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K2 Prospective purchase


Floaty Me Boaty

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Hi All,

As a lover of Vintage Engines i have been looking for around eight months for a boat with a Kelvin in situ.

I may have found one, so I am up to Cannock next week, from the South coast,  to look at a Narrowboat which has a beautiful K2 in situ.

She is currently sitting in a Boat Yard , after having undergone a complete makeover, and would like to know the following please:-

 

Do we have any enthusiasts near Cannock that could start her up for me?  Would buy them Lunch etc 😄

 

Also, i need to get her to a Marina, somewhere in the area that can accommodate a 66' Boat. Great Opportunity for someone to have a play

 

Final question, i promise, are there Maintenance Manuals available for the Kelvin K2?

 

As always, any help and info would be gratefully received.

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Cannot help with the first two, but Dave Moore of this parish is an ex Model J owner, and the J is but a small K.   He does much work Cannock way.  Is the one you are looking at a petrol start engine?

Koukouvagia has put a video of how to petrol start the K2 in the Josher Owl on YouTube.  Follow that and you will not go wrong.

 

Have a look at Mike Skyner's website, skynet.org or similar, for spares lists, operators manuals and much more I think there may be a K Manual on the Internal Fire website too. You have to register to access, to stop the Ebay rip off merchants selling prints of the download.

 

N

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Hi N,

 

Thank for getting back to me.

I can confirm she is a petrol start up but also can be started from cold on the button.

Sad i know, but looking forward to spinning her on the handle, but no doubt will go back to the button poste haste.

I will look at the link you have sent and register and download.

I have also been watching loads of videos on the start up procedure, so feel confident, but always good to have that moral support for the first time.

Speaking to the gent last night, he informed me that they had to have a Stop /Start panel installed on the stern, as when they were on the Thames, the engine had to be turned off whilst in the locks.

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Hi,

You won't  be "spinning  it on the handle" unless you're built  like Charles Atlas. Even with the petrol start and low compression , it's a mighty heavy engine. It should just need to be brought over compression slowly so that the impulse start on the mag drive clicks and fires the petrol. It says something to that effect in the instruction book😀

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33 minutes ago, NobbyHall said:

Speaking to the gent last night, he informed me that they had to have a Stop /Start panel installed on the stern, as when they were on the Thames, the engine had to be turned off whilst in the locks.

I have done the Thames a few times on Fulbourne. Always have to dive into the engine room to stop and start the National.

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34 minutes ago, NobbyHall said:

as when they were on the Thames, the engine had to be turned off whilst in the locks.

 

That is sort of true as the regulations require engines OFF in locks, but my own experience is lockies are very accommodating and provided you ask if they want you to turn it off and you are genuinely willing to do so, they say leave it running. 

 

The curious thing is with electric start, stopping a Kelvin is no particular problem (other than the need to dive into the engine room to open the injector bypass valve(s) ), as starting it again simply requires a button push just like a modern lump.

 

I think the lockies actually like having it running as they lock you through if truth be told. Also, if you are the only boat in the lock I find lockies tend to say "No point in turning it off as you are the only boat", leading me to think the reason of the 'engines off' rule is noise. A lockful of modern engines all burbling away makes quite a racket and some peace and quiet while the lock fills or empties makes it easier to hear if someone calls out their boat is in trouble.

 

Not that I encounter many lockies on the Thames nowadays anyway. 

 

Oh and I forgot to say, I have a manual for a K2 if you can't find a copy.

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27 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

That is sort of true as the regulations require engines OFF in locks, but my own experience is lockies are very accommodating and provided you ask if they want you to turn it off and you are genuinely willing to do so, they say leave it running. 

 

The curious thing is with electric start, stopping a Kelvin is no particular problem (other than the need to dive into the engine room to open the injector bypass valve(s) ), as starting it again simply requires a button push just like a modern lump.

 

I think the lockies actually like having it running as they lock you through if truth be told. Also, if you are the only boat in the lock I find lockies tend to say "No point in turning it off as you are the only boat", leading me to think the reason of the 'engines off' rule is noise. A lockful of modern engines all burbling away makes quite a racket and some peace and quiet while the lock fills or empties makes it easier to hear if someone calls out their boat is in trouble.

 

Not that I encounter many lockies on the Thames nowadays anyway. 

 

Oh and I forgot to say, I have a manual for a K2 if you can't find a copy.

I have looked at a few of the manuals given, and they don't really tell me a lot.

I do have the oiling points etc but I should imagine there is a lot more to know then that.

A full copy would be great.

Have you a pdf and i will of course pay for it.

 

Regarding the Lockies, I could listen to the sound all day so perhaps they feel the same when a boat comes through that appears to be alive.

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Solved engine off on the Thames many years go very simply.

Real pain with butty on the right and lock wall on left, and no through door to engine room, hand start engine etc.

First time we had to stop engine simply engineered a non restart , lots of clanking banging curses and swearing.

Then wound her over and started on one pot.

When I  ( eventually ) popped in number 2 the lock was engulfed in smoke.

