Original Dutch Barges - Looking for advice on buying one. New to boating

[George1001]

Hello! I'm new to boating and I'm looking for advice on buying a Dutch Barge, I'm looking at an advert for a ( 1912 AAK Type Barge ).

Generally speaking, how are the hulls on boats this old?

What are things to look out for when buying?

Should I buy a newer replica?

Where is the best place to buy one?

 

All advice is greatly appreciated

 

Thank you,

George

Edited March 3, 2022 by George1001

[Guest]

1 minute ago, George1001 said:

Hello! I'm new to boating and I'm looking for advice on buying a Dutch Barge, I am currently looking at a 1912 AAK Type Barge.

Generally speaking, how are the hulls on boats this old?

What are things to look out for when buying?

Should I buy a newer replica?

 

All advice is greatly appreciated

 

Thank you,

George

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

There are a couple on here who may help but joining the Dutch Barge association (now the Barge association) may prove more fruitful.

 

https://barges.org/

[Bee]

Hi George. The Dutch Barge Association is the place to go but briefly the hulls are like all steel or iron boats subject to corrosion and although I might buy a narrowboat without a survey because they are smallish and relatively straightforward to repair I would not trust my own experience with a barge. This is a mighty subject and moorings etc. need careful research. The amount of annual painting and general maintenance is consideranle too. There are some fabulous historic vessels in Holland (and here) but to have survived from 1912 a lot of work has been done to still be here and that work is ongoing. As with everything your budget will dictate your choices. Good luck

[Alan de Enfield]

50 minutes ago, George1001 said:

Hello! I'm new to boating and I'm looking for advice on buying a Dutch Barge, I'm looking at an advert for a ( 1912 AAK Type Barge ).

Generally speaking, how are the hulls on boats this old?

What are things to look out for when buying?

Should I buy a newer replica?

Where is the best place to buy one?

 

All advice is greatly appreciated

 

Thank you,

George

 

I think it is safe to say that the advice will be 'varied', and, as is the norm, will be based on an indviduals experiences on similar vessels.

 

What is your experience ?
Are you 'a boater', are you experienced on Inland waterways in Europe or the UK ?

Have you had an steel boat before

 

Are you really ready to take on what the broker generously calls a 'Unique project to be completed' ?

 

Are you 'mechanically minded' and prepared to 'get your hands dirty'. Repairers for these types of boats are few and far between and costs reflect their expertise and lack of competition.

 

You are unlikely to need a 355hp engine on the UK inland waters

 

Are you prepared to (potentially) spend £10s of thousands to keep it afloat ?

 

Are you planning to actually use it as a boat, or simply as a 'floating flat' ?

Are you aware of the limiting factors for its use on UK Inland Waterways (6 feet + Draft, 14 feet beam & displacement 110 tonnes) ?

 

The beam and Draft are almost identical to my boat and I have had to move it to coastal waters' as it is too big for Inland Waterways and Canals.

 

This is the one you are lookig at ?

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[George1001]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think it is safe to say that the advice will be 'varied', and, as is the norm, will be based on an indviduals experiences on similar vessels.

 

What is your experience ?
Are you 'a boater', are you experienced on Inland waterways in Europe or the UK ?

Have you had an steel boat before

 

Are you really ready to take on what the broker generously calls a 'Project' ?

 

Are you 'mechanically minded' and prepared to 'get your hands dirty'. Repairers for these types of boats are few and far between and costs reflect their expertise and lack of competition.

 

You are unlikely to need a 355hp engine on the UK inland waters

 

Are you prepared to (potentially) spend £10s of thousands to keep it afloat ?

 

Are you planning to actually use it as a boat, or simply as a 'floating flat' ?

Are you aware of the limiting factors for its use on UK Inland Waterways (6 feet + Draft and 14 feet beam) ?

 

The beam and Draft are almost identical to my boat and I have had to move it to coastal waters' as it is too big for Inland Waterways and Canals.

 

This is the one you are lookig at ?

