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Fire extinguishers...


Janz

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I spoke to my boatie neighbour at length yesterday about all things boating & her experiences living aboard, legal stuff & also about the fire that nearly forced her to give up life on the water. That bit really got me thinking. I have loaded up my entire collection of powder fire extinguishers in the boot of my car. The very last thing anyone wants on a boat is fire. I have a stove but it isn't set up yet because I don't know where I'm going to place it until I get some furniture in there. I use a small gas burner for soup, tea & coffee & a gas heater & I have two small petrol generators. I'm going to put two each side of the stern deck, two in the cabin & two at the bow. I don't know if having them will swing the BSS in June but I'm not doing it for them, I'm doing it for me. I have also nabbed two battery smoke alarms & a carbon monoxide detector from my house too. As a newbie boater I think that aside from a lifejacket which I still don't have, it's the next best thing I can do for my on board personal safety...👍

 

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6 minutes ago, Janz said:

I spoke to my boatie neighbour at length yesterday about all things boating & her experiences living aboard, legal stuff & also about the fire that nearly forced her to give up life on the water. That bit really got me thinking. I have loaded up my entire collection of powder fire extinguishers in the boot of my car. The very last thing anyone wants on a boat is fire. I have a stove but it isn't set up yet because I don't know where I'm going to place it until I get some furniture in there. I use a small gas burner for soup, tea & coffee & a gas heater & I have two small petrol generators. I'm going to put two each side of the stern deck, two in the cabin & two at the bow. I don't know if having them will swing the BSS in June but I'm not doing it for them, I'm doing it for me. I have also nabbed two battery smoke alarms & a carbon monoxide detector from my house too. As a newbie boater I think that aside from a lifejacket which I still don't have, it's the next best thing I can do for my on board personal safety...👍

 

In the event of a fire on a boat, leave the extinguishers where they are and GET OUT.

 

I have an extra, more than specified, CO2 extinguisher which I would use as an exit tool in my run to the nearest door/window for egress. 

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6 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

In the event of a fire on a boat, leave the extinguishers where they are and GET OUT.

 

I have an extra, more than specified, CO2 extinguisher which I would use as an exit tool in my run to the nearest door/window for egress. 

^^^ This ^^^

 

The extinguishers should be regarded as an aid to a safe and controlled exit from the boat. Amateur firefighting can too often end in serious injury or fatality.

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1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

In the event of a fire on a boat, leave the extinguishers where they are and GET OUT.

 

I have an extra, more than specified, CO2 extinguisher which I would use as an exit tool in my run to the nearest door/window for egress. 

Aye, fair point. But if it kicks off when you're driving it might mean swimming for it.

I'm just worried about wiring faults for the most part 'cos my boat needs all that stuff tidying up both in the cabin & the engine bay. Plus, I'm going to be using some power tools with a genny. My neighb had an arson attack when she was away from the boat, so extinguishers wouldn't help with that either but what else can you do? I only sleep on my boat when I'm on the move but it's piece of mind I'm after & I'd kick myself all over town if I couldn't put out a small fire 'cos I didn't have the kit...

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Looooool, I mean when I'm out on a trip like when I bought it & had to drive it back home... 😂

I was nearly asleep standing up by the time I parked it after the stretch from Uxbridge to Brentford though. That Hanwell flight doesn't take prisoners when you're on your own.

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BSS Requirements for Fire extinguishers, fire blanket and CO alarms etc are from page 46 in the BSS checklist that the examiner will use.

 

They are also strict on petrol and generator storage etc, which is also in the checklist.

 

It is not the easiest document to read, so if you get confused (I did the first time I read it), just ask on here and someone will answer.

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/299273/bss-examination-checking-procedures-core-private-boat-public-interim-complete-compress.pdf

 

The BSS is generally NOT negotiable, so as an example, even if you have brand new, very expensive fire extinguishers, if they don’t have the specified marking, they will fail.

Edited by Chewbacka
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10 minutes ago, Janz said:

Aye, fair point. But if it kicks off when you're driving it might mean swimming for it.

