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2022 insurance and survey requirements for older boats - help/thoughts please


Boat afloat

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2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

... buying a 40 year old boat without knowing anything about the condition of the engine, gearbox and electricals whilst being "new to boats" may well also be a pretty bad deal, especially if it's anywhere close to the 35-40k range talked about. The biggest problem with them finding the sort of issues insurers care about isn't the wait to fix them.

 

If you're willing to contact multiple insurers, try multiple surveyors. They might just stop you wasting a lot of money.

 

Maybe. The boat looks well maintained, there is a valid BSC, the previous owner lived aboard for two years and the whole thing looks and feels like a cared for craft. We've looked at a few boats and have got a feel for things. Having said that we are clearly no experts.

 

We are expecting things to be needed, perhaps in time, perhaps more immediately but that we could do them when we wanted rather than being told they needed to be done immediately (even though they might be very minor things) because of the insurance element.

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

Still cheaper than bricks and mortar.

Prices of second hand boats has risen due to demand having risen. But so have wages, by about 8% if the BBC is to be believed. 

The boat is not likely to sink, but third party should cover that.

You seem to be very worried about this purchase, are you sure you are going to enjoy living on a boat, I assume you are intending to live on it? 

 

As Alan posted we wont no. It;s a part time thing. 

 

Trust me I am not a worrier but my better half is and I am respecting her concerns given this is a joint thing. Usually I would make the larger purchases myself so have to weight up risks through my own eyes only but this will be 50% her money too and she is more cautious than I am, so by definition that is how 'worried' we will be coming across.

 

My personal view is to see if one of the specialists like Michael Stimpson can sort it and if he can't to get a new BSS done (so we know it's safe), although it still has one, insure it 3rd party, hope no-one torches it whilst we aren't there, get it home (3-4 weeks of sailing), get it out of the water at our leisure, tackle any jobs that come up when we are ready and then switch to fully comp insurance once we are in a position to do so. It's just an unpleasant feeling thinking of leaving the boat on the canal whilst we come home for days at a time on the looooonnnnnnnnggggggg journey home.

 

Having said that IF we don't need to do that, and can sort the insurance out (a good part of the reason for posting this thread up in the first place) then happy days. So far Michael Stimpson is our top lead (and a very pleasant guy too when I spoke to him earlier)...

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But your car was built to a type-approved design and is one of thousands of identical models to have come off the production line, and has been subject to an annual test that looks at many aspects of its roadworthiness. The insurers have a large database of vehicles just like yours, so they know how likely they are to fail as they age, and how much repairs or write-offs will cost them. 

And your car is almost certainly a lot younger than the boat you are trying to insure. Buy a boat the same age as your car and insurance won't be a problem.

 

Don't want to thread drift but I am a touch of an anomaly here in that I drive classic cars.

 

I do understand the first part of your post, and M Stimpson mentioned just that point, but I suppose my point is that it doesn;t matter how old my car gets my insurer asks for nothing special to insure it. Damn - at 40 years old they don't even need an MOT...and the insurance premium drops considerably for classic cars versus modern ones. Not apples and apples I accept though.

 

Anyway, that starts to sound like I'm having a pop at the insurers which as I say I'm not. I would just like someone to say "let me have a look at the hull survey, and the BSC and lets see if we need anything more from you, or whether we simply need to charge you more money for the fact you dont have the normal paperwork). I know this can be done because I've worked with insurers in a different field to create brand new products and underwriters can flex and price actual risk. Boat insurance, at first glance seems to be very vanilla but I retain faith there is at least one insurer out there who will look at the case on it's merits, or otherwise, and quote based upon our circumstances, not a document somewhere in their files.

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11 minutes ago, Boat afloat said:

 

Maybe. The boat looks well maintained, there is a valid BSC, the previous owner lived aboard for two years and the whole thing looks and feels like a cared for craft. We've looked at a few boats and have got a feel for things. Having said that we are clearly no experts.

 

We are expecting things to be needed, perhaps in time, perhaps more immediately but that we could do them when we wanted rather than being told they needed to be done immediately (even though they might be very minor things) because of the insurance element.

 

As Alan posted we wont no. It;s a part time thing. 

 

Trust me I am not a worrier but my better half is and I am respecting her concerns given this is a joint thing. Usually I would make the larger purchases myself so have to weight up risks through my own eyes only but this will be 50% her money too and she is more cautious than I am, so by definition that is how 'worried' we will be coming across.