 

Hi Alan, thanks for the info. No that isn't the one I'm looking at. Do you think it's a smarter idea to buyer a newer Widebeam boat? This is the one I'm looking at;

https://dutchbargesforsale.co.uk/barges_for_sale_in_the_uk/6299/17m_dutch_barge_aak_type.html

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, George1001 said:

Hi Alan, thanks for the info. No that isn't the one I'm looking at. Do you think it's a smarter idea to buyer a newer Widebeam boat? This is the one I'm looking at;

https://dutchbargesforsale.co.uk/barges_for_sale_in_the_uk/6299/17m_dutch_barge_aak_type.html

 

That is certainly a better option than the one I was looking at.

Not been dry-docked for 8 years !

Steel thickness 'unknown' to be determined by Surveyor (so you are going to have to spend ~£1000 to find out if it insurable)

 

Where and how do you plan to use it ?

What boating experince do you have ?

How mechanically minded are you ?

 

BOAT stands for Bring Out Another Thousand (or in the case of early 1900s boats - BOATT - Bring Out Another Ten Thousand)

You need to be fully committed to an old boat and the work and costs that are involved - that is why it is costed at £77000 when a new widebeam boat of similar proportions will be twice the price and even up to £250,000 for a well fitted out on.

 

You will spend the same amount over time, its just a case of a 'lump-sum' up front and very little to pay in the future, or a Small up-front payment and huge bills every year or two,

 

There are one or two members on the forum who own, or have been involved in similar boats, it would be a good idea to see what they have to say.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, George1001 said:

Hi Alan, thanks for the info. No that isn't the one I'm looking at. Do you think it's a smarter idea to buyer a newer Widebeam boat? This is the one I'm looking at;
 

 

Or if you like the look of a Dutch Barge you could go for a newer replica. Something a like a Piper. (but note these have shot up in price recently)

 

The initial cost will be (a lot) more but will normally be a lot less than fixing up a boat from 1912 to a safe and liveable standard. Unless that is you can do just about everything yourself and only pay for materials.

 

People who fix boats like that for a living do that 'sucking intake of breath' thing better than even the most expensive car mechanic.

[George1001]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That is certainly a better option than the one I was looking at.

Not been dry-docked for 8 years !

Steel thickness 'unknown' to be determined by Surveyor (so you are going to have to spend ~£1000 to find out if it insurable)

 

Where and how do you plan to use it ?

What boating experince do you have ?

How mechanically minded are you ?

 

BOAT stands for Bring Out Another Thousand (or in the case of early 1900s boats - BOATT - Bring Out Another Ten Thousand)

You need to be fully committed to an old boat and the work and costs that are involved - that is why it is costed at £77000 when a new widebeam boat of similar proportions will be twice the price and even up to £250,000 for a well fitted out on.

 

You will spend the same amount over time, its just a case of a 'lump-sum' up front and very little to pay in the future, or a Small up-front payment and huge bills every year or two,

 

There are one or two members on the forum who own, or have been involved in similar boats, it would be a good idea to see what they have to say.

Thank you again for the advice, fully taking on board.

 

To answer your questions,

Where and how do you plan to use it ? - I plan to live on it mostly and to travel a few times a year down the canals.

What boating experince do you have ? - Little to none boating experience, although very keen to learn.

How mechanically minded are you ? - Slightly mechanically minded but no mechanic 

The other perhaps more sensible option would be a newer WideBeam boat such as;

https://www.aquavista.com/buy-or-sell-a-boat/boats-for-sale/queen-of-the-isle
https://www.aquavista.com/buy-or-sell-a-boat/boats-for-sale/old-dutch

Thank you all for the help

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, George1001 said:

I plan to live on it mostly and to travel a few times a year down the canals.

 

It will not fit on some of the canals - where are you planning to be based ?

 

The 'South' (London to Bristol ish) will be OK, the North well above above Birmingham on the East Side (Nottingham) will be OK, but the 'middle bit' is restricted to boat 7 feet wide.