I'm just worried about wiring faults for the most part 'cos my boat needs all that stuff tidying up both in the cabin & the engine bay. Plus, I'm going to be using some power tools with a genny. My neighb had an arson attack when she was away from the boat, so extinguishers wouldn't help with that either but what else can you do? I only sleep on my boat when I'm on the move but it's piece of mind I'm after & I'd kick myself all over town if I couldn't put out a small fire 'cos I didn't have the kit...

 

Just to point put that IF - note big if - the wirirng is properly sized and fused with nice neat and secured battery cables the chances of an electrical fire is very low. As a temporary measure why not roughly calculated the maximum  current you are likely to need before sorting the electrics out and fit  a fuse lightly  larger in the main feed to the domestics. Close to the batteries but not in any battery box. In fact there should be one there already but I bet the majority of older boats were never fitted with one. I used a megafuse.

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Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

Just to point put that IF - note big if - the wirirng is properly sized and fused with nice neat and secured battery cables the chances of an electrical fire is very low. As a temporary measure why not roughly calculated the maximum  current you are likely to need before sorting the electrics out and fit  a fuse lightly  larger in the main feed to the domestics. Close to the batteries but not in any battery box. In fact there should be one there already but I bet the majority of older boats were never fitted with one. I used a megafuse.

I did check that & there are two fuses for both leisure batteries. However, all the connections to the main fuse box have been crimped on & I don't like that. I plan to get all that sorted with solder & shrink & some decent bullet connectors for anything that may need to be moved or replaced like I'm used to working on motorcycle looms.

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1 minute ago, Janz said:

I did check that & there are two fuses for both leisure batteries. However, all the connections to the main fuse box have been crimped on & I don't like that. I plan to get all that sorted with solder & shrink & some decent bullet connectors for anything that may need to be moved or replaced like I'm used to working on motorcycle looms.

 

The two fuse things sounds very suspect. Batteries are usually paralleled unless you are running 24 volt so you only need one fuse in the main domestic feed.

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8 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

BSS Requirements for Fire extinguishers, fire blanket and CO alarms etc are from page 46 in the BSS checklist that the examiner will use.

 

They are also strict on petrol and generator storage etc, which is also in the checklist.

 

It is not the easiest document to read, so if you get confused (I did the first time I read it), just ask on here and someone will answer.

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/299273/bss-examination-checking-procedures-core-private-boat-public-interim-complete-compress.pdf

 

The BSS is generally NOT negotiable, so as an example, even if you have brand new, very expensive fire extinguishers, if they don’t have the specified marking, they will fail.

Cool, I'm not looking forward to the BSS, so thanks for posting this up. Hopefully by June all the work will be done but even if it isn't I'll get everything off the tub that might be suspect before the examiner comes on board, including my gas fridge that I was already warned may be a no no. I don't want to fail. I want everything above board. 👍

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19 minutes ago, Janz said:

Looooool, I mean when I'm out on a trip like when I bought it & had to drive it back home... 😂

I was nearly asleep standing up by the time I parked it after the stretch from Uxbridge to Brentford though. That Hanwell flight doesn't take prisoners when you're on your own.

Just a small point, and not trying to be picky, apologies and welcome, but generally you steer or navigate and then moor a boat up, drive and parking is a pastime for other vehicles. Some refer to boats as she though that seems to be a dying use of language these days? 

Obviously take care with the petrol generators.  Thankfully fires are pretty rare. You may need more than one CO meter, theres plenty on here about them and CO with stoves. 

Enjoy your boating

PS Gas fridges are usually OK, the great advantage being no battery use as they do drain power. Your boat must have passed BSS with that installed before? 

Edited by Stroudwater1
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1 minute ago, Janz said:

Cool, I'm not looking forward to the BSS, so thanks for posting this up. Hopefully by June all the work will be done but even if it isn't I'll get everything off the tub that might be suspect before the examiner comes on board, including my gas fridge that I was already warned may be a no no. I don't want to fail. I want everything above board. 👍

Not sure these two statements sit well together 🙂 . The BSS is as much to protect other boats as well as the one being examined and  removing things which might be a fail and then replacing them after the examiner has gone is still leaving the risks. Ok you will have your bit of paper but your boat and others might still be at risk. 

