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Solenoid problem...


Janz

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I think he needs the starter on the bench and  supply just the solenoid, then push the pinion back to take out the backlash and measure the gap between pinion and end bracket. I used to do it at 6V on the BMC 2.2.

 

Have we seen a photo of the engine? With all the talk of a two hole starter I am beginning to wonder if it really is a 1.5. I have seen far more  two hole starters on Perkins and only 1 on a very old 1.5.

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36 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Never seen one. Why did you try adjusting it? Are you sure it is still correctly adjusted?

 

If you short the 2 big terminals on the solenoid with a spanner does the motor run?  The pinion will not engage but it will prove the the motor is not burnt out.

That's how this whole sorry saga started, Tracy. I thought I'd ran the battery flat about ten days ago, so I hooked up an old car battery I keep as a spare & bridged the terminals. It fired up & I forgot all about it but that was the last time it started properly. I even put it all down to the storm blowing off my solar panels. One was gone & the other I had to pull up from the water but that was obviously just excuse making on my part. I had a few old British cars years ago that used to give me similar problems but I would just buy the new bits because I was working & spares were cheap back then.

In this case, something has worked loose, snapped, fused... I don't know. I don't have the specialist knowledge for boats or even cars. My knowledge of engines, starting & charging systems & electrics is basically small bore, air cooled, 2 or 4 stroke motorcycles &/or gardening tools - lawnmowers, strimmers, leaf blowers etc. So no plumbing or water cooling, no alternators, no starter motors, solenoids, solar etc etc. Anything else & I'm pretty lost. Everything on my boat has been bodged or doesn't work. That's why I despise the whole crimp connection thing. The previous owner just connected everything randomly with a box of Wilko crimps & most things don't even have an earth, just a positive connection & the earth wire just dangles next to it. The boat was an abandoned project & now I know why. I can undo most of the bodges & connected all the things that were disconnected like the water, the calorifier  the gas etc but I still don't understand the cooling system, how the engine & connections are earthed, the solar  the inverter & so on.

Still it'll please some of the people on here who think I'm trash, that I'm having problems. Like the woman who told me to get a job & the fella I'd had no interaction with at all, who asked whether I borrow my mate's tyres to get my car through an MoT. I bet they're having a right old laugh now... I would never do that to someone when they're down on their luck. Right now this is beating me & I don't like it but I'll swot up on Tony's site & learn some stuff, so it'll hopefully get a bit easier. Trouble is, there's so much to go wrong & it all shares some degree of common connections like the ignition switch or the isolator switch & even though they are both bodged I don't know enough about what they do to fix them & if they are beyond repair, I can't afford to buy new ones, so I'm just stuck. Any attempt to fix will risk doing something that might make something else not work. It's a mess...

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If your battery is an open cell one and you can see liquid in all the cells (if one or two have no liquid on show there is a good chance the battery has had it) than a simple glass battery hydrometer from a motor factors would probably cost less than £10. take a sample of acid from each cell and post your six numerical readings (not the colored bands). Then we may be able to rule the battery in or out.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think he needs the starter on the bench and  supply just the solenoid, then push the pinion back to take out the backlash and measure the gap between pinion and end bracket. I used to do it at 6V on the BMC 2.2.

 

Have we seen a photo of the engine? With all the talk of a two hole starter I am beginning to wonder if it really is a 1.5. I have seen far more  two hole starters on Perkins and only 1 on a very old 1.5.

I'm going to get the starter off again tomorrow. It's a real peach to take off despite being only two bolts. The oil filter (Bosch), has to come off first. Then once the bolts are loose the starter can be teased out from under the fuel cut off. There is only one way it will come out & it has to be rotated, pulled up slightly & then slid under the fuel cut off. The difficulty is the top bolt hole clearance. It just clears the fuel cut off but only after being lifted, rotated & slid. I will take some photos of everything once it's out of the way. I noticed some odd looking anomalies & also it could all use a good clean, so that's what I'll do. I'll also remove the alternator & give that a good clean & then I'll be able to get them tested. The engine is definitely a 1500. It's clearly marked on the block & on two plates. I might even buy some new gaskets & clean out the bilge. One for the sump pan & one for the rocker cover & get a new diesel filter & a new oil filter. I might as well go all out on it seeing as I won't be moving for a while. What can CRT say or do? I've broken down & there's nothing I can do about it. If they want to write me a snotty letter, so be it...

