Anyone agree there should be a top level category on here for canal boat electrical conversion?

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Rivelin said:

My current thinking is to attach (bolt or weld) a splined pulley onto the prop shaft close to the coupler, then bolt on an electric motor with a suitably sized splined pulley on it's shaft, with a nylon belt driving the shaft. The resistance from the gearbox is very low when in neutral so I don't think this would add much load to the motor when in electric mode, and the motors turn freely when turned off, so equally wouldn't add much load to the engine when under diesel mode.

 

Then electricity is not your sole mode of power and you DO NOT get the reduced licence fee.

 

You can have a generator charging batteries, and the batteries powering the motor, but any direct connection between propshaft and engine is forbidden.

[Rivelin]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then electricity is not your sole mode of power and you DO NOT get the reduced licence fee.

 

You can have a generator charging batteries, and the batteries powering the motor, but any direct connection between propshaft and engine is forbidden.

I never said anything about reduced licence fee.

 

Please provide some reference for it being forbidden to connect a belt from an electric motor to prop shaft thanks.

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then electricity is not your sole mode of power and you DO NOT get the reduced licence fee.

 

You can have a generator charging batteries, and the batteries powering the motor, but any direct connection between propshaft and engine is forbidden.

 

The point of electric boating however, is to save the planet, not to save money.

 

Any discussion of how to save the planet generally gets subverted into how it saves money, or doesn't, within about ten posts. A terrible shame and until people stop prattling on about why 'X' method of reducing CO2 is rubbish because it doesn't save any money, we are never going to make progress with this. 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by MtB
Finesse a point.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

The point of electric boating however, is to save the planet, not to save money.

 

Any discussion of how to save the planet generally gets subverted into how it saves money, or doesn't, within about ten posts. A terrible shame and until people stop prattling on about why 'X' method of reducing CO2 is rubbish because it doesn't save any money, we are never going to make progress with this. 

 

 

 

 

Is having an engine powering a belt to drive the propshaft still an electric powered boat with all the inherent benefits of battery power ?

 

Shouldn't the boat just 'pull over' and wait for the batteries to recharge from the solar panels ?

 

 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Is having an engine powering a belt to drive the propshaft still an electric powered boat with all the inherent benefits of battery power ?

 

Shouldn't the boat just 'pull over' and wait for the batteries to recharge from the solar panels ?

 

 

 

Of course it should. And if it uses diesel for propulsion at all, it is not really a boat fuelled by electricity. Propelled perhaps, but not fuelled. 

 

And until a way can be found to charge batteries in a CO2-free way, electric boating will not be viable in the same way people boat using diesel.

 

Even HVO is not CO2-free.

[Rivelin]

You know what, forget it.

 

This forum has a minority of miserable old gits and nay-sayers that seem to get some sort of satisfaction from spoiling it for everyone else.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Rivelin said:

You know what, forget it.

 

This forum has a minority of miserable old gits and nay-sayers that seem to get some sort of satisfaction from spoiling it for everyone else.

 

 

 

 

Or maybe it is just that those miserable old gits are not quite as stupid as those who think running a diesel engine to charge batteries to turn a propshaft is 'green'.

[Rivelin]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Or maybe it is just that those miserable old gits are not quite as stupid as those who think running a diesel engine to charge batteries to turn a propshaft is 'green'.

or the miserable old gits don't realise they are to stupid to read and understand the motor is powered by batteries that are charged by solar panels, not the other way round. I rest my case.

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Rivelin said:

or the miserable old gits don't realise they are to stupid to read and understand the motor is powered by batteries that are charged by solar panels, not the other way round. I rest my case.

You are thinking of a parallel hybrid power which works ok,  in fact the motor can be used as a generator to help charge the batteries when the sun isn't shinning. 

Now I have a series hybrid which gets me 25% discount on my license, I do have a lot of solar which means that the genny isn't needed much. However in an emergency its nice to have it available, plus its connected into hot water and heating system. 

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Rivelin said:

or the miserable old gits don't realise they are to stupid to read and understand the motor is powered by batteries that are charged by solar panels, not the other way round. I rest my case.

 

 

OR.... those miserable gits have a better understanding of the technical hurdles than you. 

 

As you pointed out, on a day with full sun the solar might just about deliver enough current to power the motor but 90% of the time, this is not the case. On a dull cloudy day solar output falls to perhaps 10% of the sunny day output. Now what? Cruise for 45 mins that day? (Or week, or month.)  