 

Most of the waiting plastic nods had cooked and eaten their lunch as we emerged and were giving the locky an ear bending.

 

In those  days the telephone was in service and we were not requested to stop the engine again! 🤪

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8 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Solved engine off on the Thames many years go very simply.

Real pain with butty on the right and lock wall on left, and no through door to engine room, hand start engine etc.

First time we had to stop engine simply engineered a non restart , lots of clanking banging curses and swearing.

Then wound her over and started on one pot.

When I  ( eventually ) popped in number 2 the lock was engulfed in smoke.

 

Most of the waiting plastic nods had cooked and eaten their lunch as we emerged and were giving the locky an ear bending.

 

In those  days the telephone was in service and we were not requested to stop the engine again! 🤪

Heard a similar story about a Bolinder-engined boat being required to stop the engine in a lock full of Thames cruisers, then once the gates were open and the noddy boats had left, telling the lockie that the blowtorch was on, and would take about 20 minutes to heat the cylinder head before the engine would start.

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22 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Heard a similar story about a Bolinder-engined boat being required to stop the engine in a lock full of Thames cruisers, then once the gates were open and the noddy boats had left, telling the lockie that the blowtorch was on, and would take about 20 minutes to heat the cylinder head before the engine would start.

 

Which of course was a bit of a fib. I'd say 18 minutes on an already hot Bolinder would be enough, based on my own experiences re-starting my Skandia hot bulb. 

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41 minutes ago, NobbyHall said:

A full copy would be great.

Have you a pdf and i will of course pay for it.

 

No I just have the manual itself in that particular boat. Next time I go to that boat I can take photos of each of the pages and WhatsApp them to you if you PM me your number. This might take a couple of weeks! 

 

I've a vague feeling that I might possibly also have a PDF somewhere from 15 years ago, when I bought my K1. I'll have a search through my computers...

 

 

P.S. no need to pay!

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Which of course was a bit of a fib. I'd say 18 minutes on an already hot Bolinder would be enough, based on my own experiences re-starting my Skandia hot bulb. 

I'm quite sure they could have started it sooner. But like Roland, they were making a point. 

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3 hours ago, NobbyHall said:

I have looked at a few of the manuals given, and they don't really tell me a lot.

I do have the oiling points etc but I should imagine there is a lot more to know then that.

A full copy would be great.

There is not much more to know than is in the manuals.  Remember these engines were designed to be used and looked after by Scottish fisherfolk, with an occasional visit from a car mechanic.

 

To make life easy, set the engine up with No 2 cylinder on the compression stroke. (Priming tap blows.) That way it will fire 2, 1, 0,0 rather than 1,0,0,2. 

Oil it, check the plugs are clean, 

open the injector drains, turn the levers to petrol,  put petrol in the carby, then prime it and close the priming valves. Swing it, like you are starting a car on the handle, so only a sharp pull over compression rather than a big wind up like say a JP or National.  After it starts, close the injector drains, wait 10 to 20 seconds till it warms up a bit, put the levers to diesel.  If it wont start on petrol clean the plugs and check the magneto is not switched off.  If it still wont start, clean the plugs properly.

 

If it has one, dont leave the petrol measuring gurgle bottle in the engine 'ole.  When it gets warm the air inside expands and  the petrol will run out.

 

To shut it down, just push the fuel pump rack fully aft, against the spring.  That stops the engine, saves farting around with the injector drains and the levers and allows for an immediate on-the-button restart.

 

N

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14 hours ago, dave moore said:

Which yard? Canal Transport Services on the Cannock Extension, or perhaps next door, the old Norton Canes site. I may be able to help with more information. PM me.

PM You Dave.

17 hours ago, BEngo said:

There is not much more to know than is in the manuals.  Remember these engines were designed to be used and looked after by Scottish fisherfolk, with an occasional visit from a car mechanic.

 

To make life easy, set the engine up with No 2 cylinder on the compression stroke. (Priming tap blows.) That way it will fire 2, 1, 0,0 rather than 1,0,0,2. 

Oil it, check the plugs are clean, 

open the injector drains, turn the levers to petrol,  put petrol in the carby, then prime it and close the priming valves. Swing it, like you are starting a car on the handle, so only a sharp pull over compression rather than a big wind up like say a JP or National.  After it starts, close the injector drains, wait 10 to 20 seconds till it warms up a bit, put the levers to diesel.  If it wont start on petrol clean the plugs and check the magneto is not switched off.  If it still wont start, clean the plugs properly.

 

If it has one, dont leave the petrol measuring gurgle bottle in the engine 'ole.  When it gets warm the air inside expands and  the petrol will run out.

 

To shut it down, just push the fuel pump rack fully aft, against the spring.  That stops the engine, saves farting around with the injector drains and the levers and allows for an immediate on-the-button restart.

 

N

As easy as that then. 🙂

Thanks for the info.

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23 hours ago, NobbyHall said:

A full copy would be great.

Have you a pdf and i will of course pay for it.

