2022 insurance and survey requirements for older boats - help/thoughts please

[Boat afloat]

Hi there and I'm really hoping you can help us.

 

We are new to the forum and up until 2 days ago were really looking forward to our first narrowboat and to start enjoying (part time) canal life.

 

We've found a boat (+40 years old) and have gone to insure it so we can get our licence. And here the problems started.

 

I've read up much on this forum and others about all risks insurance for older boats (20+ depending on insurer) but also saw that many people seemed to just sail through the storm with their existing insurers.

 

Our experience from February 2022 is that it seems almost impossible, if not impossible, to fully comp insure a 40 year old NB without a "full out of water survey". Previous threads on this forum suggests that things were certainly tightening up as the pool of insurers got ever smaller, but it seems that things have now reached a point where there is no wriggle room.

 

To make things worse it seems the insurers are taking the stance that "ALL recommendations" need to be complied with.

 

Options seem to be:

- comply, but this will take too much time for both seller and buyer really and we open ourselves up to whatever little bits the surveyor puts in writing and an unknown repair bill

- go TPO, but we aren't wealthy enough to just write off the value of the boat should someone destroy it whilst it is not in our sight

- get a fresh BSC to give us comfort it shouldn't burst into flames, but this doesn't insure the boat or our savings

 

Just to be clear before anyone reaches for a flamethrower but we are not, in theory at least, averse to the idea of a survey. Given we are buying an old boat it's a very good idea, although the boat does have a very recent hull survey with some repair work carried out, but it's the fact the full survey will take months to sort, plus finding contractors to fix things, plus the fact the insurer is in effect forcing us to fix everything the survey might bring up, whether it's a safety issue or otherwise. Also this tightening up seems a worrying sign of things to come perhaps?

 

I have spoken to a boat surveyor but as you can imagine he's basically telling me that there is lots that can go wrong with boats and caveat emptor etc. Fair enough.

 

* So, having laid that out what am I actually asking? Well, I suppose I;d dearly love for someone to say 'call these people because they definitely do it' but I can't see that happening.

 

* Given just how many older boats there are how on earth is everyone else coping with this or are they just lucky as existing customers they are slipping through the net? Surely there are hundreds of people who have had this dilemma/issue?

 

* Has anyone got experience of having this survey and just how much 'stuff' comes up? Should we be as apprehensive of the process as we are? Equally would the seller (a boater of 4 years+) be expecting all this hassle?

 

* Does anyone have any bright ideas?

 

NOTE

Insurers we have tried and failed with so far:

Compare-boat-insurance (23 insurers on the panel)

Craft Insure

Insure My.co.uk

Insure4boats

GJW

Collidge (although awaiting details of exactly what "survey" they require but fully expect the answer to be "full"

Haven Knox

Towergate

Y Yachts/Topsail

WG Yachts

Navigators & General (Zurich)

 

All genuinely helpful suggestions gratefully received!!

Edited February 23, 2022 by Boat afloat
sorting typos

[Tracy D'arth]

So why not insure it 3rd party which will cover others and your risks from others and salvage costs but not your own boat accidents?  Then you do what we all do, avoid accidents.

Go on line to Craftinsure and you can be insured in 5 minutes.

[Boat afloat]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

So why not insure it 3rd party which will cover others and your risks from others and salvage costs but not your own boat accidents?  Then you do what we all do, avoid accidents.

Go on line to Craftinsure and you can be insured in 5 minutes.

Thanks for the super quick reply there.

 

Sorry - I missed Craft Insure off the list (now edited). They want a "full out of water condition survey" too. I've updated the original post adding them to the list.

 

I'm not concerned about accidents as I'm confident in my boat handling skills. What I suppose I am concerned about is:

- theft (does that happen in practice?) although the boat will be marina based for much of it's non-cruising time

- fire. Not so much the boat bursting into flames but malicious damage by a third party whilst we aren't cruising/in the marina

- sinking and the costs of sorting that out. Again, with a solid hull survey completed is that really likely?

 

I suppose one of the things I wondered was how common is it for boats to be insured 3rd party only but be worth a few quid? When I spoke to the surveyor he intimated that only people with boats with "a few grand" would be insured 3rd party only, and he seemed surprised we would consider it on a boat worth many multiples of that...

[Mike Hurley]

On a boat over 40 years old you would be nuts to not have a survey. It may get a good report and then go fully comp straight away.

