Temporary hanging anodes: connection vs protection location

[Tiboo]

In the process of selling my narrowboat, the surveyor commented there would be need for 1 more anode on each side. Indeed, I noticed there is 1 location where the distance between them is inferior to 5m: 6,8m. While I personally don't really bother, the insurance company I found wants these comments sorted :~/ (and for the moment I found just 2 insurance companies that were ok with the 4mm overplating - see my previous thread!).

I don't feel like craning out my boat for a couple of anodes at the moment so I'm considering hanging them temporarily, until it gets craned out for blacking, when they could be welded on. I'm thinking to strap them, spanning the hull from one gunnel to the other. (I'd use some rubber around sharp parts of the anodes to avoid them scratching the paint off.) On the gunnel I have these brass attachment points for fenders, which I'm sure will also work well to electrically hook up the anodes.

Now, if you're still as enthusiastic as I am at this point, my question is: where is the anode actually protecting the hull? Is it a radius of about 2,5m around the anode, or around the electric connection to the hull..!? (If the latter is true; there won't be much hull protection if they're attached to the rail on the roof, as someone was considering in another thread.)

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Njiruk

[dmr]

Don't want to open a can of worms, or maybe I do, but some people think that anodes don't do anything on canal boats. Maybe they are good in a marina with electrical connections, and maybe the back ones offer some protection to the stern gear with dissimilar metals, but otherwise its questionable.

Still, lots of surveyors are now recommending lots and lots of anodes and I would not wish to argue with the experts. 😀

Don't worry about it.

[Alan de Enfield]

The anode needs to be 'electrically connected' to the area it is expected to protect.

 

Sea going boats have 'hanging anodes' and tou connect the end of the wire to whatever you are trying to protect - propshaft, hull fitting etc.

For example my hull fittings (I have 13 hull openings below the water line), on the inside of the boat each sea-cock is connected by a single core cable to an anode volted thru the fibreglass hull.

 

For example, this circular anode on the bow - the inside of the bolt has an 'electric' cable running to the sea-cock for the forward toilet. The sea-cock is just off the picture to the right.

This ensures that the 'zinc' erodes before the brass of the sea-cock.

 

 

 

How hanging anodes work (article)

 

How To Fit Hanging Anodes - Anode Outlet

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

 

I think they just protect the part of the hull hull behind the actual anode......

 

 

Nice cider, this! 

[blackrose]

I don't think i the user of anodes in fresh water is questionable at all. Galvanic action which is what anodic protection is based on is a scientifically proven fact. It's simply that fresh water isn't a particularly "active" electrolyte so the process is much slower (than in salt water) but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

 

I've seen the early stages of pitting all over grit blasted hulls but much less so around the anodes.

Edited March 2, 2022 by blackrose

[dmr]

Just now, MtB said:

 

I think they just protect the part of the hull hull behind the actual anode......

 

 

Nice cider, this! 

 

I'm on the Thatchers, what you drinking?  I took your advice and agree that the slightly harsher Thatchers is better than Henry Westons which is just a tad too sweet, though the Westons organic is very good.

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

There are boats 50+ years old that have never had anodes, still floating.

Putting then in the middle of a hull without a recess is asking for trouble getting them hung up.

In my experience they may protect around 1.5 metres around their mounting. They certainly loosen paint and blacking in that area.

Unless they are substantially connected by bolting or welding they do nothing.

Its a surveyors current wish list that has little or no practical benefit.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Tracy D'arth

[blackrose]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

There are boats 50+ years old that have never had anodes, still floating.

 

 

But that may be due to a multitude of other factors and variables, plus with anodes those boats may last even longer.

Edited March 2, 2022 by blackrose

[dmr]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

There are boats 50+ years old that have never had anodes, still floating.

Putting then in the middle of a hull without a recess is asking for trouble getting then hung up.

In my experience they may protect around 1.5 metres around their mounting. They certainly loosen paint and blacking in that area.

Unless they are substantially connected by bolting or welding they do nothing.

Its a surveyors current wish list that has little or no practical benefit.

 

I think that's it exactly, they only protect a very small area, so unless you fit a Lot (like a lot more than 4 or 6) they are of limited use. And if the boat is sealed with epoxy they probably don't do anything at all.

Ours are pretty worn out and I need to delay coming out of the water for another year so I might have to eat my words 😀

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I'm on the Thatchers, what you drinking?  I took your advice and agree that the slightly harsher Thatchers is better than Henry Westons which is just a tad too sweet, though the Westons organic is very good.