Whilst everything is out I can sort out the instrument panel. You'll love that. It's the last word on bodges, just a mess of missmatched wires, crimps & multi-coloured electrical tape - it's hideous & looks like several idiots have made a total pigs ear out of it over several years.

I'll find a local motor engineering place & just blow this months money on getting the alternator, solenoid & starter motor perfect if I can't get 'em working myself. Then all I'll need is a new battery & hopefully this nightmare will end. I have had enough of messing about. It wouldn't be so bad if I was back down in Brentford because at least I can get my car nearby but where I am is the middle of nowhere so I can't even get stuff to & fro. I had to use a wheelbarrow to get my batteries across the playing fields through the mud so I'm just wanting to be done with this problem.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

If your battery is an open cell one and you can see liquid in all the cells (if one or two have no liquid on show there is a good chance the battery has had it) than a simple glass battery hydrometer from a motor factors would probably cost less than £10. take a sample of acid from each cell and post your six numerical readings (not the colored bands). Then we may be able to rule the battery in or out.

I'm just going to buy a new one, Tony. I've wasted enough time & energy trying to get things done on the cheap. As soon as I get my money in my account, I'll get the best starter battery I can afford. It will either be equal to or better than the one I have now. I'm basically out of time for messing with things now. It will be hard not having any money for food for the month but I don't really have a choice.

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30 minutes ago, Janz said:

I'm just going to buy a new one, Tony. I've wasted enough time & energy trying to get things done on the cheap. As soon as I get my money in my account, I'll get the best starter battery I can afford. It will either be equal to or better than the one I have now. I'm basically out of time for messing with things now. It will be hard not having any money for food for the month but I don't really have a choice.

 

Look if money is tight do not lash out on a top of the range battery. Start batteries have a very easy life and even a cheap one should last well over 5 years, I have had over 10 years out of start battery on my boat. What position will you be in if it is not the battery?  I have suggested three ways of getting a fairly definitive test on the battery, none of which will cost that much money.

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As you travelled from where you bought the boat without a problem starting it (?) I'd be asking myself what I'd done since that might have caused the problem. I know things do break, but "what did I do?" is always a good place to start. :)

Also - what have I disturbed? Any of your cables have damage to the insulation? Corrosion could be the culprit, I remember looking at a braided gearbox earth cable on a vehicle that hadn't been long in my possession - it looked ok but when I prodded it, it literally crumbled to dust!

Edited by Slow and Steady
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31 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

As you travelled from where you bought the boat without a problem starting it (?) I'd be asking myself what I'd done since that might have caused the problem. I know things do break, but "what did I do?" is always a good place to start. :)

Also - what have I disturbed? Any of your cables have damage to the insulation? Corrosion could be the culprit, I remember looking at a braided gearbox earth cable on a vehicle that hadn't been long in my possession - it looked ok but when I prodded it, it literally crumbled to dust!

A lot has happened. My solar panel (two), blew off in the storm. I lost one & recovered the other. Since then I have been having battery charging problems. But, even before that I had to charge my batteries twice getting the boat here. I thought the alternator was faulty but it wasn't that that killed the battery. It was my water pump. When I got the boat it was dry, so I filled it with water & connected the pump but the pump didn't work so I fixed that but I had a dripping tap, so what was happening was once the tap leaked out enough water, the pump would kick in maybe once an hour for about thirty seconds.

Anyway, I went back to the boat a few nights ago & the pump was going & it wouldn't shut off, so I unplugged it. Then every time I tried to start from the key, all the lights would come on, so I tried to fix the isolator switch. I just cleaned all the corrosion off the contacts. After that, it wouldn't start from the key, so I bridged the terminals to get it started. Now it doesn't start from the key or via the solenoid. It was turning the engine very slowly & blowing the fuse behind the ignition switch. Now it just clicks & the red & green lights go dim. Both pos & neg cables get red hot. It'll probably do something else next week...