[enigmatic]

There are non fully comp options if a speedy purchase is your priority 

 

But hardly surprising insurers don't want to give you fully comp insurance for what as far as they know is a worthless fire hazard bought at massively inflated value and it really shouldn't take months to get a survey done. Most people solve the problem of needing a survey to be done by getting a survey done.

 

Surveyors split their recommendations between stuff which is critical for insurance/compliance/having a decent boat and suggestions like cutting inspection hatches for the cabin build or blacking the base plate anyway; it's the former the insurers care about

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, Boat afloat said:

Thanks for the super quick reply there.

 

Sorry - I missed Craft Insure off the list (now edited). They want a "full out of water condition survey" too. I've updated the original post adding them to the list.

 

I'm not concerned about accidents as I'm confident in my boat handling skills. What I suppose I am concerned about is:

- theft (does that happen in practice?) although the boat will be marina based for much of it's non-cruising time

- fire. Not so much the boat bursting into flames but malicious damage by a third party whilst we aren't cruising/in the marina

- sinking and the costs of sorting that out. Again, with a solid hull survey completed is that really likely?

 

I suppose one of the things I wondered was how common is it for boats to be insured 3rd party only but be worth a few quid? When I spoke to the surveyor he intimated that only people with boats with "a few grand" would be insured 3rd party only, and he seemed surprised we would consider it on a boat worth many multiples of that...

As I understand it 3rd party will cover these risks that you detail. I have insured a 43 year old boat with Craftinsure this year for £200 on the strength of a not perfect survey that is 4 years old, no questions asked.

 On an older boat just accept that an out of water survey will be required every 5 years. You get it done at blacking time, minimises cost. A hull only survey will cost £300 to £500 depending on the surveyor and where you are.

You cannot blame the insurers. Would you accept the risk? 

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, Boat afloat said:

plus the fact the insurer is in effect forcing us to fix everything the survey might bring up, whether it's a safety issue or otherwise.

 

 

Have you actually bought the boat, or, just 'found' a boat ?

If you bought it then why did you not have a survey before handing over your money ? It could be on the verge of sinking or have totally unsafe gas / electric / fuel systems.

Or - it could be in superb condition and the bargain of the year - but neither you nor any insurers will know that without a survey.

 

It is irrelevant if the things the insurer want fixing are 'safety related' or not.

The insurer is saying to you, if anything happens to your boat, I will give you £1000s, so they need to make sure that you are not scamming them and that the boat is 

a) worth what you say it is

b) not a high risk which would require higher premiums.

 

I cannot imagine that a 40 year old boat was particularly expensive so if you do not want to pay for a survey then your only option is 3rd party and cover the risk to your own property yourself. You may in fact find that your personal property (computers, phones, clothing etc) is covered on your house insurance.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

For Fully Comp, all insurers will want to see an out of water hull survey on a boat over about 25 years old. But the sellers existing survey may be sufficient, particularly if you can document any work done to address issues raised in that survey.

 

Otherwise go Third Party Only for a year, while you sort out a new survey and any issues arising. 

 

Or talk to a broker who can tailor a policy to your needs. The standard (and probably cheaper) online policies are only designed for straightforward cases.

You could probably negotiate a policy that would give you cover, with some limitations, for a period of say 6 months which would give you time to sort any problems found by a survey.

Give Michael Stimpson of Circle Marine a call.

Michael Stimpson F.Inst.I.C.

INLAND MARINE CONSULTANT

Direct Dial: 01923 770425 E: michael.stimpson@circlemarine.co.uk

 

11.30 - 7pm Monday to Thursday, 11.30 - 5 Friday

Circle Marine Insurance Services | Newcourt House | New Street| Lymington | Hampshire | SO41 9BQ

 

[Boat afloat]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

For Fully Comp, all insurers will want to see an out of water hull survey on a boat over about 25 years old. But the sellers existing survey may be sufficient, particularly if you can document any work done to address issues raised in that survey.

 

Otherwise go Third Party Only for a year, while you sort out a new survey and any issues arising. 

 

Or talk to a broker who can tailor a policy to your needs. The standard (and probably cheaper) online policies are only designed for straightforward cases.

You could probably negotiate a policy that would give you cover, with some limitations, for a period of say 6 months which would give you time to sort any problems found by a survey.

Give Michael Stimpson of Circle Marine a call.

Michael Stimpson F.Inst.I.C.