 

 

 

 

I'm on my last Henry Westons Vintage 😥

 

I've spent an hour compiling an order with Ocado, including a couple of boxes of Westons. On getting to checkout the fkn thing announced the Westons was "out of stock".... AGAIN. 

 

I dunno why I bother with Ocado. 

 

Actually I do, they always have delivery slots the next day instead of a two week wait like Tesco, Sainsbury's etc. This sort of shyte is prolly why...

[dmr]

I miss Bedwyn but the North is better, there's a Morrisons just down the road and they have loads of cider.

We were talking about this shopping stuff only yesterday, its probably actually quicker to drive to the shop than it is to shop on the internet, it takes ages.

Ocado are quite good, as are Tesco, Waitrose make too many poor substitutions, its no good getting crap cider when you need good cider. 😀

[Tiboo]

13 minutes ago, dmr said:

And if the boat is sealed with epoxy they probably don't do anything at all.

Ha, which is the case!

Come on, this is ridiculous! Is there any way to waive this surveyor's recommendation towards the insurance company, other than doing another survey!?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Njiruk said:

Ha, which is the case!

Come on, this is ridiculous! Is there any way to waive this surveyor's recommendation towards the insurance company, other than doing another survey!?

 

No. 

 

Other than going third party. But then TPI is fine if you tend to go boating without sinking it.

[Alan de Enfield]

If you are se;;ing the boat - why are you worried about insuring it or complying with surveyors recommendations ?

 

 

Another new boater who wants to be told how to get around surveyors recommendations to get insurance.

 

Is it a 'London thing' ?

 

Maybe you should get together with this guy and see if you can get one compliant boat between you.

 

He plans on hiding all the non-compliants stuff behind covers etc so the surveyor cannot see it.

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[dmr]

Just now, Njiruk said:

Ha, which is the case!

Come on, this is ridiculous! Is there any way to waive this surveyor's recommendation towards the insurance company, other than doing another survey!?

 

Its probably only a recommendation, they have to find something wrong to justify their cost. Try pointing out to the insurers that the boat already has adequate protection from epoxy???

When I used to write technical documents I was told to always include a few deliberate mistakes for the proof reader to find, otherwise they would find things that were not really wrong.

Insurance men rule the world but surveyors are their partners in crime. 😀

[Tiboo]

Well, thanks for the feedback so far, that's helpful!

Thanks @Tracy D'arth sounds like I won't go for that strapping technique then! Maybe just hanging 1kg ones.

@Alan de Enfield I'm only trying to get around recommendations of surveyors that don't seem to make sense.

@dmr I tried pointing that out to them exactly like that actually, no success, not even to delay the requirement for 1 year :~/. And yep, I'm familiar with the deliberate mistakes rule, I write papers too :~). Lol!! "Insurance men rule the world but surveyors are their partners in crime."

 

By the way, any idea if insurance companies would require these works to be done by a marina, or is it ok if I get a detailed invoice of a boating engineer/handyman?

[dmr]

5 minutes ago, Njiruk said:

Well, thanks for the feedback so far, that's helpful!

Thanks @Tracy D'arth sounds like I won't go for that strapping technique then! Maybe just hanging 1kg ones.

@Alan de Enfield I'm only trying to get around recommendations of surveyors that don't seem to make sense.

@dmr I tried pointing that out to them exactly like that actually, no success, not even to delay the requirement for 1 year :~/. And yep, I'm familiar with the deliberate mistakes rule, I write papers too :~). Lol!! "Insurance men rule the world but surveyors are their partners in crime."

 

By the way, any idea if insurance companies would require these works to be done by a marina, or is it ok if I get a detailed invoice of a boating engineer/handyman?

 

I would expect that an official invoice from anybody would do, in reality a lot of itinerant boat fixers and small boatyards have much more experience and skill than many marinas. Taking a couple of photos of the work might be a good idea. Like solicitors, insurers are mostly only interested in bits of paper, but if you do make a claim they might try to wriggly out of paying so just satisfy yourself that you can put up a good argument.

[magnetman]

I find the maker name on the anodes somewhat off-putting. 

 

 

I'm unsure as to whether there is a joke going on here but one point to note is that it is very important to make sure that these devices are correctly attached (welded or bolted very well) to the hull and positioned in such a way as to not invite collision with lock infrastructure. 

 

Despite them being made of non ferrous material I have had anodes out on the magnet which proves that they do get wiped off sometimes.