 

My personal view is to see if one of the specialists like Michael Stimpson can sort it and if he can't to get a new BSS done (so we know it's safe), although it still has one, insure it 3rd party, hope no-one torches it whilst we aren't there, get it home (3-4 weeks of sailing), get it out of the water at our leisure, tackle any jobs that come up when we are ready and then switch to fully comp insurance once we are in a position to do so. It's just an unpleasant feeling thinking of leaving the boat on the canal whilst we come home for days at a time on the looooonnnnnnnnggggggg journey home.

 

Having said that IF we don't need to do that, and can sort the insurance out (a good part of the reason for posting this thread up in the first place) then happy days. So far Michael Stimpson is our top lead (and a very pleasant guy too when I spoke to him earlier)...

Are you aware that the BSS is not for your safety but for others outside your boat's safety?  Its not like an MOT, its so that the licensing authority can impress on others how well they execute their health and safety policy. It does very little for the safety of the owner or residents in the boat.

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5 minutes ago, Boat afloat said:

I would just like someone to say "let me have a look at the hull survey, and the BSC and lets see if we need anything more from you, or whether we simply need to charge you more money for the fact you dont have the normal paperwork). I know this can be done because I've worked with insurers in a different field to create brand new products and underwriters can flex and price actual risk. Boat insurance, at first glance seems to be very vanilla but I retain faith there is at least one insurer out there who will look at the case on it's merits, or otherwise, and quote based upon our circumstances, not a document somewhere in their files.

If you get talking to Mike Stimpson he will tell you it used to be like this, but because of significant losses in other parts of the marine insurance market (which are quite irrelevant to canal boating), Lloyds of London have tightened up on the underwriting criteria, meaning that insurers have become more risk averse to anything that doesn't fit neatly into one of their boxes. And as you have found out, several of the main insurers in the narrowboat market are now just not interested in older boats.

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17 minutes ago, Boat afloat said:

I can see the point although my car insurers haven't asked for a survey before I insured my car... 

 

But a cars MOT is a very different 'test' to a boat BSS.

The boat BSS is simply a list of things / conditions that the navigation authority want to see the boat comply with - it is not a 'law' which has specific requirements and C&RT (the owner of the BSS issuing authority) can and do change the requirements  - there are big changes coming to the BSS from April this year.

 

The MOT system is a national (Government owned) and is much more onerous with emission testing, brakes etc etc. and criteria which must be met (measured by computer) and, unlike the BSS, does not rely on interpretation of the rules by an examiner.

 

Because of this it devalues the BSS test - boats are 'passed' which do not comply, and boats are failed that do fully comply with the rules.

 

Every boat I have had I set up to fail the BSS test and every one passed because the BSS examiner did not read the 'rules' and just applied what he thought the rules should say. I did have one boat that failed, but not because of the 'trap I had set' but because he said that an RCD was compulsory when the rules say it is advisory only.

I have made complaints against examiners a number of times and yet nothing happens.

 

The system remains that a pass or fail appears to depend on the quality of the chocolate biscuits you provide for the examiner.

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1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Are you aware that the BSS is not for your safety but for others outside your boat's safety?  Its not like an MOT, its so that the licensing authority can impress on others how well they execute their health and safety policy. It does very little for the safety of the owner or residents in the boat.

 

Which for @Boat afloat's benefit is why insurers are asking for a full survey.

 

I have just had my BSC re-certified and I asked about a couple of issues with my ongoing plumbing and electrical re-work. With his examiners hat on I got the response "we have no guidance on that" and then with his hat off "I think you should move that". I passed but I know damn well if I were to re-connect my 240V system right now it would be potentially lethal to me.

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10 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

I passed but I know damn well if I were to re-connect my 240V system right now it would be potentially lethal to me.

 

The 230v section of the BSS is all 'advisory' you could have 'a life threatening wiring system' and it would still pass. The examiner cannot fail a boat because of 'dangerous wiring'

 

Examples from the BSS - note the letter "A" in the top right hand side of the 'box'

 

"A" means advisory, "you really should do it but it is not a requirement (It would have an "R" inplace of the "A") so I cannot fail it".

 

 

 

Screenshot (1010).png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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That's very interesting and exactly the sort of actual real life examples and detail that's useful. I think we might have been putting more faith in the BSS than we should. My better half downloaded the form the other month and said it ran to something ridiculous like 70 odd pages. "that sounds onerous and thorough" said I...clearly mistakenly?

 

Just picking up on the BSS thing then would a Gas Engineer and Electrician be able to test a boats systems adequately or is a specialist marine equivalent of both needed?

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26 minutes ago, Boat afloat said:

That's very interesting and exactly the sort of actual real life examples and detail that's useful. I think we might have been putting more faith in the BSS than we should. My better half downloaded the form the other month and said it ran to something ridiculous like 70 odd pages. "that sounds onerous and thorough" said I...clearly mistakenly?

