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Matthew Parris Piece (Times Newspaper)


Tam & Di

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14 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

The slight problem with that though is what are the alternative options in London in particular?

 

If they work in the capital or need to be there for other reasons and live on a boat they are primarily doing it for reasons of cost. They can't (in the main) suddenly make the jump to a flat costing half a mill and more.

 

By behaving inconsiderately they are drawing attention to themslves and that I suspect will bite them on their backsides at some point and potentially leave them homeless.

 

Its one thing to try and live 'under the radar' but if you wish to that you need to avoid peeing people off.

That's not the demographic of people living on boats in London. 

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9 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Why are people 'having' to live on boats in London  ? Because the uk economy is totally biased to the south and the greater London area in particular....  if the wealth was more fairly divided around the country than this would be less of an issue... 

People are living on boats over many parts of the country, it isn't specifically a London thing. The increase in boat dwelling is a response to the increased cost of renting or buying a flat or house. 

And the number of people living on boats is a small proportion of the total number of people who struggle to afford accommodation, so any solution to the boat-dweller 'problem' is going to have to be solved by addressing the wider issue.

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14 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Doesn't help that huge amounts of London real estate is now owned by dodgy Russian oligarchs....

And if Russian oligarchs were forced to dispose of their mostly unoccupied glitzy apartments in the City's most expensive areas, how much trickle down would there be for those at the bottom of the housing pile?

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12 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Why are people 'having' to live on boats in London  ? Because the uk economy is totally biased to the south and the greater London area in particular....  if the wealth was more fairly divided around the country than this would be less of an issue... 

 

Doesn't help that huge amounts of London real estate is now owned by dodgy Russian oligarchs....

 

Nobody has to live in London. It is a choice. Plenty of people living elsewhere, thereby demonstrate living elsewhere is not just feasible but actually quite good.

 

Same applies to living on a boat. It's a lifestyle choice that might easily become unviable once the spotlight turns onto us because of the minority who burn house coal and/or wet wood. Or just wood, even. 

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7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

People are living on boats over many parts of the country, it isn't specifically a London thing. The increase in boat dwelling is a response to the increased cost of renting or buying a flat or house. 

And the number of people living on boats is a small proportion of the total number of people who struggle to afford accommodation, so any solution to the boat-dweller 'problem' is going to have to be solved by addressing the wider issue.

It isn't a response to expensive housing..

 

People think it is but that is not what is going on in reality. 

 

Someone who can buy a £100k widebeam is not someone who is priced out of the housing market. It's far more likely to be someone who has property but rents it out and lives on the boat while it is available as a cheap option. 

 

5 years letting the flat for £20k a year ? Yes people do pay £20k a year to rent property in London, even in the less salubrious parts. 

 

Good idea but not to be confused with homelessness. 

 

As for the cheap end of the market you will find a lot of people come from other parts of the country or indeed other countries to access cheap accomodation close to work in the capital. 

 

 

Yes there are people who are close to being homeless but this is not the main topic here ;)

 

Edited by magnetman
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6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Someone who can buy a £100k widebeam is not someone who is priced out of the housing market.

While there are £100k widebeams in London, far more of the boats I have passed in the capital have been 15-50 year old narrowboats in the 40-60 foot bracket or smaller cruisers, some tidy and well presented, but many others showing their age and a neglect of regular maintenance, that suggests to me a) that the owners are probably only just making ends meet, and b) they allow their craft to decay because they are not really interested in boats for their own sake, but more as a form of cheap accommodation.

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6 hours ago, LadyG said:

Is it really worthy of a new thread? 

PS perhaps you can buy a newspaper in a shop? 

Did not see the other thread. Thanks to mods who moved it. You seem very aggresive. I'm out in fields chainsawing a huge tree up that fell over, nowhere near a shop, just read it on a news feed whilst taking a break. 

Edited by mark99
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3 hours ago, magnetman said:

People living on boats without residential planning permission are exploiting a loophole which may at any time get closed. 

 

If you live on a mooring with residential PP there will be an electric supply and it is possible, although expensive, to heat boats with electric radiators.

 

Oil or gas (expensive) can provide the extra. 

 

I'm quite interested in exploring the mains gas supply option for a residential mooring. That could be intriguing. 