INLAND MARINE CONSULTANT

Direct Dial: 01923 770425 E: michael.stimpson@circlemarine.co.uk

 

11.30 - 7pm Monday to Thursday, 11.30 - 5 Friday

Circle Marine Insurance Services | Newcourt House | New Street| Lymington | Hampshire | SO41 9BQ

 

Thanks for this!!!!! 

 

I've just called him. He's calling me back shortly to discuss...

24 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

There are non fully comp options if a speedy purchase is your priority 

 

But hardly surprising insurers don't want to give you fully comp insurance for what as far as they know is a worthless fire hazard bought at massively inflated value and it really shouldn't take months to get a survey done. Most people solve the problem of needing a survey to be done by getting a survey done.

 

Surveyors split their recommendations between stuff which is critical for insurance/compliance/having a decent boat and suggestions like cutting inspection hatches for the cabin build or blacking the base plate anyway; it's the former the insurers care about

 

I can understand the insurers point of view and unless I've mis-typed anything I am really NOT having a go at the insurers - simply trying to navigate the predicament we are in and see what options are there. 

 

Regards the timings I've just been quoted end of April to get the boat inspected with a laugh when I asked how quickly contractors could do the work. Doesnt bode well but I also appreciate it's not a massive poll...

[Boat afloat]

25 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

As I understand it 3rd party will cover these risks that you detail. I have insured a 43 year old boat with Craftinsure this year for £200 on the strength of a not perfect survey that is 4 years old, no questions asked.

 On an older boat just accept that an out of water survey will be required every 5 years. You get it done at blacking time, minimises cost. A hull only survey will cost £300 to £500 depending on the surveyor and where you are.

You cannot blame the insurers. Would you accept the risk? 

 

- No-one seems to accept a hull survey only from the calls we've made??

- ALL people we have spoken to have said that ALL recommendations need to be fixed regardless of severity. There seems to be NO flex on this from those we have asked...

- I don't blame the insurers. We just need to work out what best to do?

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Have you actually bought the boat, or, just 'found' a boat ?

 

I cannot imagine that a 40 year old boat was particularly expensive 

Hi there

- we have 'found it'. We haven't paid for it yet but both seller and buyer are excited about starting their new ventures so plenty of emotional currency has exchanged hands.

- depends on how wealthy you are. I can;t believe how expensive boats are. Easy to spend £30K - £45K on a 40 year old boat without trying...

[Mike Hurley]

Just now, Boat afloat said:

 

 We just need to work out what best to do?

Get a survey, a 40 year old boat would have been built with a 6/8mm bottom and possibly 5 mm sides. Horror stories can be found on here.

[Boat afloat]

We have a hull survey from 2021 with recommendations (priority and advisories). We also have a receipt for subsequent works.

 

It;s not like we have nothing to go on. Gas and electrics etc are un-tested though, although surely thats a quick fix? Suppose a new BSS would test those to give us some safety comfort?

[Mike Hurley]

You may be lucky and find an insurance company to except the survey, maybe not. When you made enquiries did you mention the recent survey? Would anyone except it?

[Alan de Enfield]

The problem is that with a 12 month old survey, there has been plenty of time gone by for the owner to have ripped out the gas system, electric wiring, drilled holes the the hull and done untold damage - as far as the insurers know it doesn't even have an engine.

This is obviously possible with a younger boat, but much less likely.

 

They want to see evidence that the old-boat is a low risk before they offer to cover it.

[Janz]

My tub is also forty years old & I had all that crap with insurers, so I just went for third party insurance at £86 per year. Ain't getting a survey for a dirt cheap floating building site. That's like getting some dweeb from Halfords to check over a £300 car. Don't need fully comp insurance for a boat that has nothing on board & seeing as all I had in the way of a floor was several plywood panels, it was easy enough to lift them & check out the steel myself before I bought it.

Buying a boat is a minefield. I would definitely recommend a survey on anything expensive, say over £25,000 but for something that costs less than its scrap value it seems a bit excessive to me. I don't really have a choice in any case... surveys cost a lot & my tiny budget wouldn't extend to it. I'll take some pics of my hull later if I have time. There is rust under the floor but it's not bad & there should be enough solid steel between me & the water to last the next ten years or so, I hope.

