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Offside vegetation – Staffs & Worcs (northern section)


Grassman

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It is certainly better where you have been.  Thank you.

 

 The summit of the S& W was dredged a few years ago, and that was preceded by a major cut back of the offside vegetation so the dredger could get near.  As a result it is not bad at the moment, though there are a few spots between Calf Health and Gailey,  especially after the marina.

There is plenty of  vegetation seeking a pole saw approaching Filance and  Penkridge.

 

 I appreciate you are limited by CART but your work would be better and last longer if the whole of a bush was trimmed  rather than stopping at a vertical line from the water edge.

 

N

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50 minutes ago, BEngo said:

 

 I appreciate you are limited by CART but your work would be better and last longer if the whole of a bush was trimmed  rather than stopping at a vertical line from the water edge.

 

N

This bit isn't always quite so straightforward, if you think of leaves as the food factory for the tree complete removal or very severe cutting back can cause a sort of "panic" reaction where the tree needs to replace the factory as quick as possible.

The irony of this is is can cause thicker heavier growth than if it was left, you might get a better clearance short term but a longer clearance if pruned lightly.

It's a bit complex with plenty of ifs and buts but as a general approach light pruning achieves a longer term clearance 

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30 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

This bit isn't always quite so straightforward, if you think of leaves as the food factory for the tree complete removal or very severe cutting back can cause a sort of "panic" reaction where the tree needs to replace the factory as quick as possible.

The irony of this is is can cause thicker heavier growth than if it was left, you might get a better clearance short term but a longer clearance if pruned lightly.

It's a bit complex with plenty of ifs and buts but as a general approach light pruning achieves a longer term clearance 

Is that still true if the pruning is only on one side, and the 'food factory' on the other side is unaffected?

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What Tree Monkey says is spot on. It's always a difficult decision to make whether to cut a tree down to it's base or leave the main trunk and just cut the protruding branches. There are also the practical issues of working from a boat such as the lack of stability or not being able to get close enough to the edge due to lack of water depth. With a fully extended long reach pole chainsaw pruner it's sometimes difficult to be precise in where to make a cut. It tends to be a do the best you can jobby 🙁. As for cutting back further than the edge of the canal, that can have legal implications because it's usually private land, but where we can we do manage to do this.

 

 

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We cruised NW from Fazeley earlier this week and noted a large number of stubs left from cutting back, so thank you for that. Now if only the volunteers who want to interfere with my working of locks could be persuaded to join your team, I’d be a happy bunny!

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11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

We cruised NW from Fazeley earlier this week and noted a large number of stubs left from cutting back, so thank you for that. Now if only the volunteers who want to interfere with my working of locks could be persuaded to join your team, I’d be a happy bunny!

The Fradley based lock volunteers do two days a week offside veg cutting and we IWA bods do two days, but it's winter only so you'll still have to 'tolerate' them in the summer Nick  🙂.

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

We cruised NW from Fazeley earlier this week and noted a large number of stubs left from cutting back, so thank you for that. Now if only the volunteers who want to interfere with my working of locks could be persuaded to join your team, I’d be a happy bunny!

 

Please don't leave stubs sticking out over the towpath when pruning, that's how I ended up in the cut with my bike... 😞

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6 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Please don't leave stubs sticking out over the towpath when pruning, that's how I ended up in the cut with my bike... 😞

CRT like us to sort any low hanging towpath vegetation but we tend to 'accidently' leave it so it helps to slow the cyclists down 🙂

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15 hours ago, Grassman said:

CRT like us to sort any low hanging towpath vegetation but we tend to 'accidently' leave it so it helps to slow the cyclists down 🙂

Well it slowed me right down to a very wet 0mph -- it was that or risk losing an eye... 😞

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Thank you for this - it really does make a difference and is appreciated.

 

We went round the Four Counties ring last August and then from Redhill Marina (Soar) up the Trent, T&M to Great Haywood and down the S&W in October. We weren't particularly looking for offside vegetation issues but those which were bad enough to notice in passing were:

 

1. Just south of Tixall Wide, between there and Tixall lock. It is barely wide enough for a single boat on some of the bends but I can't remember how much of that was trees and how much was rushes.

2. There were a couple of bridges which were quite obscured on the length of T&M up to Great Haywood which is where you are planning to go anyway? The worst was the iron topped skew bridge fairly near Great Haywood (sorry, can't remember the number but you will no doubt find it.