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5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The two fuse things sounds very suspect. Batteries are usually paralleled unless you are running 24 volt so you only need one fuse in the main domestic feed.

I'll head down there in a bit, Tony. I'll take some photos, so please let me know what yo think. They are blade style fuses in their own holders. I'm going to fetch both batteries back home anyway & charge them with my battery charger. I had to disconnect my solar panels during the storms last week & the batteries are needing some love.

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14 minutes ago, Janz said:

I did check that & there are two fuses for both leisure batteries. However, all the connections to the main fuse box have been crimped on & I don't like that. I plan to get all that sorted with solder & shrink & some decent bullet connectors for anything that may need to be moved or replaced like I'm used to working on motorcycle looms.

Properly done crimp connections are superior to soldered connections on a boat. Solder can suffer from fatigue cracking from the sort of vibration that happens on a boat with the engine running. In addition, the residue from flux can corrode the cable strands under the insulation, out of sight. There are lots of different fluxes around. Generally, the more effective they are as a flux, the worse they are for subsequent corrosion. Use correctly sized crimp connectors for the wire and a proper crimp tool. Borrow, beg, buy, steal the crimp tool, rather than try and wing it with something else, or cheap and nasty.

Soldered battery connections for the battery cables are allowed by the BSS though, as well as crimped. However, they are difficult to make reliably without the right equipment, due to their size and weight. Heating them up hot enough to get good solder wetting, without melting off all the insulation is tricky. What isn't allowed here are screw connections. See section 3.4.1 of the BSS requirements (private boats) in the link that was given.

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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3 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Just a small point, and not trying to be picky, apologies and welcome, but generally you steer or navigate and then moor a boat up, drive and parking is a pastime for other vehicles. Some refer to boats as she though that seems to be a dying use of language these days? 

Obviously take care with the petrol generators.  Thankfully fires are pretty rare. You may need more than one CO meter, theres plenty on here about them and CO with stoves. 

Enjoy your boating

PS Gas fridges are usually OK, the great advantage being no battery use as they do drain power. Your boat must have passed BSS with that installed before? 

Yeah, sorry I'm a bit new to this stuff & I don't use the parlance unless I get reminded. My pal is ex RN & he calls the toilet 'the head' even in his house. The fridge was given to me. It works but isn't plumbed in so I will just move it before the BSS.

Thanks...👍

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16 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

It's the correct way to do it for boats.

 

12 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Properly done crimp connections are superior to soldered connections on a boat. Solder can suffer from fatigue cracking from the sort of vibration that happens on a boat with the engine running. In addition, the residue from flux can corrode the cable strands under the insulation, out of sight. There are lots of different fluxes around. Generally, the more effective they are as a flux, the worse they are for subsequent corrosion. Use correctly sized crimp connectors for the wire and a proper crimp tool. Borrow, beg, buy, steal the crimp tool, rather than try and wing it with something else, or cheap and nasty.

Soldered battery connections for the battery cables are allowed by the BSS though, as well as crimped. However, they are difficult to make reliably without the right equipment, due to their size and weight. Heating them up hot enough to get good solder wetting, without melting off all the insulation is tricky. What isn't allowed here are screw connections. See section 3.4.1 of the BSS requirements (private boats) in the link that was given.

Jen

 

Don't you just hate it when you are typing a detailed reply to a point and some smartarse posts a much shorter version of your main point a few minutes before you hit submit? ;)

 

 

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

 

Don't you just hate it when you are typing a detailed reply to a point and some smartarse posts a much shorter version of your main point a few minutes before you hit submit? ;)

 

 

"Jenny, no body likes a smartarse".

As frequently said to me by a good friend, who is now sadly no longer with us.

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9 minutes ago, haggis said:

Not sure these two statements sit well together 🙂 . The BSS is as much to protect other boats as well as the one being examined and  removing things which might be a fail and then replacing them after the examiner has gone is still leaving the risks. Ok you will have your bit of paper but your boat and others might still be at risk. 

Well yeah but this is very much work in progress. I don't need the gennys for everyday running & I don't need a fridge either. The way I see it, I only have four months to get everything done before the current BSS runs out. I'm not gonna rush to shove in a bunch of appliances before the BSS is due. I'm simply going to remove what doesn't need to be there - tools & equipment & the fuels & oils for them. Hopefully by then I'll have some money to buy some decent appliances, not the brown & tan 1970s fridge & a camping gaz burner & heater.

