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Living on River Severn or Kennett & Avon


daveswoodensigns

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40 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I hope you are not banking on fusion technology!

 

You tube can give you a very distorted view of canal life.  Go and live on one for 2 weeks then come back and tell us the truth,

Now that will be the day! All running around on our endless energy 🤣

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22 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I most strongly advise that you base your plans on current technology that is available now rather than some amazing technological advance that is just round the corner. In the world of software this sort of thing is known as "vapourware". On the other hand nuclear fusion is only 30 years away (still only 30 years away 😀 )  On that subject you will be ok to get a widebeam, I believe there are plans to construct a link to remove the North South divide and its going to happen reeeeeealy soon.

Have you looked at the company building electric canal boats, you might just be surprised what is available right now. 

 

The CRT is making plans to put in electric charging points, they know that is the way forward but as with most organisations in this country, we will probably lag behind the rest of Europe until we are forced to change. May be the very sad and evil events taking place in Ukraine and the fuel situation will make us all think a little more about our futures.

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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

 

The G&S on its own is probably too short for extended CCing without coming under the radar of the CRT enforcement officer, yet the Severn above Gloucester has few moorings and is prone to flooding. The banks are all private and you can't expect to just rock up somewhere and moor. And if you do find a suitable wild mooring somewhere it will certainly not have any access to shops, public transport or other signs of civilisation.

Last time I was in Gloucester we locked out with a wide beam who was complaint to his mate on the bank that they had to go up the Severn to keep CRT happy and felt that CRT were wrong forcing them to go onto a dangerous river. However the OP could cruise the length of the G&S and then carry on up stream to Stourport and come back down to the G&S repeat until winter. Not sure if he would find a winter mooring to charge his batteries. I have always struggled to find moorings on the Severn and last time paid the Avon trust to moor there for the night.

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7 minutes ago, daveswoodensigns said:

Have you looked at the company building electric canal boats, you might just be surprised what is available right now. 

 

The CRT is making plans to put in electric charging points, they know that is the way forward but as with most organisations in this country, we will probably lag behind the rest of Europe until we are forced to change. May be the very sad and evil events taking place in Ukraine and the fuel situation will make us all think a little more about our futures.

 

Yes, my original background is electrical/electronic engineering and I have read quite a lot about electric boats. Looking at the marketing stuff from a company trying to sell electric boats is not the best way to get impartial information. Inbuilt cocooned diesel generators do not really make an electric boat. I have lived on a boat for well over ten years and have cruised extensively and know how much power is required to sustain this lifestyle.

I think you have got yourself confused about CRT and electric charging points. CRT currently have no real plans for supporting electric boating. They have a few moorings which do have an electricity supply for domestic use and possibly heating, but these are mostly longer term moorings, not public charging points. They are also looking at electricity options in some London locations to reduce pollution. A network wide charging system for cruising boats is currently not even "vapourware".

 

I have massively reduced my CO2 emissions over the last couple of years but this has not involved an electric motor. That might be a future option, but not for a while yet.

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19 minutes ago, daveswoodensigns said:

The CRT is making plans to put in electric charging points,

Are they? I haven't seen anything about this. They are putting in electricity points in London so people don't run their nasty solid fuel stoves and diesel heaters/engines but not specifically recharging points.

 

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1 minute ago, Loddon said:

Are they? I haven't seen anything about this. They are putting in electricity points in London so people don't run their nasty solid fuel stoves and diesel heaters/engines but not specifically recharging points.

 

Lets face it, they cant even keep water taps, elsan disposal and rubbish bins operational and they don't have the money to maintain the locks let alone expand facilities.

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13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Lets face it, they cant even keep water taps, elsan disposal and rubbish bins operational and they don't have the money to maintain the locks let alone expand facilities.

 

Cart are kin useless, that's why I left I could see the system falling apart before my eyes.

 

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2 hours ago, daveswoodensigns said:

There does seem to be a lot of negative thoughts from people on this forum.

 

There are also a lot of "blue sky thinkers" and wearers of rose colored glasses who come on the forum in a manner that shows they seem to have done very little research, and I don't call U tube vids proper research because there is no independent scrutiny until it is published. Anyone contemplating doing as you intend with the boat you intend needs to consider the downsides and not brush them aside as negative thoughts. When I read your first post my first reaction was "here we go again". As you amplified your thoughts it rather tended to harden my view.

 

The banks and bed of most rivers, as opposed to most of the canals, are owned by adjacent land owners (riparian owners) so can allow mooring or not as they think fit. They can also charge what they like and do not have to provide any facilities. On the Thames, a few years ago, the fees ranged from £5 to £15 plus per night where mooring was allowed. The increasing numbers of those living on boats on the Thames has resulted in what had once been free mooring spots either now being charged for or totally withdrawn. Such free moorings as there are seem to be crowded with permanent moorers. The Avon between Bath and Bristol did not seem to have many suitable mooring spots either charged or free.