So much has happened that it's impossible to diagnose anything. Just looking at the wiring behind the inst panel, I'm surprised it hasn't burst into flames...

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Look if money is tight do not lash out on a top of the range battery. Start batteries have a very easy life and even a cheap one should last well over 5 years, I have had over 10 years out of start battery on my boat. What position will you be in if it is not the battery?  I have suggested three ways of getting a fairly definitive test on the battery, none of which will cost that much money.

Think my battery is a Yuasa, 110ah. I'm not going to get anything flash. If it isn't the battery & the battery going flat is just a symptom of something else, it has had a hard time recently being charged & discharged by me trying to either solve this problem or lights/pumps coming on randomly due to the isolator, or me leaving lights on for security before I knew my former neighbours. All this probably would have been taken up by the solar but I had to take that offline after the storm ripped all my wooden frames apart & blew them & the panels into the canal & now because I'm in a dead spot at the back of some playing fields by a school & I can't even move...

In the worst case scenario, at least buying a new battery will mean I have a spare that can maybe be revamped if it hasn't been totally trashed by whatever my electrical problem is. Unless I do something about it in the next few days, I'll be stuck for there for another month. I'm fairly used to living on the cheap but I never thought I'd have half a dozen different problems to have to sort out, so I'm just going to try & get my boat back to somewhere where I can get my car close by so I can get the rest of the work done on it because all this is just taking up too much time. The money I can lose but time isn't on my side.

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6 hours ago, Janz said:

so I'm just going to try & get my boat back to somewhere where I can get my car close by so I can get the rest of the work done on it because all this is just taking up too much time.

 

I think that is very sensible because it is now clear that you seem to have several problems and have been floundering around doing one hing and another without any testing to confirm if what you were doing had any thing to do with the fault(s).  You need to get your meter back ASAP

 

I am sorry but your descriptions are not clear enough to allow much remote diagnosis. For instance take this:-

 

7 hours ago, Janz said:

Then every time I tried to start from the key, all the lights would come on, so I tried to fix the isolator switch. I just cleaned all the corrosion off the contacts. After that, it wouldn't start from the key,

 

If you had one of those rotary switches apart you may well have bent one of the wiper contacts and nothing indicates the switch was the problem. When you turn the ignition on the "lights" should all come on but it depends upon what you mean by "the lights". Oil pressure and charge warning lamps should light up and is normal and maybe the instrument illuminating lamps if fitted. However if you are saying your interior lamps came on then that is clearly not normal, but to me that does not suggest the rotary switch is faulty, It makes me think you might, for some reason, have a split charge relay that connected both battery banks and powered the domestic lights that you had left turned on when you left the boat. Now add the pump which, I assume is the domestic water pump, to that. If the rotary switch was left turned off there is no way the pump should have got any electricity so it could not run. The fact it did suggests you left both it and the master switch it turned on. It sounds as if the pump and anything else left on flattened the domestic battery to the point the pump could not run fast enough to reach cut out pressure so stayed running. If there is a split charge relay that would have connected both battery banks so the engine battery fed the domestics bypassing the rotary switch. However there are different ways of wiring and using rotary switches so how it is wired needs working out.

 

Note, the above is informed conjecture based on very little hard facts so could well be totally wrong but it fits the facts you have told us.

 

I am not sure any of us can be much help unless a knowledgeable kind member is close enough to look at what you actually have and how you are using it and report back.  I think you need to look at each circuit in turn and work out what each part you come to does. Do not try to work out the whole thing as one massive system. My notes will hopefully guide you.  You can ignore the domestic stuff for now and concentrate on the engine circuits fir now. Find out where the main alternator charging lead runs to and then how the charge gets to both battery banks and so on. Do not get side tracked by dodgy looking connections and wirirng until you know how all the circuits work and have ideally drawn a diagram of each. Those notes should guide you.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that is very sensible because it is now clear that you seem to have several problems and have been floundering around doing one hing and another without any testing to confirm if what you were doing had any thing to do with the fault(s).  You need to get your meter back ASAP