 

 

Maps showng where boats up to 12 feet beam can go (and not go) Red for wide boats. You will see that there is no connection NOrth to South for any boat over 7 feet beam.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[George1001]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It will not fit on some of the canals - where are you planning to be based ?

 

The 'South' (London to Bristol ish) will be OK, the North above Birmingham will be OK, but the 'middle bit' is restricted to boat 7 feet wide.

 

 

Maps showng where boats up to 12 feet beam can go (and not go)

I'm based in the south, I work in London so won't be too far from a communter line

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, George1001 said:

I'm based in the south, I work in London so won't be too far from a communter line

 

Then before buying a boat - find a mooring.

Residential moorings in London are a combination of Hens Teeth and Rocking Horse Poo.

A residential mooring will cost you a minimum of £10k per annum and the ones that go to auction often make £15k per annum.

[George1001]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then before buying a boat - find a mooring.

Residential moorings in London are a combination of Hens Teeth and Rocking Horse Poo.

A residential mooring will cost you a minimum of £10k per annum and the ones that go to auction often make £15k per annum.

We have found a mooring nearby which is almost a third cheaper than that

[KenK]

My wife and I own a replica Luxemotor which was designed as a liveaboard, be aware that old barges were designed to carry cargo. A 17 metre barge has probably been cut down from its original size and an old boat will have needed overplating, hopefully done correctly. I would second the advice to join the Barge Association many of the members own old dutch barges of various types and will be happy to answer questions. Take a look at the DBA website you do not need to be a member to view a lot of the content.

[Tony Brooks]

25 minutes ago, George1001 said:

We have found a mooring nearby which is almost a third cheaper than that

 

Alan was talking about genuine residential moorings, not a leisure mooring  where you have to stay below the radar or possibly get thrown off with no notice. I bet the one you found is a leisure mooring.

 

I think I have seen 20K quoted for a London residential mooring.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, George1001 said:

We have found a mooring nearby which is almost a third cheaper than that

 

Leisure moorings will be, but residential moorings are (usually), if you can find one, the sort of figures I indicated.

Are you looking well out of London ? Is it a 'proper' residential mooring ?

 

Have I misunderstood that you are looking to live on the boat ?

[George1001]

Ah okay, thank you for pointing that one out. 

Yes I'm looking well out of London and looking to live full time in the boat

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, George1001 said:

Ah okay, thank you for pointing that one out. 

Yes I'm looking well out of London and looking to live full time in the boat

 

You have absolutely no security of tenure for a boat mooring - you can be told to leave with 5 minutes notice and I have known it happen. Always have a plan B and be in a postion where not knowing where you will be tomorrow doesn't impact too much on your life.

 

Some marinas do not offer residential moorings, but turn a blind eye to 'high usage'. 

On a residential mooring you will pay council tax, you can use the adress for banking, licences and mail, on a leisure mooring you get not of these.

 

Each marina will have different ideas / rules - one marina group I was in had a rule that 'high-usage' of the boat was acceptable on a leisure mooring as long as you spent 1 night per month away from the marina - another marina at the other extreme limited nights spent on board to 28 per annum.

 

If you do use a 'keep your head down' marina then ensure you do not cause any offence or problems to your neighbours or the marina. Typically no washing is allowed to be 'hung-out' on the boat, nothing to be stored on the pontoon, no smokey BBQs on the boat, no smokey fires on the boat, no emptying the toilet over the side, etc etc etc.

The marina owners own the marina, they make the rules, if you want a mooring you follow the rules, or leave,

 

In one marina I was in, a boat was re-fuelling on his mooring and not at the re-fuelling pontoon, he was asked to leave immediately, another moorer got an axe and started to cut his mooring lines and the Police were called. On arrival the Police had the situation explained to them, they supported the Marina owner and the Boat was 'gone' within minutes. No idea where he spent the night.

A week or so later we heard he had been evicted for a marina about 20 miles away.

 

Some folk never learn.