3. The T&M between Wychnor and Tatenhill Lock had a few sections. Aware this isn't on your stated area of intent, but it does appear to be within your general remit?

 

The biggest issue we found with the northern S&W isn't really in your remit but you may be able to have an effect, and that was the number of large submerged objects between Gailey and Calf Heath. These appear to be a mixture of collapsed sections of brickwork from the towpath wall, and sunken logs. These are big enough to cause our boat to roll alarmingly and are likely to be an issue for anything relatively deep-drafted. The logs in particular suggest that, in the process of trimming back the smaller overhanging vegetation it would be good if there is an opportunity to pick up on anything else which is on the point of falling in (usually standing dead) and pushing it backwards rather than allowing it to fall forwards.

 

Alec

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Thanks Agg221 this is very useful.

 

I’ve noted your comments about the S&W near Tixall and hopefully we can address those, and the T&M ones will be on our radar as I mentioned. I’m not certain but I think the Wychnor/Tatenhill section might have been sorted this winter by another group.

 

I cannot really answer you about submerged objects in the S&W. I think possibly when that section was dredged a couple of years ago and they used contractors to sort the offside veg beforehand, I suspect they weren’t as particular as us about removing any logs/cuttings which fall in the water. We are all boaters so we do make a concerted effort to remove as much of it as we can.

 

Contractors also tend to concentrate only on the larger growth and leave the lesser vegetation, whereas we will cut back the smaller stuff if it poses an impact on navigation such as line of sight on bends, approaches to bridges, opposite moorings etc.

 

Thanks again, and I will be passing on your feedback (and those of others) to the relevant CRT decision maker. CRT tend to make decisions based upon the amount of complaints/feedback from boaters, so whatever part of the country you are in and whatever issue it is, I recommend you let them know about any problematic places you encounter as it will increase the chances of something being done about it.

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Thanks Grassman,

 

Is there an equivalent group to yours for the Shropshire Union? There are quite a few sections on that where trees have fallen, mainly in cuttings, and been cut back enough to allow a boat to get through but no further. These in my view are more of an issue even than obstructed lines of sight, since they are solid objects and whacking into a foot diameter end of a cut off branch is really going to do some damage. They are visible in good light, but boating in the evening in a cutting when they have gone the same damp, dull colour as the water makes them hard to spot. In some cases, the section under the water is left further out than that above the water, making it even harder to navigate.

 

Alec

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When CRT began using volunteers for the OV cutting 5 years ago we and another group (on the Caldon Canal I think) were the first, and it was on a trial basis. Following it's successful trial they now have groups of volunteers doing it around the country but I don't know if that includes the Shroppie.

 

I suspect you are talking about Woodseeves and Grub St cuttings? If so then I believe CRT are thinking about major works being carried out and that includes major tree cutting and possibly even re-profiling the embankments. I think there was mention of this on this forum a while ago. If and when they will actually do anything as extensive is another matter though as the cost would be astronomical.

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43 minutes ago, Grassman said:

When CRT began using volunteers for the OV cutting 5 years ago we and another group (on the Caldon Canal I think) were the first, and it was on a trial basis. Following it's successful trial they now have groups of volunteers doing it around the country but I don't know if that includes the Shroppie.

 

I suspect you are talking about Woodseeves and Grub St cuttings? If so then I believe CRT are thinking about major works being carried out and that includes major tree cutting and possibly even re-profiling the embankments. I think there was mention of this on this forum a while ago. If and when they will actually do anything as extensive is another matter though as the cost would be astronomical.

I would add that those cuttings are not really volunteer level works, okay maybe some minor scrub clearance but beyond that there are some real issues there, big trees, unstable slopes, not a place to work for the unwary 

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14 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

I would add that those cuttings are not really volunteer level works, okay maybe some minor scrub clearance but beyond that there are some real issues there, big trees, unstable slopes, not a place to work for the unwary 

 

It isn't just the two major cuttings - for example there is a tree on the offside at Betton Wood which has been down some years. The bank there is less than 8'  high. There are quite a few similar situations most of the way up. I was also thinking more of the trees which have already fallen in the cut, rather than work up on the cutting sides. There are undoubtedly some challenges in removing them, but leaving them as a semi-permanent obstruction until they rot doesn't seem a reasonable solution either.