 

I still prefer burning road cones and old tyres on my stove though ;)

 

And best of all damp wood because of lasts longer !

Mains gas on a boat is possible. There is a specific gas engineering standard for it iirc. Brentford had some boats near or on the High St connected. Meter on the shore, great big floppy hose connector to account for tidal range.

Edited by mark99
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8 hours ago, blackrose said:

If there isn't a viable alternative to staying warm and staying alive then I'm afraid it's not going to be as simple as "like it or lump it, reduce your emissions." 

 

They don't care if the boat is making emissions, just as long as it isn't in their vicinity.

 

Smokeless zone enforcement action is a "good" way of getting rid of the undesirables because they can claim it's driven by green policy.  

 

Having said that I do despair at those boaters who throw all their plastic waste on the stove.  That really doesn't help the rest of us who like storm blown trees and electric chainsaws ...

 

 

Edited by TheBiscuits
Stupid mobile phone
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17 hours ago, magnetman said:

People living on boats without residential planning permission are exploiting a loophole which may at any time get closed. 

 

If you live on a mooring with residential PP there will be an electric supply and it is possible, although expensive, to heat boats with electric radiators.

 

Oil or gas (expensive) can provide the extra. 

 

I'm quite interested in exploring the mains gas supply option for a residential mooring. That could be intriguing. 

 

I still prefer burning road cones and old tyres on my stove though ;)

 

And best of all damp wood because of lasts longer !

I have a residential mooring and there is no electricity points from crt 

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1 hour ago, Fat Boat said:

I have a residential mooring and there is no electricity points from crt 

That does put CRT in a slightly odd position, given that most residential craft will require at least some modicum of electricity. You can cook and heat with gas or diesel, but can't charge your phone or any of the other things like watch TV that most people nowadays regard as normal life unless you run a generator or your main engine - the very things that contribute most to pollution.

 

Tam

Edited by Tam & Di
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1 hour ago, Fat Boat said:

I have a residential mooring and there is no electricity points from crt 

That is quite an unusual arrangement - these days local authorities won't usually grant planning permission for residential moorings without electricity being available, also usually sewage disposal and fresh water. 

It's unlikely any new moorings will be created without leccy

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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You have a choice - just as you can buy a house without mains water, mains sewage, mains gas or mains electricity

I was pointing out that the statement that residential moorings come with electric as was suggested is not always true 

 

It is no problem for me not having it as I have been used to charging my batteries using my boat systems as I have for the last 20 years 

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2 hours ago, Fat Boat said:

I have a residential mooring and there is no electricity points from crt 

That's interesting. I stand corrected. I thought that an electric supply was a requirement for a mooring to be authorised for residential use. 

 

But thinking about it there are some towpath moorings at Marsworth which are apparently residential. I wonder how that works with planning permission..

 

 

Thank you for correcting my error. 

 

As for the original topic it was referring to areas in London specifically on the Regents section of the Grand Union. I wonder if there are any residential moorings in this area with no electric supply. 

 

Perhaps there are but I can't think of any..

 

Anyway my CRT residential mooring electric is 24p a unit which means a large heating bill if I wanted to use electric.

 

In the event I mostly burn shower curtains and carrier bags.  

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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24 minutes ago, magnetman said:

That's interesting. I stand corrected. I thought that an electric supply was a requirement for a mooring to be authorised for residential use. 

 

But thinking about it there are some towpath moorings at Marsworth which are apparently residential. I wonder how that works with planning permission..

 

 

 

If planning permission was granted for residential use before any specific rule about electric supply came in, then those moorings can continue on with no electric.  Also, after 10 years continuous use without challenge, any new use of land gains deemed consent which means the use can continue and no enforcement proceeds can be brought.  For that to work, the burden of proof is on the landowner to prove that the use has been continuous for ten years and there can be no attempt to deceive by hiding the use of the land from authorities.

 

So if I bought a bit of land, built a house and lived in it without challenge, the structure itself would have deemed consent after 4 years and the residential use after 10 years.  The proof of residential use would normally be council tax payments.  Surprisingly this can happen where the council tax department of a local council don't think to check with the planning department as to whether this new house has planning permission.

 

But I digress...

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Yes. My central London residential mooring has planning permission for three 18m long narrow boats however all berths have been occupied by wide beam vessels for ten years now and the berths have been auctioned as 22mx4.2 metres per berth since the start of the BW/CRT mooring auction process. 