 

I am also worried that you have no idea about being on  rivers when in flood. What do you understand by "flood lines"?  Do you know how attempt to prevent your boat riding over the bank when the river is in flood? Will you be prepared to wade through swirling currents and across flooded fields, tracks and roads if you are caught in a flood? If caught in a flood (yes we do get them in summer) how do you plan to get water, fuel, dump rubbish and sewerage?

 

I suspect many wide beam "narrow boats" (hull shape) with diesels will struggle to move in flood conditions, let alone an electric boat with limited battery capacity (running flat out will drain the batteries far faster than just tootling along.  That is before considering if you have the knowledge and experience to read the water and know how it is likely to affect the boat when out in strong steam conditions.

 

You attention has already been drawn to the low solar output in winter and I will add that 6.5Kw of solar is only likely to provide about 3.25Kw in high summer and less at other times, as Mike points out,maybe 0.65Kw in the  dead of winter.

 

I don't think that you have done any sort of battery capacity and charging calculation because of you saying 100 Kw of batteries. You might mean 100 Kw hours battery capacity are usually given in Amp hours. So where did the 100 what ever of battery capacity come from? What is your projected electrical demands (called a power audit)? Let us see your charging calculations.

 

Even if you think that you will go into a marina in winter with an electrical hook up are you aware that in many you will not be allowed to live aboard or if you do you need to keep  a low profile so you do not get thrown out with no notice?

 

I think you will be far better suited to the canals, but not in poplar live aboard areas like London, Western K&A, and around Oxford because CCing in those areas is likely to be challenging unless you ignore CaRT regulations and hope they will not order you off the waterway or take steps to confiscate your boat.

 

Please do  a lot more research or you could get into all sorts of bother.

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22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't think that you have done any sort of battery capacity and charging calculation because of you saying 100 Kw of batteries. You might mean 100 Kw hours battery capacity are usually given in Amp hours. So where did the 100 what ever of battery capacity come from?

 

I suspect it came from this website which makes the same skoolboy error in the "Solar Electric Propulsion System (SEPS)" price section.

 

https://thamessolarelectric.co.uk/index.php?p=1_5

 

 

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4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I'm really doubtful about your degree of electrical knowledge given you are not even getting the units right. And can you really get 6.5kW of solar onto the roof of a 10ft widebeam? You realise the harvest from 6.5kW of solar will be closer to 0.65kW in winter?

(And then only for 4 hours per day.)

The OP needs to do a power audit and find out what his power consumption per day is likely to be. A 6.5kWh array -- assuming this can be fitted, which seems unlikely given roof area -- will give an average of about 20kWh/day in summer but less than 5kWh/day in midwinter, see attached plot from the Victron MPPT calculator.

 

100kWh of batteries is a truly enormous battery bank, far bigger than anything ever fitted on an inland waterways boat, and will cost several arms and legs; to have any chance of charging them and keeping them that way they'd probably have to be lithium.

 

An example of a state-of-the-art electric wideboat (with generator) can be seen here; 65' x 12', 30kW drive, 13kW generator, 50kWh lithium battery. I guess the price tag would be well north of £300k...

 

https://www.facebook.com/FinesseBoats

 

solar6p5kw.png

Edited by IanD
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Nothing will ever change if we are so negative.

 

Here is another company that is trying to do something to clean up the dirty diesel on our canals. https://www.ortomarine.co.uk/ They are based at a place I use to live. 

 

Regarding the 100 KW of batteries I did mean to say 100 kWh, sorry for that. I am not an electrical engineer but I have rewired my own house and have seriously looked into new battery technology for a number of years. I have seen over the years appalling electrical installations by so called professional installers. How some of them ever passed their exams is beyond me.

 

Here is another article that may be of interest talking about how we need to start making changes now to how we use the rivers and canals before legislation overtakes us boaters. https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blogs/waterfront/a-quiet-revolution

 

Yes, it will mean big changes so please can we all begin to pull together and look forward to helping the next generation of boaters to enjoy what we do. 

 

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1 minute ago, daveswoodensigns said:

Nothing will ever change if we are so negative.

 

Here is another company that is trying to do something to clean up the dirty diesel on our canals. https://www.ortomarine.co.uk/ They are based at a place I use to live. 

 

Regarding the 100 KW of batteries I did mean to say 100 kWh, sorry for that. I am not an electrical engineer but I have rewired my own house and have seriously looked into new battery technology for a number of years. I have seen over the years appalling electrical installations by so called professional installers. How some of them ever passed their exams is beyond me.