 

Just picking up on the BSS thing then would a Gas Engineer and Electrician be able to test a boats systems adequately or is a specialist marine equivalent of both needed?

The BSC examinars are appointed, by BSC organisation, not just any old person. 

I got a Gas Safe with Boating  Examiner cos I wanted some gas work done.

If you are liveaboard there may be slightly different requirements, are you going to liveaboard? 

The Examiner will issue a Certificate, I have four which were all issued even though there were obvious (to me) fails. 

You need a BSC to get a CRT licence and Insurance if you  have the boat afloat on CRT waters. 

The BSC is a confused scheme, just be aware of that,

Edited by LadyG
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7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

The BSC examinars are appointed, by BSC organisation, not just any old person. 

I got a Gas Safe with Boating examiner cos I wanted some gas work done, also if you are liveaboard there may be slightly different requirements, are you liveaboard? 

 

 

The first part of that post makes me think we should trust the examiners but I also hear comments about quality of chocolate biscuits...?

 

We intend to get the boat home which will involve 20 days of cont. cruising, but we will split this over a number of weeks and come home inbetween, hence the concern about leaving th boat at the side of the canal 100 miles from home whilst we do so. Perhaps book into marinas...?

 

Once home, the boat would live in a marina and then be lived on for a month here, a fortnight there, and then moored again whilst normal life consumes us again.

 

In time we would love to CC and that's the plan. Whether it is on this boat or not remains to be seen.

 

What are you thinking when posing the question?...(curious)

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I hope you get things sorted satisfactorily. FWIW, I put insurers in the same bracket as estate agents. They're not my favourite people, in fact I think they're parasites. I was a motorbike courier for many years & I had my fair share of accidents. I never found out which way any claims went unless I was sued & even then I never got told anything except for when a insurance guy phoned me to tell me that they were going to 'stall him for as long as possible & hope he goes away.'

Whilst that benefitted me, I couldn't help thinking how that would be for me if I was making that claim...

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16 minutes ago, Boat afloat said:

 

The first part of that post makes me think we should trust the examiners but I also hear comments about quality of chocolate biscuits...?

 

We intend to get the boat home which will involve 20 days of cont. cruising, but we will split this over a number of weeks and come home inbetween, hence the concern about leaving th boat at the side of the canal 100 miles from home whilst we do so. Perhaps book into marinas...?

 

Once home, the boat would live in a marina and then be lived on for a month here, a fortnight there, and then moored again whilst normal life consumes us again.

 

In time we would love to CC and that's the plan. Whether it is on this boat or not remains to be seen.

 

What are you thinking when posing the question?...(curious)

Before I answer that...... there is no such thing as a Continuous Cruising Licence, there is one licence for most boaters, you either have a home mooring, or you have no home mooring, that's it🙂. You phone the CRT and advise them of your status. 

If you live aboard, and your Examiner does not have Gas Safe with Boating, then your Examiner will ask for a bubble tester to be fitted. 

Others will chip in if I have not explained that correctly. 

As far as my licence is concerned, I started off with a home mooring in a marina, then no home mooring when I went out and no longer paid for a mooring. 

If you have no home mooring CRT monitor your boat, this is where the 14 day in one place kicks in. Others will chip in if that is causing confusion 😊

Edited by LadyG
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Just now, LadyG said:

Before I answer that...... there is no such thing as a Continuous Cruising Licence, there is one licence for most boaters, you either have a home mooring, or you have no home mooring, that's it🙂

 

Where did he ask about a CC license?

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2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Before I answer that...... there is no such thing as a Continuous Cruising Licence, there is one licence for most boaters, you either have a home mooring, or you have no home mooring, that's it🙂

If you live aboard, and your Examiner does not have Gas Safe with Boating, then your Examiner will ask for a bubble tester to be fitted. 

Others will chip in if I have not explained that correctly. 

As far as my licence is concerned, I started off with a home mooring in a marina, then no home mooring when I went out and no longer paid for a mooring. 

 

Fair enough. I wasn't sure in what context I was answering the question about whether we were liveaboards hence giving the detail of our plans.

 

Thanks - have heard the phrase "bubble tester" but not checked it out so I will because all knowledge is good and I (WE) want to learn because this will be a huge part of our life going forward if time/finances/life allows us the luxury.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

Where did he ask about a CC license?

He is a newby, he is almost certainly going to be thinking about licencing.

It's called pre-empting.

The boat is to be moved, in stages. His home marina will not be his home mooring until he pays mooring fees.

Edited by LadyG
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58 minutes ago, Boat afloat said:

Just picking up on the BSS thing then would a Gas Engineer and Electrician be able to test a boats systems adequately or is a specialist marine equivalent of both needed?

