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Alternator/battery/other shenanigans... any ideas please? 


Ewan123

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I can't see a warning lamp on the second diagram so I think it is suspect. The wire running to what is labeled as B+ on the controller would act as a sense wire but I am less happy about the fuse because that could easily cause volt drop on the sense wire if it is loose or corrodes, however not much current should flow in that wire so it may not be as bad as one may think.

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1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Well therein lies the problem obviously. The mystery "REMOTE SENSE" device omitted from the diagram is busted. 

 

The  remote sense, whatever that is, would not have much operationally to do with the sensing. If you trace from the battery pos to the controller you will see it has a direct path, bypassing that remote sense  cable.

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The engine stop button often suffers from damp corroding it, especially as yours seems to have been intermittent before failing.

 

Try measuring it's resistance when pressing it in and/or shorting it out with a bit of wire to see if the engine stops then.

 

 

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9 hours ago, cuthound said:

The engine stop button often suffers from damp corroding it, especially as yours seems to have been intermittent before failing.

 

Try measuring it's resistance when pressing it in and/or shorting it out with a bit of wire to see if the engine stops then.

 

 

On the plus side, after having another go at the multi plug (one point to @Tracy D'arth) the Stop button is now working perfectly, better than it has for a while! I did give the contacts on the switch a good scrub first though which I'm sure helped as they were mostly blackened.

 

No progress on the alternator/battery situation though, or the inverter control panel (I think I need to hunt again for a fuse I might have missed).

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22 hours ago, MtB said:

 

There isn't one according to the diagram.

 

I'm now wondering where the diagram came from. Dear OP, did you draw it yourself for the purposes of this thread or did it come with the boat? 

 

The diagram came with the boat - I realise I'm taking a leap of faith in hoping that a c. 20 year old boat's electrics still resemble an apparently original diagram, but aside from the addition of solar, everything does appear to be of a fairly similar vintage to the boat...

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1 hour ago, Ewan123 said:

The diagram came with the boat - I realise I'm taking a leap of faith in hoping that a c. 20 year old boat's electrics still resemble an apparently original diagram, but aside from the addition of solar, everything does appear to be of a fairly similar vintage to the boat...

 

So assuming noting has changed (big assumption!), it looks as though you have some sort external alternator controller not included in the circuit diagram. The fault probably lies there. It is regulating the alternator voltage higher and higher probably (as others have already said) because of a poor connection in the sensing cable.

 

Find the sensing cable and measure the voltage on it at the alternator controller end, where it connects to the controller. If the voltage on the terminal is up at 15+, the same as the battery, then the controller is goosed or needs adjusting somehow. If it is down at 14.4Vdc, then the cable is goosed. 

 

What controller is it?

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20 hours ago, MtB said:

 

So assuming noting has changed (big assumption!), it looks as though you have some sort external alternator controller not included in the circuit diagram. The fault probably lies there. It is regulating the alternator voltage higher and higher probably (as others have already said) because of a poor connection in the sensing cable.

 

Find the sensing cable and measure the voltage on it at the alternator controller end, where it connects to the controller. If the voltage on the terminal is up at 15+, the same as the battery, then the controller is goosed or needs adjusting somehow. If it is down at 14.4Vdc, then the cable is goosed. 

 

What controller is it?

 

I think we're getting somewhere, but I think  I'm still ignorant of what job the various devices perform.

 

I double checked a set of fuses and had originally missed a tiny break in a 3A fuse (either labeled as 'REMOTE 3A' or 'AUX CHARGE' depending which way one reattached the bust cover - REMOTE 3A matches though).

 

20220214_134320.jpg.1f3eae82815cbd870d32349bdcf4197d.jpg

 

With that replaced, the inverter/charger control panel works again 👍 so presumably something has indeed gone wrong with the remote sense.

 

I also found another blown fuse in the Sterling box (is this a controller?) as below which was displaying Red for 'High battery voltage trip.'

 

20220214_150412.jpg.d535f91993df7257ee9e564bbaa4d94c.jpg

 

With that replaced, the lights now display thus (the bottom is yellow for 'open lead acid' in real life). Not sure what the Timer is about.

 

EDIT: I couldn't find anywhere to get my multimeter probes on the cable going to the controller. I did measure across that fuse inside the controller... is that helpful??...