 

Here is another article that may be of interest talking about how we need to start making changes now to how we use the rivers and canals before legislation overtakes us boaters. https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blogs/waterfront/a-quiet-revolution

 

Yes, it will mean big changes so please can we all begin to pull together and look forward to helping the next generation of boaters to enjoy what we do. 

 

 

I'm not being negative, I'm having an electric (series hybrid) narrowboat built this year 😉

 

But the numbers you quoted are outside what is feasible or sensible even for a state-of-the-art wideboat like the one I posted, and you need to be well aware of the costs.

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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

The OP needs to do a power audit and find out what his power consumption per day is likely to be. A 6.5kWh array -- assuming this can be fitted, which seems unlikely given roof area -- will give an average of about 20kWh/day in summer but less than 5kWh/day in midwinter, see attached plot from the Victron MPPT calculator.

 

100kWh of batteries is a truly enormous battery bank, far bigger than anything ever fitted on an inland waterways boat, and will cost several arms and legs; to have any chance of charging them and keeping them that way they'd probably have to be lithium.

 

An example of a state-of-the-art electric wideboat (with generator) can be seen here; 65' x 12', 30kW drive, 13kW generator, 50kWh battery. I guess the price tag would be well north of £300k...

 

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FFinesseBoats%2Fposts%2F1629329577426594&show_text=true&width=500" width="500" height="359" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" allow="autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; picture-in-picture; web-share"></iframe>

 

solar6p5kw.png

"100kWh of batteries is a truly enormous battery bank, far bigger than anything ever fitted on an inland waterways boat, and will cost several arms and legs; to have any chance of charging them and keeping them that way they'd probably have to be lithium."

 

Solar Thames Boats already have this amount of batteries, all be it on a 12.6 widebeam.

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4 minutes ago, daveswoodensigns said:

Nothing will ever change if we are so negative.

 

Here is another company that is trying to do something to clean up the dirty diesel on our canals. https://www.ortomarine.co.uk/ They are based at a place I use to live. 

 

Regarding the 100 KW of batteries I did mean to say 100 kWh, sorry for that. I am not an electrical engineer but I have rewired my own house and have seriously looked into new battery technology for a number of years. I have seen over the years appalling electrical installations by so called professional installers. How some of them ever passed their exams is beyond me.

 

Here is another article that may be of interest talking about how we need to start making changes now to how we use the rivers and canals before legislation overtakes us boaters. https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/blogs/waterfront/a-quiet-revolution

 

Yes, it will mean big changes so please can we all begin to pull together and look forward to helping the next generation of boaters to enjoy what we do. 

 

 

Fine, it will all work perfectly for you, loads of mooring on the Avon and K&A with electrical hook ups that are suitable for propulsion battery charging and everything you read on websites it more than true.

 

There you are, what you wanted to hear, may not be true though.

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4 minutes ago, daveswoodensigns said:

it will mean big changes so please can we all begin to pull together and look forward to helping the next generation of boaters to enjoy what we do. 

Running a diesel boat on HVO =90% reduction in emissions far simpler 😉

You need to take into account the pollution footprint of having a new boat built with all this technology, how many years before you get to the "break even" point Vs a diesel boat running HVO?

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12 minutes ago, daveswoodensigns said:

"100kWh of batteries is a truly enormous battery bank, far bigger than anything ever fitted on an inland waterways boat, and will cost several arms and legs; to have any chance of charging them and keeping them that way they'd probably have to be lithium."

 

Solar Thames Boats already have this amount of batteries, all be it on a 12.6 widebeam.

 

OK, so it looks like they're fitting a huge (lead-carbon?) battery bank. All I can say is -- good luck keeping that charged and in good condition. Look very carefully at how many hours you'd need to run the generator (regularly) to stop sulphation -- which in spite of what some vendors claim still happens with lead-carbons, just not as badly as FLA cells. If they're FLA then the charging problem is much worse...

 

Take what the people selling such boats say with a very large pinch of salt -- there are many good reasons why people use lithium batteries in applications like this today. And it's unlikely that even a big solar array will give you enough power in the depths of winter, unless your power use is relatively low -- which is unlikely to be the case in a wideboat with lots of home comforts. A diesel generator is almost certainly needed, unless you intend to stay plugged-in all the time or only cruise in summer.

 

Some of us have spent a lot of time and effort (months...) looking into this, and wouldn't advise going down the Solar Thames Boats route... 😉

Edited by IanD
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Here is another interesting discussion about some of the latest solar technology. https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/most-efficient-solar-panels.

 

And what about this. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/15/uk-firms-solar-power-breakthrough-could-make-worlds-most-efficient-panels-by-2021

 

Been following these guys for a few years. https://insolight.ch/

 

The world is changing and these products are available now.

 

Happy reading folks.

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16 minutes ago, daveswoodensigns said:

Here is another interesting discussion about some of the latest solar technology. https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/most-efficient-solar-panels.

