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Dallow Lk. T&MC


oboat

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It seems very odd that Dallow Lock, on the T&M, the last lock before Burton-on-Trent is only 7’-6” wide.
It is not a deep lock, only about 3’-6” so why did the company not take the wide waterway up to the trade in Burton-on-Trent? 
 

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7 hours ago, oboat said:

 

It seems very odd that Dallow Lock, on the T&M, the last lock before Burton-on-Trent is only 7’-6” wide.
It is not a deep lock, only about 3’-6” so why did the company not take the wide waterway up to the trade in Burton-on-Trent? 
 

 

When we used to be based on the T&M at Willington I was told it was a cost issue related to the expense of building wide locks so they reverted to narrow locks during construction.

 

I dont know how true this is.

 

A 'proper' canal historian will be along shortly.

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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I think is was originally a wide lock but was rebuilt as a narrow lock, possibly when the canal was restored. The bridgehole looks wide enough for a wide lock. I don't know how far widebeams could originally go, the turnover bridge beyond Tattenhill lock is narrowbeam, poss Burton on Trent was the limit of wideband navigation.

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3 hours ago, Mortimer Mouse said:

I think is was originally a wide lock but was rebuilt as a narrow lock, possibly when the canal was restored. The bridgehole looks wide enough for a wide lock. I don't know how far widebeams could originally go, the turnover bridge beyond Tattenhill lock is narrowbeam, poss Burton on Trent was the limit of wideband navigation.

 

The bridge is an 'A' suggesting it's construction post dates the canal construction and it is indeed wide enough to span a wide lock further suggesting the current lock is not the original as you suggest.  But if Rob is correct the wide locks stopped before they got to Horninglow.

 

As an aside - one thing I recall about that lock was the emptying flow when moored waiting to go up. It always seemed to catch the bow of our boat and swing it out unless you were tied up properly/ready for it.

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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9 hours ago, oboat said:

 

It seems very odd that Dallow Lock, on the T&M, the last lock before Burton-on-Trent is only 7’-6” wide.
It is not a deep lock, only about 3’-6” so why did the company not take the wide waterway up to the trade in Burton-on-Trent? 
 

 

The thought had occurred to me given the connection with the Bond End Canal (now Shobnall Marina) which was also wide and connected to the Trent - why did the T&M hobble themselves with a width restriction when Trent Barges could get to Burton via the Trent and Bond End

 

2 hours ago, Mortimer Mouse said:

I think is was originally a wide lock but was rebuilt as a narrow lock, possibly when the canal was restored. The bridgehole looks wide enough for a wide lock. I don't know how far widebeams could originally go, the turnover bridge beyond Tattenhill lock is narrowbeam, poss Burton on Trent was the limit of wideband navigation.

 

Plausible, except for the bit I've highlighted as the T&M has never been restored - it is possible that the lock was narrowed. 

As an aside can anyone name locks that have been narrowed - I can only think of two - the entrance lock to the Coal Canal at Dundas and (I think) Kings Norton on the Stratford - both pf which were stop locks. There is some suggestion that Isis lock linking the Oxford to the Castle Mill Stream and thence to the Thames was once wide

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11 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

As an aside can anyone name locks that have been narrowed

Hurleston bottom lock,  Stret Lock, that one on the Napton flight... plus a few on the Rochdale...

 

Not forgetting Aylesbury Arm Lock 12

img_0477.jpg

(Photo: Peter Scott)

Edited by David Mack
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4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Hurleston bottom lock,  Stret Lock, that one on the Napton flight... plus a few on the Rochdale...

:lol:

 

Let me be more precise....

 

How many have been deliberately reduced in gauge from wide beam to narrow beam i.e 10 foot plus to about 7 foot

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44 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

As an aside can anyone name locks that have been narrowed - I can only think of two - the entrance lock to the Coal Canal at Dundas and (I think) Kings Norton on the Stratford - both pf which were stop locks. There is some suggestion that Isis lock linking the Oxford to the Castle Mill Stream and thence to the Thames was once wide

I am pretty certain Dutton Lock from the Bridgewater to the T&MC was originally wider, possibly 14 feet.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Locks on the Trent & Mersey did vary in depth, Dallow was alway narrow. It must be remembered that there was a rival navigation in evistence at time the Trent & Mersey was built, that was the Upper Trent Navigation which reached Burton and served that town. The turnpike through the east side of Burton was chosen as a convenient spot at Horninglow as a convenient place for barge traffic could terminate. Any incursion further north would have crossed the lands of the Paget family who owned the Upper Trent Navigation and the later Bond End Canal. They were concerned to ensure trade on their waterways. Besides, the turnpike was a convenient spot for road transport into Burton

 

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Could water supply also be a reason? If there is a supply of water coming in below Dallow to feed the extra demand of wide locks, compared with narrow, but not above. Got water coming in from the Trent at Alrewas above Burton, but then narrow locks to Burton, so more water required to supply a single broad lock within the town. Would depend on the proportion of through traffic, compared with the Burton to Shardlow traffic. I have no idea if there is a feeder around Horninglow.

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3 hours ago, Heartland said:

Locks on the Trent & Mersey did vary in depth, Dallow was alway narrow. It must be remembered that there was a rival navigation in evistence at time the Trent & Mersey was built, that was the Upper Trent Navigation which reached Burton and served that town. The turnpike through the east side of Burton was chosen as a convenient spot at Horninglow as a convenient place for barge traffic could terminate. Any incursion further north would have crossed the lands of the Paget family who owned the Upper Trent Navigation and the later Bond End Canal. They were concerned to ensure trade on their waterways. Besides, the turnpike was a convenient spot for road transport into Burton

 

Thank you Ray for an illuminating answer - one tends to forget just how much vested interests were a "thing" for most of our commercial history 

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11 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

Thank you Ray for an illuminating answer - one tends to forget just how much vested interests were a "thing" for most of our commercial history 

That was only in the south and midlands, in the north we could not afford vests.

