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"Old Steel" and the tale of two surveys


DShK

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On 19/03/2022 at 11:54, Stilllearning said:

...... when you find the right boat, you will know it.

I've heard these words quoted on here frequently. 

I don't agree, in my case the boat was  built by a good builder, hull in excellent condition, good engine, lots of good things. 

The interior did not appeal, it was bare rough ply interior. Looked in need of a damn good clean and redecoration. 

I bought it on the basis that that it could be turned around. So there was no way it had a unique attraction that said "buy me" 

I suppose some people are looking for a particular fit out, eg proper craftsman finished woodwork inside, proper coachwork outside, in which case they are going to wait a while, and presumably keep it as it is, there are not many boats available like that, in tip top condition. they will be at top end of market. 

Lots of boats fitted out to a reasonable standard, and in reasonable condition, I see them on YouTube BTW, nothing that would say to me "this is the one" 

Edited by LadyG
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13 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

That is also what happens to boat baseplates. They rust from the inside rather than the outside but it's nothing to do with the steel, it's about the environment and the applied protection.

 

 

So narrowboat baseplates don't derive any anti-rust protection from applying blacking to the underside? 

It means all the folks who coat their baseplate are wasting their time then?

 

But can I ask- why do the sides of a boat rust below the waterline, but the baseplate doesn't? 

 

I was considering ways to coat the baseplate at the next blacking lift out, but it seems like its not necessary.

 

Edited by Tony1
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15 minutes ago, LadyG said:

in my case the boat was  built by a good builder, hull in excellent condition, good engine, lots of good things. 

The interior did not appeal, it was bare rough ply interior. Looked in need of a damn good clean and redecoration. 

I bought it on the basis that that it could be turned around. So there was no way it had a unique attraction that said "buy me" 

 

Maybe that's why you've had troubles with it. Are you sure you bought the right boat for you?

 

Mind you the first time I walked aboard my boat I said "Nope, not this one" and left, then went back two days later and bought it ...

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28 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I've heard these words quoted on here frequently. 

I don't agree, in my case the boat was  built by a good builder, hull in excellent condition, good engine, lots of good things. 

The interior did not appeal, it was bare rough ply interior. Looked in need of a damn good clean and redecoration. 

I bought it on the basis that that it could be turned around. So there was no way it had a unique attraction that said "buy me" 

I suppose some people are looking for a particular fit out, eg proper craftsman finished woodwork inside, proper coachwork outside, in which case they are going to wait a while, and presumably keep it as it is, there are not many boats available like that, in tip top condition. they will be at top end of market. 

Lots of boats fitted out to a reasonable standard, and in reasonable condition, I see them on YouTube BTW, nothing that would say to me "this is the one" 

 

This is something I am mulling over at the moment. The things I would really love in a boat make them much less common - I need space to work (I make video game art for a living, I need a sizeable PC setup), but am absolutely in love with the idea of a more traditional boat with a mid engine. So I'm looking at 65+ feet in that setup, and those engines seem to be much less common. So I think the "perfect" boat will require me waiting a very long time (or be out of my price bracket) - I need to compromise somewhere. Is that the traditional aspect? Or going for a more tired interior that I need to work on? Perhaps I will grow weary of waiting out for a traditional boat and decide to be content with something tidy but much less interesting. I am planning to see a bunch of boats, and I believe I will either fall in love with a boat or develop a gut feeling on where I want to compromise.

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12 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

So narrowboat baseplates don't derive any anti-rust protection from applying blacking to the underside? 

It means all the folks who coat their baseplate are wasting their time then?

 

But can I ask- why do the sides of a boat rust below the waterline, but the baseplate doesn't? 

 

I was considering ways to coat the baseplate at the next blacking lift out, but it seems like its not necessary.

 

 

They derive some protection and if possible it's wise to black the baseplate. The point of the comment is that while folk tend to worry about external corrosion the conditions experienced by the baseplate on the inside of the boat are often much more aggressive than outside.

 

I can't say I've necessarily observed that the lower sides corrode more readily than the baseplate but one possible reason is that they are more prone to getting what protection they have knocked off and if contact with the bank exposes fresh steel it will quickly rust where wetting and drying occurs - and possibly quite a bit of the side plates can experience that in locks. That would be a repetitive process since it's probably an everyday occurrence that the lower sides contact something whereas notions that blacking gets quickly removed from the baseplate aren't really true.