 

It seems to me the ideal long-term management strategy for the deep cuttings would be management as coppice, but the work to get to that stage would be both complex and phenomenally expensive. As such, leaving a part-blocked channel and an effectively permanently closed towpath 'because we are going to do it all properly at some point' must eventually become unacceptably long. It might be better to accept that it needs doing piecemeal to keep a level of operability in the system for the indefinite future.

 

I would also add that 'volunteer' covers a very broad spectrum. If, for example, you were to volunteer for a few weekends that wouldn't suddenly reduce your competence (I hope :=) ) and having done a reasonable amount with WRG around 20yrs ago there were definitely some highly skilled volunteers around then. I would agree that competence needs to be checked rather than presumed, but such things are possible as the WRG ticket scheme demonstrates.

 

Alec

 

 

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8 minutes ago, agg221 said:

 

It isn't just the two major cuttings - for example there is a tree on the offside at Betton Wood which has been down some years. The bank there is less than 8'  high. There are quite a few similar situations most of the way up. I was also thinking more of the trees which have already fallen in the cut, rather than work up on the cutting sides. There are undoubtedly some challenges in removing them, but leaving them as a semi-permanent obstruction until they rot doesn't seem a reasonable solution either.

 

It seems to me the ideal long-term management strategy for the deep cuttings would be management as coppice, but the work to get to that stage would be both complex and phenomenally expensive. As such, leaving a part-blocked channel and an effectively permanently closed towpath 'because we are going to do it all properly at some point' must eventually become unacceptably long. It might be better to accept that it needs doing piecemeal to keep a level of operability in the system for the indefinite future.

 

I would also add that 'volunteer' covers a very broad spectrum. If, for example, you were to volunteer for a few weekends that wouldn't suddenly reduce your competence (I hope :=) ) and having done a reasonable amount with WRG around 20yrs ago there were definitely some highly skilled volunteers around then. I would agree that competence needs to be checked rather than presumed, but such things are possible as the WRG ticket scheme demonstrates.

 

Alec

 

 

I wasn't trying to disparage volunteers more using it as an lasy(?) Way to highlight that those areas in particular need a specialised and carefully considered approach that would likely be beyond the standard volunteer works, obviously because of the diverse range of people who volunteer the individual skills may be there.

 

I have occasionally wondered how I would approach the felling in those cuttings and eventually come to the conclusion I wouldn't go anywhere near it :), but if I had to crane assisted fells and remove the timber to the top of the embankment in one hit.

 

the post felling stabilisation I would leave to competence engineers 

 

my skills are rusty and best left to brewing the tea nowadays  ;)

 

 

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The only problem areas I can think of are well up towards Wolverhampton so may be a bit outside your remit. There is a corner above Gailey, past the Industrial estate, through a bridge, winding hole offside and then a sharp left hand bend (sorry, maps are on the boat). A few years ago the trees after this bend were cut back up to but not including the foliage on the tree right on the bend. It seemed strange at the time and has only got worse as the tree continued to grow as the line of sight is poor.

The only other issue I've had is at a sewage outlet where the fishermen gather. It's past Coven, between the road bridge and the M54. Immediately after the bridge the canal is "topped up" with all that's good from the Sewage works, which attracts the fish and the fishermen. The offside is overgrown, line of sight heading north is poor as the canal bends after the bridge, and the outflow pushes your boat towards the offside and into the trees, particularly if you are going slowly for those fishing. You don't want to meet a boat there and if you do you need to put on power to offset the current from the sewage works while avoiding the trees and maintaining your position while the approaching boat passes through the bridge. Cue a number of upset fishermen but they were a grumpy lot to begin with. they certainly where after I'd passed.

I can't think of any other issues as long as you are sensible and hang back if you see a problem ahead. 

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2 hours ago, tree monkey said:

I wasn't trying to disparage volunteers more using it as an lasy(?) Way to highlight that those areas in particular need a specialised and carefully considered approach that would likely be beyond the standard volunteer works, obviously because of the diverse range of people who volunteer the individual skills may be there.

 

I have occasionally wondered how I would approach the felling in those cuttings and eventually come to the conclusion I wouldn't go anywhere near it :), but if I had to crane assisted fells and remove the timber to the top of the embankment in one hit.

 

the post felling stabilisation I would leave to competence engineers 

 

my skills are rusty and best left to brewing the tea nowadays  ;)

 

 

Apologies if my reply came across as a bit sharp - treating the terms 'volunteer' and 'amateur' as derogatory and automatically inferior is something of a hobby horse of mine and I probably jump to automatic subconscious assumptions. My experience with volunteer groups is that they span the full range from well-meaning but totally clueless and probably best kept away from anything as sharp as a pencil, through to out-performing professional teams (ever had any dealings with the Wendover restoration? That is one seriously impressive amateur team). I have a similar response to people who make derogatory comments about all scientists (being one myself).