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That was only in the south and midlands, in the north we could not afford vests.

 

Nae money  to invest in them ? May be you northerners were a hardy people at least you had clogs to keep the feet warm in the snow, hail, sleet and ice when crossing summit level of the Leeds and Liverpool Canal.

 

As to additional water supplies on this section, I cannot recall one, at present, There was a stream that flowed into the Bond End Canal, however. The Dove and its branches flowed under the canal east of Burton. There is the main Dove Aqueduct and several flood arches on that section. At the Junction with the Derby Canal additional water flowed in there, but early on it also flowed out through the locks into the Trent

 

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The Bond End built by the Trent Navigation was illegally connected to the Trent and Mersey. After protracted negotiation the junction was allowed but the connection was made through the still  existing narrows and bridge so as to prevent wide beam upper Trent boats from reaching the T & M.

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On 14/03/2022 at 18:04, Heartland said:

Locks on the Trent & Mersey did vary in depth, Dallow was alway narrow. It must be remembered that there was a rival navigation in evistence at time the Trent & Mersey was built, that was the Upper Trent Navigation which reached Burton and served that town. The turnpike through the east side of Burton was chosen as a convenient spot at Horninglow as a convenient place for barge traffic could terminate. Any incursion further north would have crossed the lands of the Paget family who owned the Upper Trent Navigation and the later Bond End Canal. They were concerned to ensure trade on their waterways. Besides, the turnpike was a convenient spot for road transport into Burton

 

Thanks thats very interesting, I had not picked up the turnpike connection.

As this site is renown, for being a font of waterway (and often railway) knowledge I was a little disappointed that no documented explanation to this conundrum had surfaced.
So I did a little more digging myself. So, to recap. 

The section to Burton is said to have been completed to Burton by 1770 however I suspect that refers to Horninglow.
1). As said, lock (No 7) is only 3’-6” deep so an original build at 7’-6” would amount to a relatively small cost saving to be set against a wide access from the R Trent to a principal trading hub all be it in competition.

 

2). I didn’t know of any water shortage.

 

3). This section of the T&M has never been restored or re-built so that is out.

That said, the Co would need to start the change of gauge somewhere.

As is often the situation, my investigation led to some new curios.
  
The original Br No’s 33, 34, 37 & 38 look to have been built to wide dimensions. 
Lock No’s 7, 8 & 9 are narrow. As are bridge No’s 35 & 36 clearly narrow but look to be to a totally different design to that of the others. 

So, my conclusions were as follows.
A design change was made after the construction of Bridge No’s 33, 34, 37 & 38.
for the reasons given by Heartland.
It was & still is common practice to build a bridge, before a road-bed of whatever type is excavated below a bridge. 
Thus, the locks 7 to 9 were built post construction started on the wide bridges. 
Br 35 is virtually integral with Lk 9 and also a turnover Br. 

Br 36 is a Turnover Br so could also be built without interrupting any local road traffic. 
Which begs the question, was the TO bridge built to avoid Paget land? 

The narrow access to the Bond End Canal would also support this conclusion as it was not constructed until the 1790’s when a lock down off the T&M about 3’-9” also had to be built.

What could have been. Note:

As both locks 7&8 are both only about 3”-6” ish deep. 
Not dropping T&M bed between locks 7&8 to the level of the BEC seems a little short sighted as it would have increased the value of both the BEC (Warehousing) & the T&M by cutting out transhipment into Burton.
But then the T&M was never one for upgrading its carrying capacity

Edited by oboat
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On 14/03/2022 at 19:04, Heartland said:

Locks on the Trent & Mersey did vary in depth, Dallow was alway narrow. It must be remembered that there was a rival navigation in evistence at time the Trent & Mersey was built, that was the Upper Trent Navigation which reached Burton and served that town. The turnpike through the east side of Burton was chosen as a convenient spot at Horninglow as a convenient place for barge traffic could terminate. Any incursion further north would have crossed the lands of the Paget family who owned the Upper Trent Navigation and the later Bond End Canal. They were concerned to ensure trade on their waterways. Besides, the turnpike was a convenient spot for road transport into Burton

 

Did you mean to say “the turnpike through the east side of Burton”, as Horninglow is on the west side?

The entrance to Shobnall is narrow, and any arguments about wide beam access to the T&M seem irrelevant not just because of that, but also as Dallow and Branston locks are narrow, wide beam traffic would be impossible in either direction.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 05/03/2022 at 11:18, magpie patrick said:

:lol:

 

Let me be more precise....

 

How many have been deliberately reduced in gauge from wide beam to narrow beam i.e 10 foot plus to about 7 foot

The stop lock at the entrance to the Ashby was originally 14' wide and rebuilt to its current narrow form in 1819.

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I was wondering how long it would take for this one to come up!

2 hours ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

The stop lock at the entrance to the Ashby was originally 14' wide and rebuilt to its current narrow form in 1819.

Do we know why?

 

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Yes to Ashby

 

The canal was built, at least in part, probably the most part, as a barge canal as the intention had been initially that way, as I explain on p 77 of Silent Highways.

As the only connection made was with Coventry Canal, the lock, or stop lock, was served by narrow boats, although there is mention of wider boats operating on the Ashby, if I recall correctly.

 

As to Horninglow

 

The basin, was and is, located on the east side of Burton

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