[Janz]

6 minutes ago, Janz said:

My tub is also forty years old & I had all that crap with insurers, so I just went for third party insurance at £86 per year. Ain't getting a survey for a dirt cheap floating building site. That's like getting some dweeb from Halfords to check over a £300 car. Don't need fully comp insurance for a boat that has nothing on board & seeing as all I had in the way of a floor was several plywood panels, it was easy enough to lift them & check out the steel myself before I bought it.

Buying a boat is a minefield. I would definitely recommend a survey on anything expensive, say over £25,000 but for something that costs less than its scrap value it seems a bit excessive to me. I don't really have a choice in any case... surveys cost a lot & my tiny budget wouldn't extend to it. I'll take some pics of my hull later if I have time. There is rust under the floor but it's not bad & there should be enough solid steel between me & the water to last the next ten years or so, I hope.

I should add that I'm brand new to boats too. Three weeks new, in fact. So don't act on anything I type but if you want to get on the water, you must start somewhere. I consider I've been fairly lucky so far with how the dice rolled for me in buying my tub as an abandoned project. It was newly blacked & out of the water when I viewed it, so I could see everything. Someone had spent a lot of money on exterior paint & a new canopy, so I only have myself to blame if it has wafer thin steel but so far, so good...

[Mike Hurley]

Problem with the market at the moment is the demand is high so a lot of sellers wont wait weeks while you book a survey, someone turns up and is willing to take it as is, deal done.

[Nightwatch]

We are with Craftinsure. Have been for years. Our boat has just turned 30 and needed a hull condition survey. The survey was good. I had  previously confirmed with Craftinsure what survey was required. They just needed an out of water hull only survey.

 

I asked do they want a copy of the survey, they said no but keep it safe in case there’s a potential claim in the future. Very reasonable I thought.

 

We made a claim some twelve years ago, all went through okay. Like everything else, the premiums are going up.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Boat afloat said:

Thanks for this!!!!! 

 

I've just called him. He's calling me back shortly to discuss...

Tell him I put you on to him!

[Captain Pegg]

@Boat afloat have you asked the surveyor who did the 2021 survey if they are willing to transfer that survey into your name? There will be a fee but it's likely that any survey provided to support insurance must be in the name of the insured party. It would also be wise to check that the insurer will accept that it is still current given it was done last year and it may not resolve the issue of completing all the recommendations.

 

If a full survey is required engage someone to do an internal survey which can be done whenever the surveyor is available. It will be useful in giving you an understanding of your boat's systems.

 

I have a 53 year old boat with 35 year old overplating. I can't say my experiences reflect some of the commonly held views expressed on this forum regarding older craft, steelwork and insurance. I am changing my insurer at midnight tonight - because I need a different form of insurance - and have had very little fuss made about the condition of the boat. I did though require a survey at the outset.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Boat afloat said:

 

- No-one seems to accept a hull survey only from the calls we've made??

- ALL people we have spoken to have said that ALL recommendations need to be fixed regardless of severity. There seems to be NO flex on this from those we have asked...

- I don't blame the insurers. We just need to work out what best to do?

Hi there

- we have 'found it'. We haven't paid for it yet but both seller and buyer are excited about starting their new ventures so plenty of emotional currency has exchanged hands.

- depends on how wealthy you are. I can;t believe how expensive boats are. Easy to spend £30K - £45K on a 40 year old boat without trying...

Still cheaper than bricks and mortar.

Average income per working person in UK might be £30k, per annum. I think some people spend that on a car, and you can't live in a car, you still need to buy a flat. 

Prices of second hand boats has risen due to demand having risen. But so have wages, by about 8% if the BBC is to be believed. 

You have to understand that any purchase or sale involves risk, you use insurance to mitigate your own risk. You still have to accept risk is part of adult life. 

If worried about theft, keep boat in a safe place, don't keep valuables on board. Make boat difficult to break in to.

The boat is not likely to sink, but third party should cover that.

You seem to be very worried about this purchase, are you sure you are going to enjoy living on a boat, I assume you are intending to live on it? 

Edited February 23, 2022 by LadyG

[enigmatic]

2 hours ago, Boat afloat said:

Thanks for this!!!!! 

 

I've just called him. He's calling me back shortly to discuss...

 

I can understand the insurers point of view and unless I've mis-typed anything I am really NOT having a go at the insurers - simply trying to navigate the predicament we are in and see what options are there. 