 

I am sorry but your descriptions are not clear enough to allow much remote diagnosis. For instance take this:-

 

 

If you had one of those rotary switches apart you may well have bent one of the wiper contacts and nothing indicates the switch was the problem. When you turn the ignition on the "lights" should all come on but it depends upon what you mean by "the lights". Oil pressure and charge warning lamps should light up and is normal and maybe the instrument illuminating lamps if fitted. However if you are saying your interior lamps came on then that is clearly not normal, but to me that does not suggest the rotary switch is faulty, It makes me think you might, for some reason, have a split charge relay that connected both battery banks and powered the domestic lights that you had left turned on when you left the boat. Now add the pump which, I assume is the domestic water pump, to that. If the rotary switch was left turned off there is no way the pump should have got any electricity so it could not run. The fact it did suggests you left both it and the master switch it turned on. It sounds as if the pump and anything else left on flattened the domestic battery to the point the pump could not run fast enough to reach cut out pressure so stayed running. If there is a split charge relay that would have connected both battery banks so the engine battery fed the domestics bypassing the rotary switch. However there are different ways of wiring and using rotary switches so how it is wired needs working out.

 

Note, the above is informed conjecture based on very little hard facts so could well be totally wrong but it fits the facts you have told us.

 

I am not sure any of us can be much help unless a knowledgeable kind member is close enough to look at what you actually have and how you are using it and report back.  I think you need to look at each circuit in turn and work out what each part you come to does. Do not try to work out the whole thing as one massive system. My notes will hopefully guide you.  You can ignore the domestic stuff for now and concentrate on the engine circuits fir now. Find out where the main alternator charging lead runs to and then how the charge gets to both battery banks and so on. Do not get side tracked by dodgy looking connections and wirirng until you know how all the circuits work and have ideally drawn a diagram of each. Those notes should guide you.

 

 

 

 

Patience of a saint again.

 

Its basically a flat battery. All points that way.

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Yes,first step is to charge the battery and see if it holds charge,and then test the discharge voltage drop to see if its sulfated.............I used to get people ask to have new batteries fitted just because the old ones had gone flat .....Id use them and often get a couple of years out of them ,at least.............if a battery is frequently left low charge or flat ,then  it does dereriorate ..............but modern batteries are a lot better than they used to be..............Yuasa is a good brand ,too ,I d definitely give the battery every chance to charge fully............also many cheap batteries are all empty space ...and dont last either.

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28 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Patience of a saint again.

 

Its basically a flat battery. All points that way.

 

I agree that is most likely and quiet possibly some shorting cells, but I don't think we can be 100% sure until we get the cranking voltage. If he has a rotary 1,2,both, off switch then setting it to start battery should not have illuminated anything other than the warning lights when he turned the ignition on but until he clarifies what lights lights came on they could have been the domestic lights and the only way I can see that happening is if a split charge relay is involved OR he or another has managed to link the instrument/w/lamp feed to the domestic battery and if so that is not a very common way of using the rotary switch plus split charge relay. My preferred solution to that and his charging woes would be to get rid of the rotary switch fit two master switches, feed the alternator to the domestic bank and fit a VSR, but he has no money for that and I have doubts about his competence to do the job. Unfortunately it seems he may have bought a pile of junk and has blundered abut trying to fix random things without properly understanding what is going on so it really needs knowledgeable eyes on the ground plus at least a DVM.

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39 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Patience of a saint again.

 

Its basically a flat battery. All points that way.

 

I agree on both counts.

 

And the plan to buy a new battery because the old one is flat is just plain bonkers, especially given the apparent lack of money.

 

It will fix the problem for a week then the new one will go flat too. Back to square one. I learned this lesson aged 17 with my first car... as did most of us i suspect! 