 

The baseplate on my boat has been blacked in the past - although not by me - and there are striations in the outer coats where things on the canal bed have been over-run but they don't all expose steel to corrosion.

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9 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Maybe that's why you've had troubles with it. Are you sure you bought the right boat for you?

.

This one was bought because I needed somewhere to live, I was not able to visit dozens of boats, at the time. The primary thing was a good hull by a good builder, its a good boat, has justified all the work I have had to put in to it. 

Most of the cash has added value, and I would now sell it as  good boat, suited to live aboard. 

Yes there have been problems, to be frank, I thought I would just pay someone to sort them out,  but I have had to get more involved, reluctantly, and some of the "electricians" were rip off merchants. 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, DShK said:

 

This is something I am mulling over at the moment. The things I would really love in a boat make them much less common - I need space to work (I make video game art for a living, I need a sizeable PC setup), but am absolutely in love with the idea of a more traditional boat with a mid engine. So I'm looking at 65+ feet in that setup, and those engines seem to be much less common. So I think the "perfect" boat will require me waiting a very long time (or be out of my price bracket) - I need to compromise somewhere. Is that the traditional aspect? Or going for a more tired interior that I need to work on? Perhaps I will grow weary of waiting out for a traditional boat and decide to be content with something tidy but much less interesting. I am planning to see a bunch of boats, and I believe I will either fall in love with a boat or develop a gut feeling on where I want to compromise.

Most boats have two double beds, one is a diner style, if you have a family you need extra beds, otherwise it takes up space. 

If you intend to work from a marina, life will be much easier, if cc, no shore power moving continuosly, maybe single-handed, to me that is a whole different ball game

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

So narrowboat baseplates don't derive any anti-rust protection from applying blacking to the underside? 

It means all the folks who coat their baseplate are wasting their time then?

 

But can I ask- why do the sides of a boat rust below the waterline, but the baseplate doesn't? 

 

I was considering ways to coat the baseplate at the next blacking lift out, but it seems like its not necessary.

 

Painting the underside of the baseplate has exactly the same benefits as painting the lower parts of the sides. The reason it is not often done is that it is a pig of a job to do, especially to properly clean and prepare, and boat yards and owners alike don't want to do it.

You will inevitably wear the blacking off the bottom corner of the hull - sides and bottom - whenever you touch the bottom coming into a shallow bank, and there will be random scrapes along the bottom where you have run over some sunken objects. But the rest of it will remain protected. In particular if you have cleaned out pits in the baseplate and filled them with blacking then further corrosion of these potential weak points will be slowed.

 

Part of the thinking behind the current trend for 10mm and 12mm baseplate is that corrosion can go unchecked for many more years before the bottom becomes dangerously thin.

 

Rusting from the inside is another matter. But a dry bilge will only corrode very slowly. Wetting and drying is the enemy.

 

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21 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I was considering ways to coat the baseplate at the next blacking lift out, but it seems like its not necessary.

Being lazy I have ignored my 10 year old baseplate and preferred to go along the train of thought that says baseplates don’t rust.

Well after 10years it’s pitted all over. Mostly about 2mm, 2.5mm in some areas. So yes they can rust. I can see lots and lots of lines of pitting running bow to stern. It’s obvious where I have gone over things and scratched long lines in to the surface of the steel. The surface looks like a lunar landscape or a very bad skin graft.

So this year I have painted it with the idea that any paint I can get in the pits will protect from further rusting. Yes, I expect the paint to get scraped off in places but hopefully it will stay in the pits. I won’t know until I look again in a few years.  
 
And perhaps I’ll stick to a gentle canal like the Ashby Canal in future, and not do a BCN challenge or travel the Rochdale and Huddersfield where a lot of time is spent scrapping the bottom or driving over stuff. 
 

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26 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Painting the underside of the baseplate has exactly the same benefits as painting the lower parts of the sides. The reason it is not often done is that it is a pig of a job to do, especially to properly clean and prepare, and boat yards and owners alike don't want to do it.

