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On 09/03/2022 at 10:37, Alan de Enfield said:

Four years does seem a long time between examinations - it gives plenty of opportunity for folks to fiddle about and make the boat non-compliant.

It could be sold and re-sold within that time period and there would be no record of "who did what"

 

For some time I have thought that if C&RT & the EA were serious about the BSS they could make the examination an annual event, as per the car MOT.

Four years doesn't sound unreasonable when measured against the insurance requirements for older craft, ours at 80 odd years needs a survey every 7 years and many have a five year interval. 

 As far as the Mot goes, even they advise that a valid certificate does not ensure that a vehicle is in a safe or reliable condition. 

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3 minutes ago, BWM said:

Four years doesn't sound unreasonable when measured against the insurance requirements for older craft, ours at 80 odd years needs a survey every 7 years and many have a five year interval. 

 

 

Indeed, but they are different things for different reasons.

 

The Insurance requirement is for a survey of the hull thickness to assess the chance of having a claim within the period. Generally (odd examples aside) the hull will not go from 'acceptable' to being underwater in a matter of a few years. It is simply the insurers minimising their risks

 

The BSS is looking at a risk assessment to waterway workers and passers-by from fire, explosion and emissions, and the possibility of the boat becoming unsafe (particularly with the numbers of people who 'fiddle' with things, do refits etc means that it is quite likely that during the 4-year period the boat will become non-compliant. Hence the warning :

 

The owner’s on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

 

Once your BSS has been invalidated then you boat becomes unlicenced as having a valid BSS is a condition of licencing.

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52 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

 

 

Once your BSS has been invalidated then you boat becomes unlicenced as having a valid BSS is a condition of licencing.

If you change something, anything,  your BSS remains valid unless it is cancelled on a further check.  It can't just cease to exist, someone has to actually cancel it.  You can't invalidate a one time check , it was either valid on that day, which is all it refers to, or it wasn't. It refers to a moment in time, not a continuing state. Otherwise, the whole thing becomes a nonsense (well, even more than it is already). Once you start down that road, you can demand a weekly visit from your friendly local BSS inspector at an annual retainer of who knows what, or the right to any CRT employee to inspect your boat at any time, any place with a brand new invented checklist. Or your licence can be revoked because you've painted your boat a different colour and not told CRT immediately.

The vast majority of boats sit in marinas and never get touched by their owners. Or get used a fortnight a year by a leisure boater on his holidays. Bi-annual checks are ridiculous for them.  There are about twenty boats on my mooring, and only two of us ever do anything to them at all, and I've never seen a dozen of them away from the farm.  Even four years is too often for a pointless waste of money like this.

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3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If you change something, anything,  your BSS remains valid unless it is cancelled on a further check.  It can't just cease to exist, someone has to actually cancel it.  You can't invalidate a one time check , it was either valid on that day, which is all it refers to, or it wasn't. It refers to a moment in time, not a continuing state. Otherwise, the whole thing becomes a nonsense (well, even more than it is already). Once you start down that road, you can demand a weekly visit from your friendly local BSS inspector at an annual retainer of who knows what, or the right to any CRT employee to inspect your boat at any time, any place with a brand new invented checklist. Or your licence can be revoked because you've painted your boat a different colour and not told CRT immediately.

The vast majority of boats sit in marinas and never get touched by their owners. Or get used a fortnight a year by a leisure boater on his holidays. Bi-annual checks are ridiculous for them.  There are about twenty boats on my mooring, and only two of us ever do anything to them at all, and I've never seen a dozen of them away from the farm.  Even four years is too often for a pointless waste of money like this.

 

 

Well said Arthur.

 

For most of us the BSS, like insurance, is just a piece of paper we have to have, simply to get a license. I suspect the number of people badly injured or killed by boats with a current but invalid BSS made invalid by changes since the last BSS inspection is vanishingly small. Zero in fact, I wouldn't mind betting. 

 

Its a non-problem made up by bureaucrats whose raison d'être is to make up rules for others to follow at no cost to themselves.

 

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49 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

the right to any CRT employee to inspect your boat at any time, any place with a brand new invented checklist.

 

Umm ...

 

Private boat licence T&C's

 

10.11.2. We can come on board the Boat to inspect it where We need to check You meet these Conditions. We will give You reasonable notice if We consider it is practical to do so;

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36 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Umm ...

 

Private boat licence T&C's

 

10.11.2. We can come on board the Boat to inspect it where We need to check You meet these Conditions. We will give You reasonable notice if We consider it is practical to do so;

 

 

I think we can thank Tony Dunkley for that one being introduced, can't we? 