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3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that is very sensible because it is now clear that you seem to have several problems and have been floundering around doing one hing and another without any testing to confirm if what you were doing had any thing to do with the fault(s).  You need to get your meter back ASAP

 

I am sorry but your descriptions are not clear enough to allow much remote diagnosis. For instance take this:-

 

 

If you had one of those rotary switches apart you may well have bent one of the wiper contacts and nothing indicates the switch was the problem. When you turn the ignition on the "lights" should all come on but it depends upon what you mean by "the lights". Oil pressure and charge warning lamps should light up and is normal and maybe the instrument illuminating lamps if fitted. However if you are saying your interior lamps came on then that is clearly not normal, but to me that does not suggest the rotary switch is faulty, It makes me think you might, for some reason, have a split charge relay that connected both battery banks and powered the domestic lights that you had left turned on when you left the boat. Now add the pump which, I assume is the domestic water pump, to that. If the rotary switch was left turned off there is no way the pump should have got any electricity so it could not run. The fact it did suggests you left both it and the master switch it turned on. It sounds as if the pump and anything else left on flattened the domestic battery to the point the pump could not run fast enough to reach cut out pressure so stayed running. If there is a split charge relay that would have connected both battery banks so the engine battery fed the domestics bypassing the rotary switch. However there are different ways of wiring and using rotary switches so how it is wired needs working out.

 

Note, the above is informed conjecture based on very little hard facts so could well be totally wrong but it fits the facts you have told us.

 

I am not sure any of us can be much help unless a knowledgeable kind member is close enough to look at what you actually have and how you are using it and report back.  I think you need to look at each circuit in turn and work out what each part you come to does. Do not try to work out the whole thing as one massive system. My notes will hopefully guide you.  You can ignore the domestic stuff for now and concentrate on the engine circuits fir now. Find out where the main alternator charging lead runs to and then how the charge gets to both battery banks and so on. Do not get side tracked by dodgy looking connections and wirirng until you know how all the circuits work and have ideally drawn a diagram of each. Those notes should guide you.

 

 

 

 

Thank you. You did your best for me & I really appreciate your time. You're right in that I have multiple issues that all share common parts - the battery(s), the isolator switch, the ignition switch, earth. The problems are not confined to the engine, or even the engine bay but occurring in the cabin - the pump, the USB ports, the interior lights.

Something is very wrong with the earthing I think. My mate did tell me this. It's the only thing that every other thing shares without conditions. For example, in every position of the rotary isolator except all circuits off, turning the ignition key will eventually cause all the interior LED lights to come on & the USB charge points to cut out but this doesn't happen all the time. It's intermittent. The only way I can see this happening is if the earth of the LEDs is being somehow energised by the ignition switch. The problem may lie in the fuse box. I have no idea. It must be happening somewhere where the common parts converge in close proximity, such as behind the inst panel. The rotary isolator switch is different in that it has three pins rather than two. I have just been looking at replacements. I think the engine is also not going to earth because nothing seems to work as it should - the alternator wasn't charging the battery, the solenoid will fire but it's not powering the starter, the glow plugs took at least a minute to get hot & they aren't the only things getting hot. Everything connected to the rotary isolator switch gets hot & all earth wires on all batteries. This is why I don't think it's the battery(s). They seem to take & deliver a charge ok. I can't be more specific but I charge the starter battery & it works. Even adding a jumper battery won't turn the starter/engine. It was a couple of days ago but now, nothing.

 

The only thing I can think of doing is totally isolating the starter battery, bypassing the ignition switch, earthing the engine to its cradle, seeing if anything electrical still works on the engine & replacing that which doesn't.

But look, I do really appreciate you racking your brain over this. I know it is a real ball ache. You're a patient, logical man & you have a good heart.

Right now I just want to get drunk & forget about this head pressure for a day or so. I have all sorts of problems outside of the boat world - legal problems,  housing problems, cashflow problems... I'm actually surprised I'm not a gibbering wreck. The boat was my plan of escaping those problems but it hasn't worked & it's now become another problem which is taking way too much of my attention & yours.

I'll leave you guys alone for a bit & in a few days when I've read through your notes & isolated the engine department from the rest, I'll let you know my progress if any...👍

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I don't want to extend your problems but I don't think this is anything to do with an "earth" (negative) problem except just possibly some undersized main wiring, but that would only affect the starting.