 

I wonder whether the best way to tackle the cuttings wouldn't be to bring in a forestry team. Some of the teams which work the Welsh hillsides are used to that level of instability and angle, although it's mainly softwood. Given that it would be near clear-felling, certainly of anything large, it might be an appropriate approach, possibly using a skyline to get the timber up to the top. I personally wouldn't want to take it on either - dropping the odd standing dead oak in woodland without taking out anything around it is more my level of entertainment (even has canal content, as it's usually then milled for boat work) :)


Alec

Edited by agg221
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29 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Apologies if my reply came across as a bit sharp - treating the terms 'volunteer' and 'amateur' as derogatory and automatically inferior is something of a hobby horse of mine and I probably jump to automatic subconscious assumptions. My experience with volunteer groups is that they span the full range from well-meaning but totally clueless and probably best kept away from anything as sharp as a pencil, through to out-performing professional teams

Some years ago I got into conversation with a couple of English Heritage employees who were working up ladders trimming a high hedge at a country house. One of them commented that volunteers were useful for standing in the house, talking to visitors and ensuring that nobody touched things they weren't supposed to. But he said the ones who come to help out in the gardens turn up at 10.00, then sit down in the hut for a cup of tea and a chat, eventually get out and do maybe an hours weeding before breaking for a two hour lunch, stop again mid afternoon for more tea, and go home at 4.00!

Edited by David Mack
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18 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Apologies if my reply came across as a bit sharp - treating the terms 'volunteer' and 'amateur' as derogatory and automatically inferior is something of a hobby horse of mine and I probably jump to automatic subconscious assumptions. My experience with volunteer groups is that they span the full range from well-meaning but totally clueless and probably best kept away from anything as sharp as a pencil, through to out-performing professional teams (ever had any dealings with the Wendover restoration? That is one seriously impressive amateur team). I have a similar response to people who make derogatory comments about all scientists (being one myself).

 

I wonder whether the best way to tackle the cuttings wouldn't be to bring in a forestry team. Some of the teams which work the Welsh hillsides are used to that level of instability and angle, although it's mainly softwood. Given that it would be near clear-felling, certainly of anything large, it might be an appropriate approach, possibly using a skyline to get the timber up to the top. I personally wouldn't want to take it on either - dropping the odd standing dead oak in woodland without taking out anything around it is more my level of entertainment (even has canal content, as it's usually then milled for boat work) :)


Alec

No stress or offence taken in any way :)

 

The extraction would be the real issue, aside from actually standing of what is basically some sort of rough loose shale safely, felling downhill would mean big lumps of timber straddling the cut at worst, at best sat on a narrow muddy towpath, it would take a lot of boats to shift it if it could be loaded.

 

The difficulty of processing and removing from the towpath suggests to me extraction uphill in some way would be best, I suppose a skyline would be an option and that would suggest a forestry contractor more than an arborist.

 

it would be an interesting job to plan if not actually do ;)

 

Just now, David Mack said:

Some tears ago I got into conversation with a couple of English Heritage chaps who were working up ladders trimming a high hedge at a country house. One of them commented that volunteers were useful for standing in the house, talking to visitors and ensuring that nobody touched things they weren't supposed to. But he said the ones who come to help out in the gardens turn up at 10.00, then sit down in the hut for a cup of tea and a chat, eventually get out and do maybe an hours weeding before breaking for a two hour lunch, stop again mid afternoon for more tea, and go home at 4.00!

I honestly wouldn't have a major problem with that

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34 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

No stress or offence taken in any way :)

 

The extraction would be the real issue, aside from actually standing of what is basically some sort of rough loose shale safely, felling downhill would mean big lumps of timber straddling the cut at worst, at best sat on a narrow muddy towpath, it would take a lot of boats to shift it if it could be loaded.

 

The difficulty of processing and removing from the towpath suggests to me extraction uphill in some way would be best, I suppose a skyline would be an option and that would suggest a forestry contractor more than an arborist.

 

it would be an interesting job to plan if not actually do ;)

 

I honestly wouldn't have a major problem with that

It would be good to see a long train of joeys and a tug taking it all away.

 

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