 

 

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6 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

The new proposals you are arguing against only exist as a phantasy in the corporate mind of the AWCC, so can be safely discounted. 

Indeed. What is the status of this idea? Nothing on the BSS website about it that I have seen, but it is apparently stated in the members only section of the AWCC website. To me that doesn't amount to anything much at all.

Edited by David Mack
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On 13/03/2022 at 08:36, Slow and Steady said:

A coil of solid pipe or flexible? Either way it sounds like a bodge by someone who did not have a proper connecting pipe to hand, qualified or not.

He said it was not fitted according to manufacturer recommendations. He must have known there would be a gas cooker on the boat, so presumably he would bring an armoured connector if that was what he wanted. Anyway the boat has its Certificate and I am confident there are no leaks in the piping. Its not the way I expected, but its done. 

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1 minute ago, LadyG said:

He said it was not fitted according to manufacturer recommendations. He must have known there would be a gas cooker on the boat, so presumably he would bring an armoured connector if that was what he wanted. Anyway the boat has its Certificate and I am confident there are no leaks in the piping. Its not the way I expected, but its done. 

Except now you can't pull the cooker out to clean behind it.

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5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Except now you can't pull the cooker out to clean behind it.

As if! 

I did not describe the method, to avoid presumptive assessments. 

I'm sure you have an opinion, but I suggest you don't try to force it on me. 

If you read my posts you would see that I consider the BSC scheme to be flawed. This is based on my limited experience, I don't tell other people how to fit out their boat, and I suggest you do the same. 

 

 

 

6

 

Edited by LadyG
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7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

He said it was not fitted according to manufacturer recommendations. He must have known there would be a gas cooker on the boat, so presumably he would bring an armoured connector if that was what he wanted. Anyway the boat has its Certificate and I am confident there are no leaks in the piping. Its not the way I expected, but its done. 

Which is pretty useless IMO - Every gas cooker in the land is connected by a flexible pipe like this - millions of them - common as muck and WIDELY available. The fact it's in a boat does not make it special in any way whatsoever. Heavy duty yes, armoured no. Perhaps we've misunderstood and this is in fact what you have? He maybe supplied a long one which is now a "coil" because he didn't know beforehand how long it would need to be for your particular installation. :)

https://www.toolstation.com/gas-bayonet-cooker-hose/p90930?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=_dc&pcrid=558023894541&pkw=&pmt=&gclsrc=ds

Edited by Slow and Steady
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2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Umm ...

 

Private boat licence T&C's

 

10.11.2. We can come on board the Boat to inspect it where We need to check You meet these Conditions. We will give You reasonable notice if We consider it is practical to do so;

 

Nice to see that someone actually reads what they are signing (agreeing to)

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42 minutes ago, LadyG said:

He said it was not fitted according to manufacturer recommendations.

 

And I'd suggest it still isn't. 

 

When I did my boat LPG training a coil of rigid pipe was an acceptable method of connecting a permanently built-in oven but not a free-standing cooker. 

 

The ONLY acceptable method of connecting a free-standing cooker is with a flexible hose. Ideally one with a bayonet connector so the cooker can be disconnected by the user when they remove the cooker each week to clean under and behind it ( :giggles: ).

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

I think we can thank Tony Dunkley for that one being introduced, can't we? 

 

 

 

No, I don't think you can.

It predates C&RT and Dunk's battles by some years.

 

If I remember correctly it is actually written into one of the Waterways Acts from the 70's.

 

A screen shot of BW's 2008 licence T&Cs

 

 

 

 

 

Screenshot (1056).png

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On 12/03/2022 at 22:25, Arthur Marshall said:

My boat didn't fail the BSS, but he refused to leave till he'd found the leak, which was, not surprisingly at all, caused by one of the things that the BSS insisted I have.

 

 

we had that - a leak on the test point by the cooker that had been added because the BSS demanded it.

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20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No, I don't think you can.

It predates C&RT and Dunk's battles by some years.

 

If I remember correctly it is actually written into one of the Waterways Acts from the 70's.

 

A screen shot of BW's 2008 licence T&Cs

 

 

 

 

 

Screenshot (1056).png

I remember back in the good old poll tax days some boffin or other was demanding access to boats on our mooring to see who looked like they were resident. He climbed uninvited onto the side of the Oldest Resident's boat, banged on the side hatch and demanded it be opened. It was, followed by a splash. None of the rest of us ever met him.