 

Be aware that the way those rotary switches are normally wired allows either bank to feed both the engine and domestic circuits depending upon what position the switch is in, so in theory  everything on the boat should work unless the switch is set to off

 

Remember if the starter motor can't reach its designed speed it will try to draw massive amounts of current so cables may well get hot.

 

24 minutes ago, Janz said:

The only way I can see this happening is if the earth of the LEDs is being somehow energised by the ignition switch.

 

Unless there were two faults that would either blow a fuse/trip a breaker or cause a fire.

 

This may be worth a try to allow you to move your boat and help prove the battery. Read it through several times so you understand it.

 

Take photos of everything and if necessary label the cables of what you are going to alter so you can put it back as it was.

 

On the rotary switch turn it to off and  disconnect the cable from the start battery and all all the cables on the terminal that is not connected to the domestic battery. Take the two heavy cables and put them both on one switch terminal and tighten. leave the switch OFF.

 

That should have disconnected all the domestic circuits unless they are fed from the starter terminal of a junction box on the heavy cable between switch and starter.

 

Disconnect the feed onto the glow plugs.

 

Disconnect all the cables fitted on the starter motor's solenoid main terminal and tape all but the thick one out of the way. Reconnect just the thick one.

 

You now should have, in effect, just one heavy cable between battery positive and the starter but no way of energizing the glow plugs.

 

Fit a length of cable to that starter stud terminal but take great care of the other end of the cable because the cable will burn if it touches any metal.

 

You will use this to energize the glow plugs, but not yet.

 

Look at the end of the starter solenoid and you should see a thinnish cable on its own single terminal, usually a 6mm blade on a 1.5. Disconnect this.

 

That small terminal is the one that energizes the solenoid. You are going to use an old screwdriver to do the energizing, but not yet.

 

Get an old screwdriver with at decent thickness of blade and offer it up to the main terminal on the starter solenoid so you can work out how to very firmly bridge the gap between the main terminal and the small one. If you are timid you will get lots of sparks and chunks out of the blade when you do bridge the two terminals. ON NO ACCOUNT LET ANY METAL OF THE SCREWDRIVER TOUCH ANY METAL.

 

You are now almost ready to try to start it.

 

Connect that piece of cable you fitted earlier to one glow plug terminal, that will feed the others.

 

Make a slow count to 20 and bridge the two terminals. The engine should spin and fire up. You may need two or three goes but don't let the starter run for more than about 20 seconds at a time. AS soon a sit starts remove the screwdriver.

 

If it starts well done and immediately disconnect the cable you fitted to the glow plug and insulate its end so it can't short out but is ready for next time.

 

Your diesel does not need any electricity to run so it will run all day but be aware that there should be no charging taking place. You can then at least move the boat to a more convenient mooring.

 

We can worry about the charging later.

 

If it does not turn over fast enough to start then the battery is highly suspect.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't want to extend your problems but I don't think this is anything to do with an "earth" (negative) problem except just possibly some undersized main wiring, but that would only affect the starting.

 

Be aware that the way those rotary switches are normally wired allows either bank to feed both the engine and domestic circuits depending upon what position the switch is in, so in theory  everything on the boat should work unless the switch is set to off

 

Remember if the starter motor can't reach its designed speed it will try to draw massive amounts of current so cables may well get hot.

 

 

Unless there were two faults that would either blow a fuse/trip a breaker or cause a fire.

 

This may be worth a try to allow you to move your boat and help prove the battery. Read it through several times so you understand it.

 

Take photos of everything and if necessary label the cables of what you are going to alter so you can put it back as it was.

 

On the rotary switch turn it to off and  disconnect the cable from the start battery and all all the cables on the terminal that is not connected to the domestic battery. Take the two heavy cables and put them both on one switch terminal and tighten. leave the switch OFF.

 

That should have disconnected all the domestic circuits unless they are fed from the starter terminal of a junction box on the heavy cable between switch and starter.

 

Disconnect the feed onto the glow plugs.