[Tam & Di]

Unless you find a genuine residential mooring you are going to have to comply with CRT Continuous Cruising regulations which involve moving regularly, and if you are restricted to being within commuting distance of London that is improbable. For a person with little or no previous boating experience an aak seen in the ad will be much more difficult to handle than a decent modern UK widebeam, or indeed any vessel with a pointy bow. It is quite high at the fore end and will be taken sideways by even light winds, especially as an aak has no stem post to hold it steady. Its handling will also be affected by how it was motorised - it will be inherently unhandy unless there were modifications to the original sailing craft stern.

 

Tam

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

Unless you find a genuine residential mooring you are going to have to comply with CRT Continuous Cruising regulations which involve moving regularly,

 

Not 100% true. If you don't have a home mooring you have to comply. That cab  be a leisure mooring, online or proper residential.

[sueb]

How many crew will you have? Singlehanding won't be easy. Good luck

[Bee]

It is an ex sailing barge. Personally I love the character inherent in the varieties of sailing barges but they do sit on the water like a big oval saucer and they tend to slide going round bends. I have never steered one in reverse but it might be a bit random where it actually goes. It appears to have been overplated in the pic which is only to be expected, if you go for it I would choose a surveyor who has knowlege of barges, rivets, how these boats were actually built (quite lightly compared to a narrowboat) and the bits that rust that are not the same as narrowboats, decks, edges and rivetted bits that rust forces off.  Don't be put off but its quite a learning curve. Good Luck!

[Athy]

16 hours ago, George1001 said:

 

The other perhaps more sensible option would be a newer WideBeam boat such as;

https://www.aquavista.com/buy-or-sell-a-boat/boats-for-sale/queen-of-the-isle
https://www.aquavista.com/buy-or-sell-a-boat/boats-for-sale/old-dutch

 

'Old Dutch' caught my eye, until I read that it has no engine. I wonder why it hasn't.

[Tam & Di]

There were lots of interior shots but I couldn't see anything about engine or other equipment. I did see an upside down union flag at half mast in the photo though. 🤷‍♂️

 

Tam

[Onewheeler]

Chances are high that she'll need some overplating and welding, but that's normal for a boat of that age and needs to be factored in to your budget. Our barge is a similar age and there's always some hull work needed at docking. The engine at 44 kW might be a bit low powered but unless you're planning on taking it up the Rhine it should cope with the Thames (looks like the Thames from the pictures, but can't place where near Oxford unless it's an assortment of places - some of the pictures look like Oxford Cruisers at Eynsham).

Edited March 4, 2022 by Onewheeler

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Athy said:

'Old Dutch' caught my eye, until I read that it has no engine. I wonder why it hasn't.

 

1 minute ago, Tam & Di said:

There were lots of interior shots but I couldn't see anything about engine or other equipment. I did see an upside down union flag at half mast in the photo though. 🤷‍♂️

 

Tam

 

 

I think it has no engine or 'boating equipment' because some manufacturers believe that if it has no means of propulsion it can be classed as a 'house boat' - however the HMRC are very clear on what they consider a house boat to be.

 

I believe there are some VAT benefits of it being a house boat (that cannot easily be converted to being a boat), but if that is correct - any buyer that plans on fitting an engine and making it mobile, should realise that the payment of VAT on the original purchase price may become due.

 

 

7. The VAT treatment of houseboats

7.1 Definition of a houseboat

A houseboat is defined for the purposes of VAT as being a floating decked structure which:

• is designed or adapted for use solely as a place of permanent habitation
• does not have the means of, and which is not capable of being readily adapted for, self-propulsion

7.2 Self-propulsion

This term refers to any vessel that is either:

• independently propelled
• not independently propelled but could readily be adapted to be capable of self-propulsion, for example by installing an engine, propeller or mast

It’s unlikely that a vessel such as a barge or a yacht would be regarded as a houseboat for the purposes of VAT because they’re likely to lend themselves to being readily adapted.

7.3 How to treat the sale of a houseboat

If you sell a houseboat or let it on hire for towing away to a mooring of your customer’s choice your supply is zero-rated.

Otherwise the sale of a boat, which is not a houseboat as defined above, is normally standard-rated.