Immersion heater switch issue

[RickS]

Yet another question from me I'm afraid.

Immersion heater switch light flickering and nasty white sparks appearing when the switch is flicked so bought a new one.

Pretty much replacing like for like - live and neutral from the supply (mains) and live and neutral to the load. Earth from supply and load into common.

The neon light was already wired across the supply - the supply was two blacks and a red - solid core, whilst the load was the usual brown, blue and green/yellow,

Wired up as before, reconnected the supply and the neon light is on all the time, irrespective of what position the switch is in.

Nothing has tripped.

What am I doing wrong please? Is the immersion on all the time whether it is witched on or off?

Thanks

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by RickS

[PaulJ]

Probably have the feed wired into the load terminals and vice versa. Switch will still work though..

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Can you provide a photo of your wiring of the switch please? Also, if possible, a link to the model of switch you've used?

 

[nicknorman]

The neon needs to be across the load, not the supply. Since the supply is always on, if the neon is across the supply it will always be On! The switch will still be switching, but obviously having the neon where you do is unhelpful.

Edited February 6, 2022 by nicknorman

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, RickS said:

The neon light was already wired across the supply -

If the neon is wired across the supply then it will be on whenever you have a mains/generator/inverter supply. You want it connected across the switch output side.

[RickS]

11 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Can you provide a photo of your wiring of the switch please? Also, if possible, a link to the model of switch you've used?

 

Thanks Jen and Paul. I attach photos of old and new switch. I think you are right Paul and i have wired the load and feed round the wrong way. What an absolute arse!

Because the load (blue / brown etc) was at the top of the old switch next to the light, I have wired up the new one the same way as the photo shows.

The wires feeding the light are going from the feed (black / red) have the feed wires connected to them (which is how the old switch was wired but without the light wires).

so the light will be permanently on but the switch still works - presumably the other way, off for on etc.

I have disconnected the circuit breaker at the moment because i was worried I had done something dangerous. No relevant instructions with the switch that I could see so just assumed load at the top of the new one. Should have realised about the light wires - does that sound like an accurate assessment ? 

Honestly, you couldn't make this stuff up!

 

20 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The neon needs to be across the load, not the supply. Since the supply is always on, if the neon is across the supply it will always be On! The switch will still be switching, but obviously having the neon where you do is unhelpful.

 

19 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If the neon is wired across the supply then it will be on whenever you have a mains/generator/inverter supply. You want it connected across the switch output side.

David, nicknorman - yes, I think you are right, as are Jen and Paul. It all seemed so obvious, just 180 degrees different from the old one! It does seem obvious tat the light should be wired to the load rather than the feed - i just went with old wiring.

[Alan de Enfield]

55 minutes ago, RickS said:

The neon light was already wired across the supply - the supply was two blacks and a red - solid core

 

Who wired the boat up ?

Was it the manufacturer or was it a DIY fit-out ?

 

That sounds like domestic wiring and with solid conductors should not be used on a boat (in fact it is specifically noted in the EN specs for boat wiring that flexible cable MUST be used)

[David Mack]

47 minutes ago, RickS said:

 

The top terminals labelled L1 and N1 are the input and the bottom ones, labelled L2 and N2, are the output. So you have it wired the wrong way round.

[David Mack]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That sounds like domestic wiring and with solid conductors should not be used on a boat (in fact it is specifically noted in the EN specs for boat wiring that flexible cable MUST be used)

It is a bit alarming to see two black conductors, one connected to a negative terminal and one to an earth terminal. I assume the one connected to earth is just a bit of sleeving over the bare copper wire of the twin and earth supply cable. As Alan notes that domestic twin and earth shouldn't be there, but if you are going to leave it, please replace the black sleeving on the earth wire with green and yellow.

[jonathanA]

I'm surprised no one has picked up on thecapparent two neutrals  (black) and one live (red) that's an very unusual arrangement. Please check that some numpty hasn't sleeved the bare earth conductor black. 

 

ETA crossed with David mack and I hadn't scrolled pic down enough to see it was the eth terminal for second black . 

Edited February 6, 2022 by jonathanA
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[Slim]

Is the cable used for the supply to the immersion heater (load) heat resistant? Doesn't look it to me. The brown cable in particular looks to be solid  

[Jen-in-Wellies]

The multi strand cable should really have bootlace ferrules on them too.

[Slim]

18 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The multi strand cable should really have bootlace ferrules on them too.

I was leaving that one to A de L

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, Slim said:

I was leaving that one to A de L

 

It gets a bit monotonous keep mentioning non-compliance,  just one at a time every now and again drip ........drip ..........drip.

Hopefully, eventually, folks building boats will realise that what they are doing is wrong.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The multi strand cable should really have bootlace ferrules on them too.

 

This actually came up on the survey when we bought our boat (it didn't have them) BUT not on our buyers survey when we sold it. (Or if it did it wasnt raised with me).

 

We didnt insist on them being fitted as there was some discussion about was it compulsory or a recommendation. 