 

 

 

[Janz]

52 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you are se;;ing the boat - why are you worried about insuring it or complying with surveyors recommendations ?

 

 

Another new boater who wants to be told how to get around surveyors recommendations to get insurance.

 

Is it a 'London thing' ?

 

Maybe you should get together with this guy and see if you can get one compliant boat between you.

 

He plans on hiding all the non-compliants stuff behind covers etc so the surveyor cannot see it.

 

Oh I see. Like that is it, Alan?

If you're going to use me to illustrate your pompous remarks, the very least you could do is not mislead others by misrepresenting what I said. I stated that I plan to fit an automotive fusebox - a sealed unit, with factory connections & a waterproof cover to keep out the elements. You didn't like that, did you. It went against your 'do not solder your connections... everything must be crimped as per regulations', propaganda & then you got rubbished by Tony, when he said 'That is simply untrue Alan. It is only true if the solder wicks down the cable beyond the insulation crimp.' You didn't like that either, did you? So because you got butthurt, you thought you'd have a pop at the next newbie & me specifically & London boaters in general. Well I ain't your whipping boy, Jim. So keep your opinions, or better still, tuck 'em where the sun don't shine.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

Insurance men rule the world but surveyors are their partners in crime. 😀

 

It's worse than that.

 

Insurance companies consider surveyors their "eyes and ears" so they take what a surveyor says as absolute gospel. Any attempt to circumvent or have put aside anything a surveyor says is regarded as an insurance fraud in the making and to be headed off with vigour. 

 

Consequently anything a surveyor advises is taken as mandatory as the insurance co has no other professional unbiased information to use to form a view. 

 

One approach the OP might find succeeds is to ask the Insurance Co (or even the surveyor) what the anode protects against, and then when he says 'corrosion', ask for a policy which excludes cover for the effects of corrosion. A standard policy probably excludes this anyway...

 

[dmr]

47 minutes ago, Janz said:

Oh I see. Like that is it, Alan?

If you're going to use me to illustrate your pompous remarks, the very least you could do is not mislead others by misrepresenting what I said. I stated that I plan to fit an automotive fusebox - a sealed unit, with factory connections & a waterproof cover to keep out the elements. You didn't like that, did you. It went against your 'do not solder your connections... everything must be crimped as per regulations', propaganda & then you got rubbished by Tony, when he said 'That is simply untrue Alan. It is only true if the solder wicks down the cable beyond the insulation crimp.' You didn't like that either, did you? So because you got butthurt, you thought you'd have a pop at the next newbie & me specifically & London boaters in general. Well I ain't your whipping boy, Jim. So keep your opinions, or better still, tuck 'em where the sun don't shine.

 

I solder everything, crimping is the work of the devil 😀 I've yet to see a well made soldered joint fail, but loads of crimped joints with strands progressively breaking loose and snapping.

[magnetman]

Thanks be to the lord that 3rd party insurance is still available on a self declaration basis just to fulfil the 95 BW act requirement. 

 

Without this small mercy the world would end and one would have to arrange alternatives post haste. 

[Janz]

5 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I solder everything, crimping is the work of the devil 😀 I've yet to see a well made soldered joint fail, but loads of crimped joints with strands progressively breaking loose and snapping.

Yay! So do I. It's just difficult on the bankside with an iron & a bit risky with a 'torch around batteries etc. I prefer to do mine at home & I'm a fan of old school bullet connectors that enable me to take entire parts away from the loom. Not de rigueur with some of the monolithic purist arch-fiends round here though... you may recieve a capitalised in bold reply stating that paragraph 86311/1X subsection 496378 of the BSS rules of engagement have been compromised & that you must prostrate yourself verily, upon the altar of flagellation by your peers! 'Whereupon thou shalt not fitte thine motorcycle headlamppe, for though it may be a most fortuitious occasion by virtue of much cheapnesse, thou wouldst invalidateth thine insurance!'

 

[dmr]

A lot of heat and move quickly, that's how to do it 😀

[Tony Brooks]

My view is similar to Allan's. The OP is selling the boat so why worry about what the surveyor says. The purchaser either buys it or not and in the present market there seem to be plenty more purchasers about. There seems something odd about the original post

 

As weld is likely to be a different metal alloy to the plates then even welding pockets into the hull for mid anodes could still cause corrosion. I think more than 70% of narrow boats are not technically protected enough because of a lack of anodes and they still get insurance.

 

I think it is a typical surveyors back covering try on. Anodes must be this years pick on topic!