But of course,  with good cause, they can, like many other officials, insist on entry.  What is good cause is, should one object, for a court to decide. By which time they won't find you, so, as so often, the law is an ass and it's a fuss about nothing.

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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2 hours ago, StephenA said:

 

we had that - a leak on the test point by the cooker that had been added because the BSS demanded it.

Suggests it was badly fitted rather than a bad idea. 

I would not have a bubble tester for two reasons, one of them being that it required cutting a perfectly sound gas pipe, two extra joints, in my view unnecessary. 

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

And I'd suggest it still isn't. 

 

When I did my boat LPG training a coil of rigid pipe was an acceptable method of connecting a permanently built-in oven but not a free-standing cooker. 

 

The ONLY acceptable method of connecting a free-standing cooker is with a flexible hose. Ideally one with a bayonet connector so the cooker can be disconnected by the user when they remove the cooker each week to clean under and behind it ( :giggles: ).

 It's fixed. 

Edited by LadyG
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30 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 It's fixed. 

 

In which case it's fine. In fact fixed appliances must NOT be connected with a flexible! 

 

Punters however, generally fail to see a difference between a free-standing cooker and a permanently installed fixed oven, and use the two terms (cooker and oven) interchangeably.

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18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Indeed, but they are different things for different reasons.

 

The Insurance requirement is for a survey of the hull thickness to assess the chance of having a claim within the period. Generally (odd examples aside) the hull will not go from 'acceptable' to being underwater in a matter of a few years. It is simply the insurers minimising their risks

 

The BSS is looking at a risk assessment to waterway workers and passers-by from fire, explosion and emissions, and the possibility of the boat becoming unsafe (particularly with the numbers of people who 'fiddle' with things, do refits etc means that it is quite likely that during the 4-year period the boat will become non-compliant. Hence the warning :

 

The owner’s on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

 

Once your BSS has been invalidated then you boat becomes unlicenced as having a valid BSS is a condition of licencing.

I understand the differences between them but there are a couple of points that form my opinion, one being that most insurers now require a full survey to include relevant equipment and the second being that in any scenario similar to those valid points you mention, it would likely be the insurers that cover the cost of much of the carnage. 

 It may well be that insurance companies are also in favour of the proposed changes and in the end it is hard to argue that better safety controls are a bad thing, as long as costs are within reason. 

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6 hours ago, BWM said:

 

 It may well be that insurance companies are also in favour of the proposed changes and in the end it is hard to argue that better safety controls are a bad thing, as long as costs are within reason. 

Imsurance companies are at the forefront of the queue for "swindler of the year" award. And costs are never within reason, unless you're the person charging them. They're whatever you can ramp them up to, and for something compulsory, the sky's the limit.

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  • 2 months later...
On 14/03/2022 at 17:50, Slow and Steady said:

Which is pretty useless IMO - Every gas cooker in the land is connected by a flexible pipe like this - millions of them - common as muck and WIDELY available. The fact it's in a boat does not make it special in any way whatsoever. Heavy duty yes, armoured no. Perhaps we've misunderstood and this is in fact what you have? He maybe supplied a long one which is now a "coil" because he didn't know beforehand how long it would need to be for your particular installation. :)

https://www.toolstation.com/gas-bayonet-cooker-hose/p90930?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=_dc&pcrid=558023894541&pkw=&pmt=&gclsrc=ds

Wrong, please don't make statements on safety issues when you have no idea, others might think you are a professional.

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On 14/03/2022 at 21:34, MtB said:

 

In which case it's fine. In fact fixed appliances must NOT be connected with a flexible! 

 

Punters however, generally fail to see a difference between a free-standing cooker and a permanently installed fixed oven, and use the two terms (cooker and oven) interchangeably.

 

 

Seeing as this thread has woken up again, and this week I've been doing my five-yearly gas exams (again!) this week, this exact point was covered. What I've said above isn't right. 

 

The gas regs demand that a flued appliance is both fixed in place and connected to the gas supply with rigid metal pipework.

 

Flueless appliances may be connected with flexible hoses. 

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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Wrong, please don't make statements on safety issues when you have no idea, others might think you are a professional.

Begging your pardon, but what exactly is wrong? What I described is exactly what I and er, everyone else who's gas-safe installer actually understands the regs has installed. If you have fixed solid pipe all the way your installer did not understand and opted for belt and braces. Pretty damn sure I'm right and you are simply rude and ignorant.

 

Interesting that Mike above even got it wrong initially and he's a certified gas plumber!

Edited by Slow and Steady
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