 

 

[Machpoint005]

On 21/03/2022 at 13:10, alias said:

Do many people view the forum by "category" rather than by new content (with whatever categories that they don't want filtered out), or using a search for a specific query?   

 

I'm definitely in the "rather than" group.

 

3 hours ago, Rivelin said:

You know what, forget it.

 

This forum has a minority of miserable old gits and nay-sayers that seem to get some sort of satisfaction from spoiling it for everyone else.

 

 

 

"Spoiling it" ... translation: "Discussing it, especially when stating viewpoints with which I disagree".

 

 

If you want an environmentally friendly leisure activity, try walking or cycling.

You can even do them on a canal towing path.

[blackrose]

Presumably the canal boat traditionalists are against electrical propulsion? Or perhaps they could use vintage batteries?

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by blackrose

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

OR.... those miserable gits have a better understanding of the technical hurdles than you. 

 

As you pointed out, on a day with full sun the solar might just about deliver enough current to power the motor but 90% of the time, this is not the case. On a dull cloudy day solar output falls to perhaps 10% of the sunny day output. Now what? Cruise for 45 mins that day? (Or week, or month.)  

 

 

I have been getting over 3.3kws this week which is what I use for cruising, not all boats are created equal. I suspect Ian with his projected output I think 2kw of solar? Will be ok as well for a lot of the time. 

[Tony Brooks]

4 hours ago, Rivelin said:

You know what, forget it.

 

This forum has a minority of miserable old gits and nay-sayers that seem to get some sort of satisfaction from spoiling it for everyone else.

 

 

 

What you propose will work for some of the time and how much actual cruising you want to do, but until you come back and show us the calculations that prove that it will work for longer cruising days and in dull or short days you are just being rude with this post. Personally I don't think that you have done much research or probably any calculations to test viability.

 

There are real questions that you need to answer about your plans but I wish you the best of luck and hope that it proves cost effective.  I would also comment that I hope you are not planning to free wheel a Velvetdrive gearbox because I suspect the sun and planet gears in it won't take kindly to it long term. You will not be able to do it with an LH150 box unless each time you want to go electric boating you unscrew a plug on the box and screw a longer bolt in its place. I am not sure how the sun and planet gears in that box would react to free wheeling with no pressurized oil supply.

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, Rivelin said:

 

On a recent demo, the 55' narrowboat I was on was propelled purely by a 10kw electric motor at ~3mph and the power coming from the solar panels exceeded the current being drawn by the motor. Obviously this was a lovely sunny day so this wouldn't always be the case, so the boat had a little diesel generator for our dull weather ( yes I know that's most days 😉 ).

Obviously not the same owner of an Electric  hybrid narrowboat I spoke to who said that on a balanced input output its equal to tickover

 

My current thinking is to attach (bolt or weld) a splined pulley onto the prop shaft close to the coupler, then bolt on an electric motor with a suitably sized splined pulley on it's shaft, with a nylon belt driving the shaft. The resistance from the gearbox is very low when in neutral so I don't think this would add much load to the motor when in electric mode, and the motors turn freely when turned off, so equally wouldn't add much load to the engine when under diesel mode.

The electric motor should add load when the diesel engine is running, it acts as  a generator to recharge the batteries, not all gearboxes will be happy spining without the input shaft turning.

Replies in Blue

[MtB]

6 hours ago, Rivelin said:

Most people I have spoken to about it do want to move to electric propulsion - I guess it's just down to who you talk to.

 

For me the benefits seem obvious:-

• Travelling along your favourite waterway with only the sound of the water lapping against the boat and the birds singing
• No fumes to breathe in when in locks or when the wind is in the wrong direction
• Big savings on fuel costs when batteries are charged from solar panels and / or wind turbines
• At some point, we're going to have to stop using combustion engines

 

 

I notice this is all 'me, me, me'. No mention of any desire to reduce your CO2 output. 

 

Given all you want is silent cruising, no diesel fumes and reduced costs, best you buy that boat the salesman was schmoozing you with. But order one without the generato,r given one of the points of doing it is "No fumes to breathe in when in locks or when the wind is in the wrong direction"

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

I notice this is all 'me, me, me'. No mention of any desire to reduce your CO2 output. 

