated fuel can be used - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

There are 100s of pages of 'small print' in addition to the above link.

Sailing, boating and marine transport

You can use rebated fuel in all types of boat, except for private pleasure craft in Northern Ireland. This includes in their engines and in other machines and appliances permanently on the boat.

You cannot put rebated fuel into the fuel supply of the engine of a private pleasure craft in Northern Ireland.

If you buy rebated fuel for private pleasure craft in Great Britain, you will be required to pay the additional duty on the proportion of the fuel you will use to propel the craft.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It is worth you sepnding some time researching ...........

 

Agricultural use (some) are OK with Red - but if for example you are carting sugar beet to the factory on the road it is no longer agricultral but 'freight'.

Golf course can use Red

Industry and construction cannot use Red

Generators cannot use Red

If you are using your tractor to clear snow, or cut roadside verges you can use Red.

 

There are all sorts of rules and minutia (if you are doing X then you must do Y) that need to be understood.

 

Check on the .Gov website and read it your self rather than 2nd hand interpration from some weirdo on the internet.

 

Check when rebated fuel can be used - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

There are 100s of pages of 'small print' in addition to the above link.

Sailing, boating and marine transport

You can use rebated fuel in all types of boat, except for private pleasure craft in Northern Ireland. This includes in their engines and in other machines and appliances permanently on the boat.

You cannot put rebated fuel into the fuel supply of the engine of a private pleasure craft in Northern Ireland.

If you buy rebated fuel for private pleasure craft in Great Britain, you will be required to pay the additional duty on the proportion of the fuel you will use to propel the craft.

 

 

Its interesting if like me you have solar and a genny all the diesel is for domestic, however remove the solar and I suspect you would have to pay propulsion duty?

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Its interesting if like me you have solar and a genny all the diesel is for domestic, however remove the solar and I suspect you would have to pay propulsion duty?

 

Indeed thats why I suggested he reads the ACTUAL RULES rather than a biased interpretation saying 'yes you can'.

 

There are lots of "if this is being done then this must be used" when you would have thought it was clear-cut.

[Machpoint005]

37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

>> If you buy rebated fuel for private pleasure craft in Great Britain, you will be required to pay the additional duty on the proportion of the fuel you will use to propel the craft. <<

 

In other words, no change?

 

 

[nb Innisfree]

I always thought it was legal to use red in a private vehicle on the public highway provided duty had been paid on it, how to prove that is another matter. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Machpoint005 said:

 

In other words, no change?

 

 

 

Exactly - all these folks are getting their knickers in a knot when as far as GB is concerned it is business as usual.

 

The problem will come in the near future now that the largest used of Red can no longer use it, the volume of red production will be reduced, there will be supply issues, let alone pricing problems.

[David Mack]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

Most of that lot don't use diesel for propulsion!