You will inevitably wear the blacking off the bottom corner of the hull - sides and bottom - whenever you touch the bottom coming into a shallow bank, and there will be random scrapes along the bottom where you have run over some sunken objects. But the rest of it will remain protected. In particular if you have cleaned out pits in the baseplate and filled them with blacking then further corrosion of these potential weak points will be slowed.

 

Part of the thinking behind the current trend for 10mm and 12mm baseplate is that corrosion can go unchecked for many more years before the bottom becomes dangerously thin.

 

Rusting from the inside is another matter. But a dry bilge will only corrode very slowly. Wetting and drying is the enemy.

 

 

It seems to me that there is all the more reason for me to prep and coat the underside of the boat at the next blacking, since its very likely never been done. 

I've been considering grit blasting and epoxy treatment to the sides, so the next haul out is looking likely to be pretty expensive, as I will be asking them to blast the underside as well. 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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If you plan to do your base plate and are still going to be in the north, have a chat to Rebekah and Matt  at Northwich Dry Dock on the Weaver might be worth your while. You can get under the boat and the bottom of the dock is clean and dry ( so you don't get muddy feet ) and you can stay aboard. Boats are in for a week so the paint gets a chance to properly dry . It can be either DIY   or they do it for you. 

 

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7 minutes ago, haggis said:

If you plan to do your base plate and are still going to be in the north, have a chat to Rebekah and Matt  at Northwich Dry Dock on the Weaver might be worth your while. You can get under the boat and the bottom of the dock is clean and dry ( so you don't get muddy feet ) and you can stay aboard. Boats are in for a week so the paint gets a chance to properly dry . It can be either DIY   or they do it for you. 

 

 

Thanks Mrs H, I remember you recommending those chaps, and they are top of my list- and it wont be too far away by the summer. 

 

The only slight query for me is that they dont routinely grit blast- I remember you saying they use a very high pressure washer instead.

Part of me is thinking that if I go to all the trouble and expense of using something like epoxy, I might as well go the whole hog and get it blasted first, for that extra bit of effectiveness. 

But they also seem very reasonably priced, and that is a big factor as well. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks Mrs H, I remember you recommending those chaps, and they are top of my list- and it wont be too far away by the summer. 

 

The only slight query for me is that they dont routinely grit blast- I remember you saying they use a very high pressure washer instead.

Part of me is thinking that if I go to all the trouble and expense of using something like epoxy, I might as well go the whole hog and get it blasted first, for that extra bit of effectiveness. 

But they also seem very reasonably priced, and that is a big factor as well. 

 

 

Sorry Tony, I forgot I had already told you about the Northwich Dry dock :-). Their pressure washer is something else and although you want grit blasting give them a  ring and have a chat. They are boaters and know what they are talking about . About bottom blacking, we had them do Kelpies base plate a few years ago and when they pressure washed it last year it was still as good as it had been before the first treatment . Definitely worth doing for peace of mind if nothing else

 

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1 hour ago, haggis said:

If you plan to do your base plate and are still going to be in the north, have a chat to Rebekah and Matt  at Northwich Dry Dock on the Weaver might be worth your while. You can get under the boat and the bottom of the dock is clean and dry ( so you don't get muddy feet ) and you can stay aboard. Boats are in for a week so the paint gets a chance to properly dry . It can be either DIY   or they do it for you. 

 

But I don't think they have grit blasting there

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Just now, ditchcrawler said:

But I don't think they have grit blasting there

I don't think they do but that pressure washer is extremely high powered and I thought it might be worthwhile Tony chatting to them to discuss things.

 

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2 hours ago, LadyG said:

Most boats have two double beds, one is a diner style, if you have a family you need extra beds, otherwise it takes up space. 

If you intend to work from a marina, life will be much easier, if cc, no shore power moving continuosly, maybe single-handed, to me that is a whole different ball game

 

 

 

 

I am indeed either looking for boats without the dinette or one where it looks like the dinette can be ripped out without too much fuss.