 

Given all you want is silent cruising, no diesel fumes and reduced costs, best you buy that boat the salesman was schmoozing you with. But order one without the generato,r given one of the points of doing it is "No fumes to breathe in when in locks or when the wind is in the wrong direction"

What about that one on the K & A that the lady pedals around?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

What about that one on the K & A that the lady pedals around?

 

Is it electric then? 

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Is it electric then? 

New lady powered 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The electric motor should add load when the diesel engine is running, it acts as  a generator to recharge the batteries, not all gearboxes will be happy spining without the input shaft turning.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

 

 

I said not all, I didn't say all will be damaged

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I said not all, I didn't say all will be damaged

 

I listed one that may well be damaged and another that won't work because it defaults into ahead gear when  the engine stops so I know the OP's statement about gearboxes freewheeling is not totally true, but maybe it is what he was told by a salesman. I am sure the PRMs will happily freewheel as will most modern mechanical boxes but once we get to sun & planet boxes, mainly older designs, I have my doubts long term. Even the mechanical B Type boxes had a piston oil pumps on the input shaft to squirt oil into the planet gears.

[TheBiscuits]

On 25/03/2022 at 11:03, MtB said:

No way I'm getting rid of any of my many pigeon boxes. My boats are 'all porthole' and the pigeon boxes are how the interior is illuminated. 

 

With all that solar array on the roof you could spare the electricity to turn the lights on inside ...

[IanD]

15 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I notice this is all 'me, me, me'. No mention of any desire to reduce your CO2 output. 

 

Given all you want is silent cruising, no diesel fumes and reduced costs, best you buy that boat the salesman was schmoozing you with. But order one without the generato,r given one of the points of doing it is "No fumes to breathe in when in locks or when the wind is in the wrong direction"

 

If you do a power audit for an electric boat with generator and solar (like I did), the numbers come out roughly like this:

 

-- typical power used for propulsion (full day canal cruising, allowing for locks and passing boats) : about 14kWh

-- average solar panel yield per day in summer (2kWp panels) : about 7kWh (about 1.5kWh in midwinter)

-- average battery drain per day : 7kWh

-- generator charging rate into batteries (Quattro 48/10000) : 7kW

 

So (ignoring domestic power use) if you cruise all day for several days in a row in summer you need to run the generator on average for about an hour a day (one hour in eight) to replenish the batteries -- but with a big battery bank (35kWh in my case) you could run it for several hours a couple of times per week instead. Either way you can certainly avoid running it in locks, or any time when exhaust fumes would bother you or anyone else.

 

If you only cruise every other day (or half a day every day) then (ignoring domestic use) you don't need to run the generator at all in summer. Adding on the additional draw for domestic power use (same as any boat) means this might drop to every third day (or a third of a full day per day).

 

So in summer, generator running time would be between zero and about 8 hours per week, depending on how much time you spend travelling. All this assumes LFP batteries, times with LA are far longer.

 

In winter the solar probably won't keep up with domestic demand even when moored, so maybe an extra couple of hours per week (2kWh/day) of generator running are needed -- so between 2 and 10 hours per week, depending on travel time.

 

Either way this is only a very small fraction of travelling time to be generating any fumes -- which generators tend to be better than propulsion engines at because they're run at optimum load instead of light load -- and noise, where a properly cocooned generator will be quieter than any propulsion engine.

 

As far as being green is concerned, fuel consumption comes out between 0% (solar only) and 60% (all-day cruising in winter) compared to a diesel, but like with BEV this has to be weighed against the CO2 cost of battery manufacture. Probably still green over the lifetime of the boat/batteries, but not in the short term.

 

If charging networks ever emerge -- which will happen eventually, but could be a long time ahead -- this changes; like EV on the roads, electric boats are definitely then greener than diesel. But like any car this doesn't always mean that replacing an old but still perfectly good diesel with a new electric system makes CO2 sense -- but for a new boat (or an old one where the diesel needs replacing anyway) it does.

 

Still costs more upfront though -- as in many other fields (e.g. heat pumps) the CO2-friendly solution either doesn't save money or costs more, which is a fundamental problem stopping people from going "green" 😞

Edited March 28, 2022 by IanD

[IanD]

15 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The parallel hybrid systems used by Hybrid Marine use Beta engines and PRM gearboxes with the motor/generator belt-coupled to the propshaft, like the OP was proposing, and these work just fine.

 

https://hybridmarine.co.uk/index.php/products/narrowboat