 

Disconnect all the cables fitted on the starter motor's solenoid main terminal and tape all but the thick one out of the way. Reconnect just the thick one.

 

You now should have, in effect, just one heavy cable between battery positive and the starter but no way of energizing the glow plugs.

 

Fit a length of cable to that starter stud terminal but take great care of the other end of the cable because the cable will burn if it touches any metal.

 

You will use this to energize the glow plugs, but not yet.

 

Look at the end of the starter solenoid and you should see a thinnish cable on its own single terminal, usually a 6mm blade on a 1.5. Disconnect this.

 

That small terminal is the one that energizes the solenoid. You are going to use an old screwdriver to do the energizing, but not yet.

 

Get an old screwdriver with at decent thickness of blade and offer it up to the main terminal on the starter solenoid so you can work out how to very firmly bridge the gap between the main terminal and the small one. If you are timid you will get lots of sparks and chunks out of the blade when you do bridge the two terminals. ON NO ACCOUNT LET ANY METAL OF THE SCREWDRIVER TOUCH ANY METAL.

 

You are now almost ready to try to start it.

 

Connect that piece of cable you fitted earlier to one glow plug terminal, that will feed the others.

 

Make a slow count to 20 and bridge the two terminals. The engine should spin and fire up. You may need two or three goes but don't let the starter run for more than about 20 seconds at a time. AS soon a sit starts remove the screwdriver.

 

If it starts well done and immediately disconnect the cable you fitted to the glow plug and insulate its end so it can't short out but is ready for next time.

 

Your diesel does not need any electricity to run so it will run all day but be aware that there should be no charging taking place. You can then at least move the boat to a more convenient mooring.

 

We can worry about the charging later.

 

If it does not turn over fast enough to start then the battery is highly suspect.

 

 

 

 

Tony should be canonised.

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41 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Tony should be canonised.

 

Not really, we should all try to help each other. I feel very sorry for people who get themselves into trouble because of what they do not know so try to help. If the OP was much nearer my home I would happily pop along to see what I could do to help but no way am I getting involved with London traffic, parking problems, and charging zones. However I am still with you in thinking the main problem is probably batteries, but even if that gets sorted there is still the alleged charging problem but again that could still be shorting cells with nothing wrong with the charging. It all keeps my brain active and helps me learn new things. In that respect I think I have got more out of the forum than I have put into it.

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9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Not really, we should all try to help each other. I feel very sorry for people who get themselves into trouble because of what they do not know so try to help. If the OP was much nearer my home I would happily pop along to see what I could do to help but no way am I getting involved with London traffic, parking problems, and charging zones. However I am still with you in thinking the main problem is probably batteries, but even if that gets sorted there is still the alleged charging problem but again that could still be shorting cells with nothing wrong with the charging. It all keeps my brain active and helps me learn new things. In that respect I think I have got more out of the forum than I have put into it.

I've been wondering what his chances are of hitching a tow to Brentford. He's commented several times that things would be  easier on his permanent mooring. 

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3 minutes ago, Slim said:

I've been wondering what his chances are of hitching a tow to Brentford. He's commented several times that things would be  easier on his permanent mooring. 

 

I suspect not that many boats go that way, he might get a tow to Bulls Bridge and then manually haul it to Brentford.

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28 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I suspect not that many boats go that way, he might get a tow to Bulls Bridge and then manually haul it to Brentford.

As I understand it he's south of the Hanwall flight thus only a couple of miles or so from Brentford. It's an option I would consider. (easy to say from the comfort of my armchair). 

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Don't know why but I got the impression that he might have been moored up on the large off side park near  a golf club on the Paddington arm. (Alperton?)

 

 

I wonder if he knows how to use the bow and stern line to manually pull the boat (agitation and moored boats willing).

 

If not here is the procedure:

 

Take the stern line along the bank well forward until it is about in line with the front T stud. Take the bow line straight to the bank.

 

Pick up the lines and pull on the stern line, basically just lean on the rope.

 

The front of the boat will normally sheer out to wards the far bank so control this by pulling on the bow line.