 

I would be single-handed. I plan to start out in a marina until I get my footing. I would like to cruise (and then moor in a marina in the winter) but I need to make sure I'm not like "Sorry, no power/bandwidth today" to my employer. It's easier if I go back to freelance work but at the moment I quite like my current employer and role. I know my power needs are high, I very much expect to need lithium/a big solar array and a generator. I've also found ways to limit the power usage for free (hard cap on PC component power draw, limit framerate in the game engine we use etc, lower screen brightness etc). At worst I'd be happy with cruising between marinas, not staying in one place too long. I'm not looking to get into this for an easy life, I'm in it to feel like I'm living more intentionally. If that makes any sense.

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6 minutes ago, haggis said:

Sorry Tony, I forgot I had already told you about the Northwich Dry dock :-). Their pressure washer is something else and although you want grit blasting give them a  ring and have a chat. They are boaters and know what they are talking about . About bottom blacking, we had them do Kelpies base plate a few years ago and when they pressure washed it last year it was still as good as it had been before the first treatment . Definitely worth doing for peace of mind if nothing else

 

I will let you know what ours is like later this year

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7 minutes ago, DShK said:

I am indeed either looking for boats without the dinette or one where it looks like the dinette can be ripped out without too much fuss.

 

I would be single-handed. I plan to start out in a marina until I get my footing. I would like to cruise (and then moor in a marina in the winter) but I need to make sure I'm not like "Sorry, no power/bandwidth today" to my employer. It's easier if I go back to freelance work but at the moment I quite like my current employer and role. I know my power needs are high, I very much expect to need lithium/a big solar array and a generator. I've also found ways to limit the power usage for free (hard cap on PC component power draw, limit framerate in the game engine we use etc, lower screen brightness etc). At worst I'd be happy with cruising between marinas, not staying in one place too long. I'm not looking to get into this for an easy life, I'm in it to feel like I'm living more intentionally. If that makes any sense.

Unless you have a residential mooring (hens teeth) with both power and Lind Line phone they will be your two main problems. Virtually evert marina will have power but the chances are you will be relying on a mobile signal for your internet.

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17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Virtually evert marina will have power but the chances are you will be relying on a mobile signal for your internet.

Well since house dwellers are increasingly going down this route, it isn't necessarily a problem. But you will need to sort out a proper mobile data connection with an external aerial, rather than just using your phone as a mobile hotspot. Plenty of threads on here discussing the options.

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9 hours ago, DShK said:

Funny because I grew up with parents who were classic VW enthusiasts and they rotted like nobody's business! In fact their first VW camper (1960s t2 bay window) was scrapped because the entire chassis was made of rust.

A relative in the motor trade once remarked that the rust-bucket phenomenon of certain 1950's and 60's cars was largely due to the use of poor quality recycled steel. Nothing wrong with recycling steel as long as it is properly treated to exclude metals other than iron, but if your recycled scrap iron  includes traces of other metals such as copper or aluminium, their presence can create electrolytic corrosion cells in the presence of moisture. I understand that the steel bodywork of modern cars is passivated before painting,  which greatly reduces the scope for  rusting.

Edited by Ronaldo47
typos, " poor quality" added
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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Unless you have a residential mooring (hens teeth) with both power and Lind Line phone they will be your two main problems. Virtually evert marina will have power but the chances are you will be relying on a mobile signal for your internet.

Yeah, I did not plan to depend on any marina's wifi. What is considered "acceptable" WiFi to some may be abysmal to others - and no real way for me to confirm beforehand. I can however go to a marina and check the speed over a mobile connection, before handing over my money.

 

41 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Well since house dwellers are increasingly going down this route, it isn't necessarily a problem. But you will need to sort out a proper mobile data connection with an external aerial, rather than just using your phone as a mobile hotspot. Plenty of threads on here discussing the options.

Yup, planned to get a 4G router with an external MiMo antenna. I built my own campervan so benefit from having a lot of overlapping knowledge.

 

5 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

A relative in the motor trade once remarked that the rust-bucket phenomenon of certain 1950's and 60's cars was largely due to the use of recycled steel. Nothing wrong with recycling steel as long as it is properly treated to exclude metals other than iron, but if your recycled scrap iron  includes traces of other metals such as copper or aluminium, their presence can create electrolytic corrosion cells in the presence of moisture. I understand that the steel bodywork of modern cars is passivated before painting,  which greatly reduces the scope for  rusting.