 

* Engine off: Battery 12.8V/  Controller 12.8V

* Engine idling: Battery 14.7V/ Controller variable 2.5-5V

* Engine revved up: Battery variable 15-16+V/ Controller variable 15-16V 

 

(Variable readings are jumping up and down, when revved up the variation is audible in the revs) 

 

The main problem of the alternator/battery voltage is still occurring.

 

20220214_152145.jpg.0ca4da1fce2b52c8bf8e8b187fdbc5f3.jpg

 

... which also leads me to wonder whether it's the right setting for my battery, I'm struggling to work out exactly which battery type it is.

 

20220214_143606.jpg.c19801712a02e7ecc9881de8406c1881.jpg

 

Finally, here's a selection of other electrical things including our inverter/charger (which I think shouldn't be involved in this really..?) and a Vetus Split Diode.

 

20220214_095304.jpg.b920e131acb6694c95f00b871c4458da.jpg20220212_204032.jpg.8a59977d7021d166ba4367a44f35d36c.jpg

Edited by Ewan123
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You have lead acid batteries so dip switch #1 should be up, i.e. off.

 

The Sterling controller will take care of charging currents providing the fuses stay intact! It will go from low rate then to high rate to float after you have been running a good length of time. The lights are logical to tell you where you are up to. It should bring the charge voltage up to 14.8v on that battery type setting.

 

You will be better off changing the diode splitter to a Voltage Sensitive Relay or even just a split charge relay as the diode loses 0.6 V of the charge voltage.

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57 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You have lead acid batteries so dip switch #1 should be up, i.e. off.

 

Great, that's OK then 👌 (the pic might be deceptive).

 

55 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The Sterling controller will take care of charging currents providing the fuses stay intact! It will go from low rate then to high rate to float after you have been running a good length of time. The lights are logical to tell you where you are up to. It should bring the charge voltage up to 14.8v on that battery type setting.

 

I see, glad I understand its job now! Thanks. Not that the lights will be much use to me most days, down in the depths of the engine bay.

 

55 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You have lead acid batteries so dip switch #1 should be up, i.e. off.

 

The Sterling controller will take care of charging currents providing the fuses stay intact! It will go from low rate then to high rate to float after you have been running a good length of time. The lights are logical to tell you where you are up to. It should bring the charge voltage up to 14.8v on that battery type setting.

 

You will be better off changing the diode splitter to a Voltage Sensitive Relay or even just a split charge relay as the diode loses 0.6 V of the charge voltage.

 

Unless it's likely the root of my problems today, I'll add that to the "When I've got spare money" list 😀. Appreciated tip nonetheless. 

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Could the variable readings be caused by worn brushes making intermittent contact. Even it it is so I can't work out why the voltage should be so high unless the Sterling is hunting when controlling the voltage.

 

Do as Tract says fit a VSR and I will add, ditch the controller. It was probably only fitted to hide the diode volt drop.

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14 hours ago, Eeyore said:

Follow the red wire, there will be a connector of some sort. Disconnecting reverts the regulator back to standard. If the voltage is then stable the fault is probably the sterling box.

89F46E08-65B6-4840-99C3-5E19FDEDED6A.jpeg

 

Just to check, that's the Starboard alternator which appears to be behaving normally when the Port is disconnected - still worth trying?

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That is why, in my view, it is far easier to refer to Engine alternator and domestic alternator, altering diagrams if need be. I am not going back to look at the diagrams again.

 

Neither diagram showed any link between the two systems apart from, I assume, the common negative so I can't work out how one alternator can affect the other.

 

Doing as Eeyore say is  a good way of testing the controller unless someone has disconnected that alternator's own internal regulator.

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Right, I think we're there!

 

1)

On 14/02/2022 at 20:51, Eeyore said:

Follow the red wire, there will be a connector of some sort. Disconnecting reverts the regulator back to standard. If the voltage is then stable the fault is probably the sterling box.

89F46E08-65B6-4840-99C3-5E19FDEDED6A.jpeg

 

In first trying to disconnect it, I thought I needed to take the regulator off (didn't notice the spade connection just along the wire). That obviously showed me it wasn't the way to disconnect it, but in the process I learned what alternator brushes look like (and ones that are part of a well-behaved alternator at that...). I reinstalled the regulator and disconnected at the spade connection to actually test. Did this, no effect on anything - took that to mean the controller wasn't responsible as suggested.