 

I suppose if someone had complained earlier it could have got technical as it is very clear in the PP as to boat size and reason for this. 

 

We also are not allowed to produce any smoke or dust from the vessels. All boats have solid fuel stoves on them. 

 

However the solid fuel thing has now been overtaken by this environment bill thing so that's got potential to get interesting obviously. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Yes. My central London residential mooring has planning permission for three 18m long narrow boats however all berths have been occupied by wide beam vessels for ten years now and the berths have been auctioned as 22mx4.2 metres per berth since the start of the BW/CRT mooring auction process. 

Does that mean the boat owners have to 'reside' in one side of the boat, and only visit the other side?

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On 23/02/2022 at 15:32, magpie patrick said:

I put the idea to a barge-dwelling friend. His first response was that 30 years ago on my walk I’d have been knifed. Bargees have civilised the canal-side. He added that the average London bargee couldn’t afford expensive retrofitting. But if we can phase out gas boilers with government grants, couldn’t we at least make sure greener technology is installed on the new-build narrow boats that will be lining the London canals in 30 years’ time?

 

There was a follow-up letter on Saturday which disputes from experience the claim that canals were more dangerous 30 years ago. It also suggests that as many boat dwellers are not specifically interested in canals but seek cheap accommodation, a better way to deal with the pollution problem would be provision of reasonably priced homes for rental or purchase.

 

Tam

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8 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

There was a follow-up letter on Saturday which disputes from experience the claim that canals were more dangerous 30 years ago. It also suggests that as many boat dwellers are not specifically interested in canals but seek cheap accommodation, a better way to deal with the pollution problem would be provision of reasonably priced homes for rental or purchase.

 

Tam

This would be a benefit for society as a whole, not just those who are adversely affected by the floating shanty towns.

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11 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

There was a follow-up letter on Saturday which disputes from experience the claim that canals were more dangerous 30 years ago. It also suggests that as many boat dwellers are not specifically interested in canals but seek cheap accommodation, a better way to deal with the pollution problem would be provision of reasonably priced homes for rental or purchase.

 

Tam

 

Even if house prices halved, or quartered, there would still be a load of people who could not quite afford one, so would be seeking cheaper accommodation. 

 

I remember back in 1976 when I was trying to buy one, the media was full of all the same arguments about 'overpriced property". Back then, small houses were £5,000 each.

 

So we bought a boat to live on. Plus ça change.

 

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Even if house prices halved, or quartered, there would still be a load of people who could not quite afford one, so would be seeking cheaper accommodation. 

 

I remember back in 1976 when I was trying to buy one, the media was full of all the same arguments about 'overpriced property". Back then, small houses were £5,000 each.

 

So we bought a boat to live on. Plus ça change.

 

While I agree that there will always be a section of society struggling with housing, things have got worse in real terms. In 1979 as a junior draughtsman I earned £5.2k/year in my first year and could have bought a nice terraced house where I lived for £7k. That same job now would pay perhaps £25k but probably less. The equivalent house is £120K. Rent has followed house price. Earnings have not.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

While I agree that there will always be a section of society struggling with housing, things have got worse in real terms. In 1979 as a junior draughtsman I earned £5.2k/year in my first year and could have bought a nice terraced house where I lived for £7k. That same job now would pay perhaps £25k but probably less. The equivalent house is £120K. Rent has followed house price. Earnings have not.

 

 

Surely what matters to most people day-to-day is monthly mortgage/rent payments? These are low nowadays because interest rates have been rock bottom for many years (though this may be about to change...) which is one reason that house prices are so high -- compared to 15% mortgage interest rates when we bought our first house, a much higher multiple of income is "affordable" nowadays -- of course, not really "affordable" for many though...

 

The problem with this is that high house prices -- even with low interest rates, and therefore mortgage/rent payments -- really cripple people who have to find a massive sum to pay for a deposit to buy a house... 😞

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I'm always slightly bemused by this relatively modern assumption that everyone should expect to buy a house. Even into my 30s a great proportion of people rented property. Thatcher's sale of Council Houses was really the point where house ownership became a major ambition. It also meant there was a scarcity of rental accommodation so rents became much more pricey too, a spiral leading us eventually to where we are now.

 

Tam

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