 

Regards the timings I've just been quoted end of April to get the boat inspected with a laugh when I asked how quickly contractors could do the work. Doesnt bode well but I also appreciate it's not a massive poll...

If you understand the insurers' point of view, also consider that from your own position, buying a 40 year old boat without knowing anything about the condition of the engine, gearbox and electricals whilst being "new to boats" may well also be a pretty bad deal, especially if it's anywhere close to the 35-40k range talked about. The biggest problem with them finding the sort of issues insurers care about isn't the wait to fix them.

 

If you're willing to contact multiple insurers, try multiple surveyors. They might just stop you wasting a lot of money.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

You seem to be very worried about this purchase, are you sure you are going to enjoy living on a boat, I assume you are intending to live on it? 

 

He said in his opening post :

 

3 hours ago, Boat afloat said:

We are new to the forum and up until 2 days ago were really looking forward to our first narrowboat and to start enjoying (part time) canal life.

 

[Boat afloat]

4 hours ago, Mike Hurley said:

You may be lucky and find an insurance company to except the survey, maybe not. When you made enquiries did you mention the recent survey? Would anyone except it?

 

We have done, where that's possible i.e. where we've had opportunity to talk to a human rather than a computer. Sadly no-one seems to care. It's been a matter of 'these are our rules and we need to be able to tick the boxes'. I don't have an issue with that but it doesn't help us progress.

 

 

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The problem is that with a 12 month old survey, there has been plenty of time gone by for the owner to have ripped out the gas system, electric wiring, drilled holes the the hull and done untold damage - as far as the insurers know it doesn't even have an engine.

This is obviously possible with a younger boat, but much less likely.

 

They want to see evidence that the old-boat is a low risk before they offer to cover it.

 

I can see the point although my car insurers haven't asked for a survey before I insured my car... 

 

I can see this is how boat insurance seems to be now so it looks to be what it is. Just hoping there are a couple of companies out there with a different approach - we just haven't found them yet.

 

 

4 hours ago, Janz said:

 So don't act on anything I type ...

 

That tickled me...ha ha

 

 

4 hours ago, Mike Hurley said:

Problem with the market at the moment is the demand is high so a lot of sellers wont wait weeks while you book a survey, someone turns up and is willing to take it as is, deal done.

 

That is exactly what we've found. You can say it's not right, or they are all daft etc but it's how it is right now. Maybe it will change and soften but that's the market right now.

 

 

3 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

We are with Craftinsure. Have been for years. They just needed an out of water hull only survey.

 

 

If only that were the case for us now. They definitely want a full survey and have committed as much to writing.

 

 

3 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

@Boat afloat have you asked the surveyor who did the 2021 survey if they are willing to transfer that survey into your name? There will be a fee but it's likely that any survey provided to support insurance must be in the name of the insured party. It would also be wise to check that the insurer will accept that it is still current given it was done last year and it may not resolve the issue of completing all the recommendations.

 

If a full survey is required engage someone to do an internal survey which can be done whenever the surveyor is available. It will be useful in giving you an understanding of your boat's systems.

 

I have a 53 year old boat with 35 year old overplating. I can't say my experiences reflect some of the commonly held views expressed on this forum regarding older craft, steelwork and insurance. I am changing my insurer at midnight tonight - because I need a different form of insurance - and have had very little fuss made about the condition of the boat. I did though require a survey at the outset.

 

 

 

That's very useful thanks. Michael Stimpson rang me back earlier and suggested we ask the surveyor about doing just that. I did speak to the surveyor earlier (before that suggestion cropped up) and I feel confident I can bung him a few quid and he'd do it - fingers crossed.

 

Your comment around insurers and a lack of fuss about the boat seems consistent with how many existing boaters find things...but not our experience at all.

 

 

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

The boat is not likely to sink, but third party should cover that.

You seem to be very worried about this purchase, are you sure you are going to enjoy living on a boat, I assume you are intending to live on it? 

 

[David Mack]

2 minutes ago, Boat afloat said:

I can see the point although my car insurers haven't asked for a survey before I insured my car... 

But your car was built to a type-approved design and is one of thousands of identical models to have come off the production line, and has been subject to an annual test that looks at many aspects of its roadworthiness. The insurers have a large database of vehicles just like yours, so they know how likely they are to fail as they age, and how much repairs or write-offs will cost them. 

And your car is almost certainly a lot younger than the boat you are trying to insure. Buy a boat the same age as your car and insurance won't be a problem.