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25 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Properly done crimp connections are superior to soldered connections on a boat. Solder can suffer from fatigue cracking from the sort of vibration that happens on a boat with the engine running. In addition, the residue from flux can corrode the cable strands under the insulation, out of sight. There are lots of different fluxes around. Generally, the more effective they are as a flux, the worse they are for subsequent corrosion. Use correctly sized crimp connectors for the wire and a proper crimp tool. Borrow, beg, buy, steal the crimp tool, rather than try and wing it with something else, or cheap and nasty.

Soldered battery connections for the battery cables are allowed by the BSS though, as well as crimped. However, they are difficult to make reliably without the right equipment, due to their size and weight. Heating them up hot enough to get good solder wetting, without melting off all the insulation is tricky. What isn't allowed here are screw connections. See section 3.4.1 of the BSS requirements (private boats) in the link that was given.

 

It might be the correct way for boats but look at the state of this. A chimp could've done a better job. Plus I do all my electrics on my custom bikes & I prefer solder, shrink & properly fixed terminals. I see what you're saying about vibes but I assure you boat wiring doesn't have anywhere near the same stresses as a motorbike wiring loom. It's enclosed & dry for a start, it floats on water so doesn't deal with potholes or wheelies or mud, road salt, grime, rain, wind, 100 mph speeds & jet washing...

Upload failed on the pic... hold on.

20220122_145731.jpg

20220122_145731.jpg

20220122_145731.jpg

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30 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Properly done crimp connections are superior to soldered connections on a boat. Solder can suffer from fatigue cracking from the sort of vibration that happens on a boat with the engine running. In addition, the residue from flux can corrode the cable strands under the insulation, out of sight. There are lots of different fluxes around. Generally, the more effective they are as a flux, the worse they are for subsequent corrosion. Use correctly sized crimp connectors for the wire and a proper crimp tool. Borrow, beg, buy, steal the crimp tool, rather than try and wing it with something else, or cheap and nasty.

Soldered battery connections for the battery cables are allowed by the BSS though, as well as crimped. However, they are difficult to make reliably without the right equipment, due to their size and weight. Heating them up hot enough to get good solder wetting, without melting off all the insulation is tricky. What isn't allowed here are screw connections. See section 3.4.1 of the BSS requirements (private boats) in the link that was given.

Jen

 

and buy some top quality crimp terminals if you can find them.

 

I agree that a professional standard crimp done with a decent tool and decent terminals is probably as good as a solder one, but even then it can go wrong (see below). Also an amateur solder joint with inadequate equipment is likely to do as Jen says and wick down the wire so it becomes solid - that is  even if the solder had "whetted" the complete joint properly, but if you know what you are ding that should not happen.

 

Many years ago a terminal suppliers rep kept onto me to swap from solder to crimp terminals. I was resistant because we never seemed to have the problem Jen described and I was worried about damp wicking into the crimp causing corrosion, This rep kept on and insisted his crimp was as good as my solder joint so we got a length of cable, he crimped one end and I soldered. then we got the terminals in pliers and had a tug of war. His crimp just pulled out. He then grabbed the cable and pulled again. The conductor snapped. He never badgered me to go t crimps again.

 

On the question of bullet connectors, I learned to hate the things on old cars in the 70s. It is too bad cleaning corrosion off the bullet but trying to clean the receptacle  is another matter.

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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

buy some top quality crimp terminals if you can find them.

 

Edited that slightly Tony.  It's a crucial point, and it's worth making the extra effort to get good ones - the mixed boxes from the pound shop aren't worth even considering.

 

5 minutes ago, Janz said:

It might be the correct way for boats but look at the state of this. A chimp could've done a better job.

20220122_145731.jpg

 

 

 

Looks tidy and well crimped to me.  Might need dusting though. ;)

 

Labelling would be good too, but that isn't a bad example of boat wiring at all.  If it doesn't look like 30 snakes having an orgy it's in the top quarter of marine installations! :D

 

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