 

The requirements for both gas and electric are very VERY different to a domestic 'house'

 

For example the gas-fitter will have a card (like a driving licence) which shows each category he is allowed to work on, you will need someone qualified to work on :

1) LPG

2) Boats.

 

As you can imagine he could be LPG / caravan qualified  and not worry about small leaks as the gas will just escape and go thru the floor vents and disperse. There are no floor vents in a boat so the gas collects in the bilges until one day it goes BOOOOOM.

Very different techniques and practices.

 

The 'lectrician needs to understand that domestic cable is not allowed to be used in a boat (it is too stiff, and vibration can cause wire breakages) he aslo needs to forget about current rating of cables and learn about volt drop - use the wrong cable in a long thin boat, you can put 12 volts in one end and only get 10 volts out of the other end and nothing works.

 

A car electician might seem to be a good 'fit' for working on a boat system, but they use the car body as the negative return - that is not allowed on boat wiring, everything must be wired with twin-wiring.

 

so, it is easiest to say - yes you need specialist gas and electrical installers / engineers

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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9 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

Out of interest what boat are you going for, size/make?

 

I'll answer this Mike but battening down the hatches for the comments that may come from forum users dsaying 'oooooooo I wouldnt do that if I were you!!'.

 

Hancock & Lane 52 footer.

 

Heard good things about the former in terms of build quality and layout of the latter suits us.

 

 

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

He is a newby, he is almost certainly going to be think about licencing.

It's called pre-emting.

The boat is to be moved, in stages, his home marina will not be his home mooring until he pays mooring fees. 

 

We have checked out licencing etc so think we are sorted there.

 

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OP,

why not insure 3rd party, until such a time you can arrange for an out of water survey?

 

I think you may be worrying unnecessarily about quite a few things. 

Must admit I’ve skim read most of the thread, so apologies if I say anything out of turn. 
 

The boat has a BSS, no need to get another. No need to confuse your situation more than it needs to be. 
 

I would explain my predicemant to the insurers. Tell them you have a survey from a year or so ago which you will provide (get a copy from the seller) And tell them you aim to have an out of water survey at the first opportunity which might not be until May (or whenever). But until then you need some sort of cover and ask what can they do to help?
 

It is highly unlikely someone will steal your boat in the interim or even catch fire and sink. 👍

 

I have a hull which is possibly the best part of 150 years old with 30+ year old overplating, and I have to have regular hull surveys. My insurance company has made allowances when needed. Sometimes it’s simply explaining honestly what’s required from them. 


 

 

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We're insured by Gjw and they require a survey every 7 years, which is better than the 5 years most insist on. I've recently booked a surveyor and he said that many insurers are now asking for a survey for third party. Boat is over 80 years old. 

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21 hours ago, Boat afloat said:

 

Fair enough. I wasn't sure in what context I was answering the question about whether we were liveaboards hence giving the detail of our plans.

 

Thanks - have heard the phrase "bubble tester" but not checked it out so I will because all knowledge is good and I (WE) want to learn because this will be a huge part of our life going forward if time/finances/life allows us the luxury.

 

 

 

A "bubble tester" is a crude device that allows anyone to check for gas leaks in the boats gas system by pressing a button and watching to see if any bubbles appear over a period of a minute or more.

 

The usual way of checking for leaks in fixed gas systems is to use a manometer, which can measure tiny pressure drops in a system. However it requires the blanking screws removing from the test points to connect it, which prevents a BSS examiner who is not Gas Safe registered from connecting one.

 

I always insist that any BSS examiner I employ is Gas Safe registered with "LPG" and "Boat" endorsements on his ID card.

Edited by cuthound
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This is also super helpful thanks and thank you to those that have wished us well on this 'journey'. All knowledge is good and we are learning so much as we ask questions and listen to the answers.

 

We are currently awaiting Michael Stimpson to see what he can do. Another broker someone put us on to has come back to say all insurance bar TPO (no theft or fire cover) will require a survey with their panel. That seems to be the way it is now.

 

Hoping Michael can sort something or looks like we'll need to go TPO for now and then look at fully comp when we can have a full survey done.

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2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

A "bubble tester" is a crude device that allows anyone to check for gas leaks in the boats gas system by pressing a button and watching to see if any bubbles appear over a period of a minute or more.

 

The usual way of checking for leaks in fixed gas systems is to use a manometer, which can measure tiny pressure drops in a system. However it requires the blanking screws removing from the test points to connect it, which prevents a BSS examiner who is not Gas Safe registered from connecting one.

 

I always insist that any BSS examiner I employ is Gas Safe registered with "LPG" and "Boat" endorsements on his ID card.

 

That is super helpful thanks for that!!

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