 

 

 

Ok I've had a good search of the old computer files and can't find anything, sorry. I'll be visiting my K2 boat in the next couple of weeks and I'll grab the manual then and photo it for you (got your PM thanks).

 

The Mike Skyner site has loads of stuff to read though as Bengo mentioned. No-one has put up the URL yet though so here it is. Hours of fascinating reading....

 

http://www.sky-net.org.uk/kelvin/

 

 

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11 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Ok I've had a good search of the old computer files and can't find anything, sorry. I'll be visiting my K2 boat in the next couple of weeks and I'll grab the manual then and photo it for you (got your PM thanks).

 

The Mike Skyner site has loads of stuff to read though as Bengo mentioned. No-one has put up the URL yet though so here it is. Hours of fascinating reading....

 

http://www.sky-net.org.uk/kelvin/

 

 

Appreciate you trying.

Thank You

20 hours ago, BEngo said:

There is not much more to know than is in the manuals.  Remember these engines were designed to be used and looked after by Scottish fisherfolk, with an occasional visit from a car mechanic.

 

To make life easy, set the engine up with No 2 cylinder on the compression stroke. (Priming tap blows.) That way it will fire 2, 1, 0,0 rather than 1,0,0,2. 

Oil it, check the plugs are clean, 

open the injector drains, turn the levers to petrol,  put petrol in the carby, then prime it and close the priming valves. Swing it, like you are starting a car on the handle, so only a sharp pull over compression rather than a big wind up like say a JP or National.  After it starts, close the injector drains, wait 10 to 20 seconds till it warms up a bit, put the levers to diesel.  If it wont start on petrol clean the plugs and check the magneto is not switched off.  If it still wont start, clean the plugs properly.

 

If it has one, dont leave the petrol measuring gurgle bottle in the engine 'ole.  When it gets warm the air inside expands and  the petrol will run out.

 

To shut it down, just push the fuel pump rack fully aft, against the spring.  That stops the engine, saves farting around with the injector drains and the levers and allows for an immediate on-the-button restart.

 

N

As easy as that then. 🙂

Thanks for the info.

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20 hours ago, BEngo said:

After it starts, close the injector drains, wait 10 to 20 seconds till it warms up a bit, put the levers to diesel.

 

 

I'm inclined to disagree with you here but its a moot point. Switching over to diesel early like this will leave the carburettor containing some residual unused petrol which will slowly evaporate leaving the fumes inside the boat unless you have the side doors open for the next few hours.

 

I think it is better to run it on petrol until you hear the first misfire from running out of petrol, then switch over to diesel. I think this is how the manual says to do it but my memory is weak! 

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H R Ricardo.

His factory is still going strong and only down the road from where i live in Shoreham By Sea.

I knew he invented the Injector with a swirl chamber, but didnt realise he was such a prolific engine designer.

 

My life is being taken over.

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

I'm inclined to disagree with you here but its a moot point. Switching over to diesel early like this will leave the carburettor containing some residual unused petrol which will slowly evaporate leaving the fumes inside the boat unless you have the side doors open for the next few hours.

 

I think it is better to run it on petrol until you hear the first misfire from running out of petrol, then switch over to diesel. I think this is how the manual says to do it but my memory is weak! 

That is indeed what the manual says.  I have a drain tap on the carb, so empty it once on diesel.   The other way to do it is to run one cylinder on diesel and one on petrol till the petrol is gone.  But you can only do that on a J, (no linkage between the levers) or a K where the linkage has been removed.  And not at all on a K1!

 

N

56 minutes ago, NobbyHall said:

H R Ricardo.

His factory is still going strong and only down the road from where i live in Shoreham By Sea.

I knew he invented the Injector with a swirl chamber, but didnt realise he was such a prolific engine designer.

 

My life is being taken over.

Harry Ricardo was one of the great engineer/scientists of the internal combustion engine.  Involved with everything  to do with combustion, from air induction and fuel injection to sleeve valves and swirl.  His book 'The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine' is really good, if you are into IC engines.  It is technical though. There is a downloadable pdf version online.  It takes a bit of finding.

 

N

Edited by BEngo
Get book title right.
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I think the swirl chamber (as a reservoir of compressed, fast moving air which stirs things up in the main cylinder)  predates both RA Lister and HR Ricardo.  The Acro system involves a swirl chamber, but not injection into it.   The Blackstone spring injector also involves an air reservoir which is discharged into the cylinder to promote mixing.

 

I also believe the first Lister diesels had the double swirl chamber, where one half could be closed off to aid starting.  The Ricardo Comet in its 3 Marks was always a single chamber device, and the way the swirl was developed changed with each new version.  Both Lister and Ricardo employed the swirl chamber as an initial combustion chamber,   as did Perkins, though only part of the fuel was injected into the Perkins chamber.  The rest went into the cylinder.

 

N

 

 

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If it is the same NB my friend looked at he started it on the handle as the batteries were in a bad way with the help of another experienced Kelvin Owner - you could ask him about it as he took pictures / notes which might be useful to you. He has since bought another vintage Kelvin boat after seeing the one in Cannock

PM if it would help

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