 

Within a few yards of movement you will get the balance between the lines so can tow the boat while keeping it in the channel.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Thanks for replies. Got my brother coming tomoz to see what he can do. We're going to charge the battery & try what you said. I went over there earlier to prepare. He's gonna bring a dvm. The wiring from the ignition switch is a real mess. From what I can see, the glow plug wire has snapped at the crimp terminal & the pos has fused to the neg where the switch was loose. Got that cleaned up. Got instrument panel lights working but need some blade fuses. Got the starter to turn the engine, very slowly but it's turning. Couldn't do anymore 'cos I have noĺ

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...lighting, just phone torch.

If we can't get it running we'll pull it back on the ropes. Need bed 'cos been drinking. If we can get it to B'ford the Bulgarian will have a spare alternator. Thanks for the reps & how to bypasd the isolator & ig switch 👍

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On 05/03/2022 at 12:55, Tony Brooks said:

I don't want to extend your problems but I don't think this is anything to do with an "earth" (negative) problem except just possibly some undersized main wiring, but that would only affect the starting.

 

Be aware that the way those rotary switches are normally wired allows either bank to feed both the engine and domestic circuits depending upon what position the switch is in, so in theory  everything on the boat should work unless the switch is set to off

 

Remember if the starter motor can't reach its designed speed it will try to draw massive amounts of current so cables may well get hot.

 

 

Unless there were two faults that would either blow a fuse/trip a breaker or cause a fire.

 

This may be worth a try to allow you to move your boat and help prove the battery. Read it through several times so you understand it.

 

Take photos of everything and if necessary label the cables of what you are going to alter so you can put it back as it was.

 

On the rotary switch turn it to off and  disconnect the cable from the start battery and all all the cables on the terminal that is not connected to the domestic battery. Take the two heavy cables and put them both on one switch terminal and tighten. leave the switch OFF.

 

That should have disconnected all the domestic circuits unless they are fed from the starter terminal of a junction box on the heavy cable between switch and starter.

 

Disconnect the feed onto the glow plugs.

 

Disconnect all the cables fitted on the starter motor's solenoid main terminal and tape all but the thick one out of the way. Reconnect just the thick one.

 

You now should have, in effect, just one heavy cable between battery positive and the starter but no way of energizing the glow plugs.

 

Fit a length of cable to that starter stud terminal but take great care of the other end of the cable because the cable will burn if it touches any metal.

 

You will use this to energize the glow plugs, but not yet.

 

Look at the end of the starter solenoid and you should see a thinnish cable on its own single terminal, usually a 6mm blade on a 1.5. Disconnect this.

 

That small terminal is the one that energizes the solenoid. You are going to use an old screwdriver to do the energizing, but not yet.

 

Get an old screwdriver with at decent thickness of blade and offer it up to the main terminal on the starter solenoid so you can work out how to very firmly bridge the gap between the main terminal and the small one. If you are timid you will get lots of sparks and chunks out of the blade when you do bridge the two terminals. ON NO ACCOUNT LET ANY METAL OF THE SCREWDRIVER TOUCH ANY METAL.

 

You are now almost ready to try to start it.

 

Connect that piece of cable you fitted earlier to one glow plug terminal, that will feed the others.

 

Make a slow count to 20 and bridge the two terminals. The engine should spin and fire up. You may need two or three goes but don't let the starter run for more than about 20 seconds at a time. AS soon a sit starts remove the screwdriver.

 

If it starts well done and immediately disconnect the cable you fitted to the glow plug and insulate its end so it can't short out but is ready for next time.

 

Your diesel does not need any electricity to run so it will run all day but be aware that there should be no charging taking place. You can then at least move the boat to a more convenient mooring.

 

We can worry about the charging later.

 

If it does not turn over fast enough to start then the battery is highly suspect.

 

 

 

 

Yes..! Success, Mr Brooks!

That worked, however it only worked with a replacement starter motor. So I'm assuming the motor is fried. The only motor I could get has been borrowed but at least I can move. It still does really strange stuff if I try it from the ignition &/or with the isolator wired in though but I can live with I'll test my motor & get back to you tomoz. Thanks for your help..!

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