 

And what about this. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/15/uk-firms-solar-power-breakthrough-could-make-worlds-most-efficient-panels-by-2021

 

Been following these guys for a few years. https://insolight.ch/

 

The world is changing and these products are available now.

 

Happy reading folks.

 

The efficiency increases for all these "world's most efficient" panels are of the order of 1% or 2%, this is hardly a "breakthrough" when standard cheap off-the shelf mono PERC panels do better than 20%. The theoretical limit for silicon panels is about 25% so there's some room for improvement, but not that much. Adding perovskite might push this up a few percent if it can be commercialised and made reliable.

 

The super-high-efficiency panels (e.g. 45%) demonstrated in laboratories are far too expensive to ever make it into mass production, they use exotic materials and multilayer construction.

 

Insolight are just better than other see-through panels, they're lower yield than normal mono panels.

 

You really need to dig into all this in a lot more depth... 😉

Edited by IanD
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21 minutes ago, IanD said:

You really need to dig into all this in a lot more depth... 😉

 

Given daveswoodensigns' scepticism about what people here have said, I actually prefer he buys the boat he is planning and uses it, and comes back here periodically to confirm how right he is and how wrong we all have been.

 

So far, we have peterboat here as our only diehard widebeam electric liveaboard but he has a home mooring and rarely goes anywhere. A CCer on a fully solar-powered boat would be GREAT.

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3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Given daveswoodensigns' scepticism about what people here have said, I actually prefer he buys the boat he is planning and uses it, and comes back here periodically to confirm how right he is and how wrong we all have been.

 

So far, we have peterboat here as our only diehard widebeam electric liveaboard but he has a home mooring and rarely goes anywhere. A CCer on a fully solar-powered boat would be GREAT.

... but probably impractical without an onboard generator -- which even Peter acknowledges is needed in winter... 😉

 

(or charging points, obviously...)

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32 minutes ago, daveswoodensigns said:

Here is another interesting discussion about some of the latest solar technology. https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/most-efficient-solar-panels.

 

And what about this. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/15/uk-firms-solar-power-breakthrough-could-make-worlds-most-efficient-panels-by-2021

 

Been following these guys for a few years. https://insolight.ch/

 

The world is changing and these products are available now.

 

Happy reading folks.

Ahhhh grasshopper...........you have much to learn.  Real life full time living on boats is not anything like the same as the glossy mags produced as sales literature by boat companies and others trying to tell you what is now possible. One thing I remember from many years ago whilst looking for a liveaboard. I approached a company who " Specialised " in building live aboard narrowboats, they had all the answers. I was in the market for a new build at the time. I went to see them and listened to all the " Expert " advice they gave me. After a few minutes I asked the owner how long he had lived on his boat, it was a genuine question as he was telling me all about what did and did not work. He paused for a second and told me he lived in the house at the entrance to the yard, he had never lived on a boat.

I ended up that time buying a new shell from Johny Pinder and fitting it myself. There are good reasons that still, even today, many years later, the VAST majority of new builds still have diesel propulsion, and diesel gennies. Yes people fit solar nowadays as back up but reality in long dull winter days prove to those of us with experience what can and cannot be done. If you are happy with basic liveaboard facilities then much less leccy is needed of course, it dpends on how you want to live and thats different for everybody.

One last thing. There are plenty of knowledgable boaters on here, my suggestion would be to listen to their combined real world experience rather than those, whoever they are, wanting to sell you something, remember all sales people sell the best product in the World. I and many of us have met literaly hundreds of newby liveaboards with happy smiley faces in the warm summers over the years, later on during the first or sometimes the second, cold wet winter, we have seen their boats tied up and for sale, often at a great loss.

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You could always buy a bucket of sand and bury your head in that?

Read what others who know have written, not what some fly-by-night you tube kid imagines.

 

Do you know that it takes 3 times longer to put charge into a battery than it does to take it out?

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32 minutes ago, Tracy D&#x27;arth said:

Do you know that it takes 3 times longer to put charge into a battery than it does to take it out?

 

 

Last time I checked it took an absolute minimum of 8 hours to charge a battery from 50% to (near as dammit) fully charged, often closer to 12. With a generator.

 

But in winter with only solar, I suspect the batts would never fully charge for the full three months. 

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So the OP thinks he can CC along the River Severn and "perhaps" charge his batteries by plugging in to the mains on the way. 
Perhaps he would like to tell us how he is going to do that when the only sensible mooring points between Stourport and Gloucester are:
Worcester, Diglis Basin. 
Upton on Severn, either 24 hours on the Wal,l or in the Marina.
Tewkesbury, along the old Town Quay, which I think are 24 hour only.
Gloucester Dock.

And I see no negativity from anyone. What I do see is facts that don't fit the OP's ideas, so not the answers he is wanting.

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