That's interesting! That would explain a lot!

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4 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

A relative in the motor trade once remarked that the rust-bucket phenomenon of certain 1950's and 60's cars was largely due to the use of poor quality recycled steel. Nothing wrong with recycling steel as long as it is properly treated to exclude metals other than iron, but if your recycled scrap iron  includes traces of other metals such as copper or aluminium, their presence can create electrolytic corrosion cells in the presence of moisture. I understand that the steel bodywork of modern cars is passivated before painting,  which greatly reduces the scope for  rusting.

 

Copper and aluminium both have deliberate uses as alloying elements in steel and in the case of copper it is actually to improve the natural corrosion resistance and also to alter the ductility. Copper bearing steel was used in the round chined Grand Union Middle Northwich boats that were intended for estuarine use.

 

While copper will remain in it's elemental state in steel that isn't true for aluminium which is a strong reducing agent and will oxidise and be removed as slag. It also reacts with nitrogen. The addition of other highly reactive metals to the molten iron during steelmaking is normal practice. It's done to remove impurities, or to lock them in to harmless compounds before they react with the iron to form something detrimental, and to manipulate the grain structure.

 

Scrap is used in all steel production including primary iron and steelmaking, and all steel production involves the refining of impure molten iron. What you start with isn't the important factor, it's the control of the process that results in the finished product that matters. Hence if there was a problem with the content of 1950s/60s steel it wasn't really about what went into it as a lack of process to remove whatever was undesirable.

 

Overall though I'm willing to wager that the real reason for the problems you refer to isn't that at all but is in your last paragraph i.e. poor protective coatings.

 

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11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'm sure @Keeping Up wouldn't agree with you - let him tell you his story.

 

It is easy enough to dismiss it as operator error, but how many oprators are needed to get the same result before it is accepted as fact ?

I won't tell the whole story again, it's easy to find several tellings of it by searching if you really want to. However I can say that I have photos that I took for myself at the time of the first survey, showing hardly any pitting, and then 2 years later showing massive pitting. So the phenomenon was real, and is still unexplained.

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18 hours ago, LadyG said:

Most boats have two double beds, one is a diner style, if you have a family you need extra beds, otherwise it takes up space. 

If you intend to work from a marina, life will be much easier, if cc, no shore power moving continuosly, maybe single-handed, to me that is a whole different ball game

 

 

 

 

I am single-handed on a 57ft narrow boat, no way would I buy a 65ft boat.

It's more difficult to find mooring spaces between moored boats, awkward in locks, more wind age in strong winds.

I often find it much better to moor near others, probably means the canal is deep enough, the area is fairly quiet, and not too far from civilisation. 

Marina hopping was one of my ideas to access shore power in winter, but its not worked out, not all marinas will have vacancies for transient boats, they may be fully booked in winter, or they may not have shore power, you may not be able to get to them : winter stoppages, unplanned breaches, all throw your carefully calculated plans out the window. 

Edited by LadyG
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2 hours ago, LadyG said:

I am single-handed on a 57ft narrow boat, no way would I buy a 65ft boat.

It's more difficult to find mooring spaces between moored boats, awkward in locks, more wind age in strong winds.

I often find it much better to moor near others, probably means the canal is deep enough, the area is fairly quiet, and not too far from civilisation. 

Marina hopping was one of my ideas to access shore power in winter, but its not worked out, not all marinas will have vacancies for transient boats, they may be fully booked in winter, or they may not have shore power, you may not be able to get to them : winter stoppages, unplanned breaches, all throw your carefully calculated plans out the window. 

This is not advice that is easy to hear but definitely the kind of thing I need to hear. I think a 60ft boat would be fine - especially if a trad stern. Beyond that size it's mostly about accomodating a mid-engine. Perhaps I am better off compromising on the mid-engine, and in the future - when I have more experience - I can be more informed if I fancy handling a larger boat. I believe the guy who tried to sell me the boat in question for single-handed, and that was 70ft. As for marinas/cruising/shorepower. Perhaps the solution there is to always pay for a marina. Always have one lined up well in advance, always have a home mooring that I can plan around. Winter stoppages I can plan around - I imagine breaches etc I would be fine to moor up and just run a generator until I can move on?

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