 

2) Having found out what brushes look like (not like this🪥) and that they're easy to access look at (well, the naughty alternator is much more cramped but still possible) I figured I'd check the others. They did look a bit wonky/uneven as below. Refitted it anyway, tried testing... the alternator now didn't do any charging at all, which got me excited/worried at the same time. 

 

20220219_105010_1.jpg.1e431679acf0f726b715a1e532b48e8f.jpg20220219_105045_1.jpg.3e513c07d28e7d7e364b5586fa3eefae.jpg

 

3)

Took it apart again, tried to be more careful with reinstalling the regulator this time and WOOHOO! Everything back to normal! Starter battery charging at about 14.5V, not that slowly creeping 13+, no bouncing up and down, revs normal.

 

On 14/02/2022 at 18:15, Tony Brooks said:

Could the variable readings be caused by worn brushes making intermittent contact. Even it it is so I can't work out why the voltage should be so high unless the Sterling is hunting when controlling the voltage.

 

Do as Tract says fit a VSR and I will add, ditch the controller. It was probably only fitted to hide the diode volt drop.

 

I'm inclined to say that's it.

 

Thank you very much everyone for your contributions - aside from now knowing the problem, I've learnt more about what systems I have in the process.

 

 

Which leads me to two(ish) more questions now:

 

a) Is it easy for a largely clueless amateur to replace brushes (with only a socket wrench and screwdriver as tools)? I'm assuming my waggling-fix won't last that long.

 

b) I now have two starter batteries, one of which has been undercharged for a while and ended up flat, but is currently sitting at 12.5V after being disconnected from everything for a few days. Is it worth me trying to charge it up to see whether it has life left/can I do that by just attaching it to the new connected battery with jump leads or switch leads from new to old while the engine is running?

Edited by Ewan123
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33 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

Right, I think we're there!

 

1)

 

In first trying to disconnect it, I thought I needed to take the regulator off (didn't notice the spade connection just along the wire). That obviously showed me it wasn't the way to disconnect it, but in the process I learned what alternator brushes look like (and ones that are part of a well-behaved alternator at that...). I reinstalled the regulator and disconnected at the spade connection to actually test. Did this, no effect on anything - took that to mean the controller wasn't responsible as suggested.

 

2) Having found out what brushes look like (not like this🪥) and that they're easy to access look at (well, the naughty alternator is much more cramped but still possible) I figured I'd check the others. They did look a bit wonky/uneven as below. Refitted it anyway, tried testing... the alternator now didn't do any charging at all, which got me excited/worried at the same time. 

 

20220219_105010_1.jpg.1e431679acf0f726b715a1e532b48e8f.jpg20220219_105045_1.jpg.3e513c07d28e7d7e364b5586fa3eefae.jpg

 

3)

Took it apart again, tried to be more careful with reinstalling the regulator this time and WOOHOO! Everything back to normal! Starter battery charging at about 14.5V, not that slowly creeping 13+, no bouncing up and down, revs normal.

 

 

I'm inclined to say that's it.

 

Thank you very much everyone for your contributions - aside from now knowing the problem, I've learnt more about what systems I have in the process.

 

 

Which leads me to two(ish) more questions now:

 

a) Is it easy for a largely clueless amateur to replace brushes (with only a socket wrench and screwdriver as tools)? I'm assuming my waggling-fix won't last that long.

 

b) I now have two starter batteries, one of which has been undercharged for a while and ended up flat, but is currently sitting at 12.5V after being disconnected from everything for a few days. Is it worth me trying to charge it up to see whether it has life left/can I do that by just attaching it to the new connected battery with jump leads or switch leads from new to old while the engine is running?

Looking at the brushes I think that you have a badly scored slip ring in the alternator. Time to take it to a specialist and get it rebuilt?

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13 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Looking at the brushes I think that you have a badly scored slip ring in the alternator. Time to take it to a specialist and get it rebuilt?

Ah yes, of course it's not as simple as I hoped 😅. It was hard to clearly see the state of it, I don't suppose this pic is very informative? Best view I could get.

 

20220219_105115_1.jpg.e640842adfd230d43bedce3f840b6e55.jpg

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53 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

Is it worth me trying to charge it up to see whether it has life left/can I do that by just attaching it to the new connected battery with jump leads or switch leads from new to old while the engine is running?

Don't disconnect the battery while the engine is running. It's a sure fire way to wreck an alternator's electronics.

Edited by David Mack
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