 

I dont think back in 2009 when the boat was built it was compulsory nor was it in 2015 when we sold it.

 

I suspect it may be now though.

 

Open to correction on this.

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, The Happy Nomad said:

We didnt insist on them being fitted as there was some discussion about was it compulsory or a recommendation. 

 

I dont think back in 2009 when the boat was built it was compulsory nor was it in 2015 when we sold it.

 

 

If you me retro fitting to sell its not compulsory now.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If you me retro fitting to sell its not compulsory now.

 

No sorry, I meant on new installs. 

[RickS]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Who wired the boat up ?

Was it the manufacturer or was it a DIY fit-out ?

 

That sounds like domestic wiring and with solid conductors should not be used on a boat (in fact it is specifically noted in the EN specs for boat wiring that flexible cable MUST be used)

I have no idea who did the wiring Alan. I am finding that every time I look at the electrics (trying to deal with it a bit at a time) even to my non-electrician's eyes it looks like a dog's dinner. That was going to be my next question about solid core cable. I didn't think it was right, on a boat or anywhere else. At the very least it seems very dated. It's also a bugger to wire anything up with as it's very stiff.

I think I am getting to the point where I am going to get a proper electrician in to rewire the whole boat as I don't know what i'm going to find next.

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

The top terminals labelled L1 and N1 are the input and the bottom ones, labelled L2 and N2, are the output. So you have it wired the wrong way round.

Thanks David. Yes, I was getting that impression from what people have said - and thinking about it some more.

Rewired the correct way round and it all works as it should

[Guest]

Just now, RickS said:

I have no idea who did the wiring Alan. I am finding that every time I look at the electrics (trying to deal with it a bit at a time) even to my non-electrician's eyes it looks like a dog's dinner. That was going to be my next question about solid core cable. I didn't think it was right, on a boat or anywhere else. At the very least it seems very dated. It's also a bugger to wire anything up with as it's very stiff.

I think I am getting to the point where I am going to get a proper electrician in to rewire the whole boat as I don't know what i'm going to find next.

 

Solid core is normally OK in domestic settings but not in anything subject to stress and vibration eg boats, caravans and motorhomes/camper vans.

[RickS]

57 minutes ago, Slim said:

Is the cable used for the supply to the immersion heater (load) heat resistant? Doesn't look it to me. The brown cable in particular looks to be solid  

no idea about the heat resistance but the brown lead is multi-strand cable. Definitely not solid cable.

I, too, was not happy about two black cables and a red. I wired the black cable that was in the original neutral back into the neutral and the other into the earth connection. I don't think it's black sleeving over solid copper, I think it's a black cable (if that makes sense) 

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

No sorry, I meant on new installs. 

 

It has been mandatory since 1998.

Not to do so means non-compliance with the RCD.

Another failure to add to the ever growing number of examples of short-cuts by builders, fraudulently signing the certificate to say it complies.

[David Mack]

39 minutes ago, RickS said:

I don't think it's black sleeving over solid copper, I think it's a black cable (if that makes sense) 

That would be surprising. I'm not at all sure you can even get single strand cable with two black cores and one red core and no earth conductor, but if you can get it it would be a hell of a lot harder to find then the standard red insulated / bare copper / black insulated cable which was standard for domestic installations before the colours changed to brown and blue.

 

Most likely it is standard twin and earth, with the black sheathing on the earth wire pushed up inside the grey outer sheath.

 

Change it to yellow/green, or at least wrap it in yellow/green insulating tape.

Edited February 6, 2022 by David Mack

[RickS]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

That would be surprising. I'm not at all sure you can even get single strand cable with two black cores and one red core and no earth conductor, but if you can get it it would be a hell of a lot harder to find then the standard red insulated / bare copper / black insulated cable which was standard for domestic installations before the colours changed to brown and blue.

 

Most likely it is standard twin and earth, with the black sheathing on the earth wire pushed up inside the grey outer sheath.

 

Change it to yellow/green, or at least wrap it in yellow/green insulating tape.

I bow to your greater knowledge. I think rewiring the boat is certainly going to make life a lot easier - which means getting someone else to do it as that's beyond what I feel competent doing. Normally that wouldn't stop me trying something new - best way to learn - but not with electrics, or indeed anything that can kill me or sink the boat!

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

 Most likely it is standard twin and earth, with the black sheathing on the earth wire pushed up inside the grey outer sheath.

 

And its the old red/black so probably been there some time.

"In March 2006, the United Kingdom government made an amendment to British Standard BS 7671 (Requirements for Electrical Installations), as a result, the change of colour coding for electric cables was considered one of the most significant changes for the electrical industry in modern history."

[nicknorman]

18 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And its the old red/black so probably been there some time.

"In March 2006, the United Kingdom government made an amendment to British Standard BS 7671 (Requirements for Electrical Installations), as a result, the change of colour coding for electric cables was considered one of the most significant changes for the electrical industry in modern history."

… which meant that after march 2006, there was a lot of red and black cable going cheap!