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Lithium hybrid set up help required


luggsy

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12 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

If you want to see efficient decision-making, go to China.

 

I was there about the time of the Foxconn suicides scandal when workers were jumping from the roof of the massive Foxconn factory/compound in Shenzhen where 300,000 people work (and mostly live), and the short-term answer was to put nets up. A large part of the cause of worker unhappiness was that their families were a thousand miles away in the remote provinces so they never got to see them. Solution : build factories there and move the workers closer to home.

 

The first one -- for 60,000 workers IIRC -- was built, up and running within 6 months. I'm pretty sure little considerations like consultation with locals, planning permission, environmental impact assessments and so on played absolutely no part in the process -- the CCP said "this will happen" and it did.

 

Do you really think this would work -- or even be possible -- anywhere in the West with a democratic government and laws?

 

Like I said, it's all fine just so long as you're not one of the frogs whose pond/swamp is being drained... 😉

 

Apple don't seem to highlight this in its advertising campaigns.

 

I'm sure its the same with other tech products. And we all know our lovely solar panels come from slave labour camps.

 

Long Live Cheap Junk.

 

 

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4 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Very true. But the more levels of protection you have built in, perhaps the less likely of a problem and resulting insurance claim occurring. Lots of people seem to be taking a lithium battery, dropping it in parallel with a lead acid, sometimes separated by a long length of too small, poorly fused cable and then relying on a BMS to offer protection.

 

There were many posts on this in the early days where people on here were building systems with various fail safes and levels of protection.

I hope everyone has told their insurance companies they have solar panels,  There is quite a bit of documentation about roof fires from having solar panels on them.

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5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I hope everyone has told their insurance companies they have solar panels,  There is quite a bit of documentation about roof fires from having solar panels on them.

I would hope so too. I should imagine there are many solar installs with the same current carrying capability and undersized/fused cables as can be obtained from a lithium battery install. Its an uncannily similar example.

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  • 1 month later...
2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

@nicknorman just read your letter in NABO News and the reply about not mixing with conventional batteries, its going to be an uphill run.

And the BSS are just getting togged up to join in the fun/run. Somewhat late to the party, they have recently published a (restricted) consultative document and hybrid installations (and their problems) are on their radar.

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1 minute ago, Up-Side-Down said:

And the BSS are just getting togged up to join in the fun/run. Somewhat late to the party, they have recently published a (restricted) consultative document and hybrid installations (and their problems) are on their radar.

The reply was from the person who sits on the BSS Technical Committee

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7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

No sorry. I don't have permission to do that, someone else may, or maybe only Nick and I are members on here.

I didn't mean a copy or cut and paste; a short summary ( a few lines) wouldn't infringe any copyright.

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Well I think I can post my letter:

 

The devil in the lithium detail
I refer to the latest NABO News item about lithium batteries. Sorry but I think referring to lithium ion batteries generically is a big mistake. Yes the item does hint that there are different lithium chemistries but it’s a bit subtle! The bottom line is that LiFePO4 batteries are as safe as lead acid, or safer. LiFePO4 is extremely difficult to set on fire either by overcharging or by physical damage, and even in that highly unlikely event it can easily be extinguished. It doesn’t explode and spray hot sulphuric acid around unlike lead acid!
By comparison lithium cobalt oxide technologies are quite unstable, easily set alight and continue to burn even when under water (it makes its own oxygen for combustion!)
So any talk about Li batteries needs to specify the chemistry, otherwise it is a bit like talking about “fossil fuels” without distinguishing between diesel, petrol or LPG.
An area of concern is second hand batteries ex electric vehicles. If they are LiFePO4 then fine. If they are some higher energy density technology, then be afraid! The devil is in the detail and awareness perhaps needs to be raised on these differences.
Full disclosure: I have 600Ah of LiFePO4 batteries with home grown BMS and alternator controller. The batteries are fantastic!
Nick Norman

 

The reply didn’t seem to indicate that he had got my point.

Edited by nicknorman
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7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Well I think I can post my letter:

 

The devil in the lithium detail
I refer to the latest NABO News item about lithium batteries. Sorry but I think referring to lithium ion batteries generically is a big mistake. Yes the item does hint that there are different lithium chemistries but it’s a bit subtle! The bottom line is that LiFePO4 batteries are as safe as lead acid, or safer. LiFePO4 is extremely difficult to set on fire either by overcharging or by physical damage, and even in that highly unlikely event it can easily be extinguished. It doesn’t explode and spray hot sulphuric acid around unlike lead acid!
By comparison lithium cobalt oxide technologies are quite unstable, easily set alight and continue to burn even when under water (it makes its own oxygen for combustion!)
So any talk about Li batteries needs to specify the chemistry, otherwise it is a bit like talking about “fossil fuels” without distinguishing between diesel, petrol or LPG.
An area of concern is second hand batteries ex electric vehicles. If they are LiFePO4 then fine. If they are some higher energy density technology, then be afraid! The devil is in the detail and awareness perhaps needs to be raised on these differences.
Full disclosure: I have 600Ah of LiFePO4 batteries with home grown BMS and alternator controller. The batteries are fantastic!
Nick Norman

 

The reply didn’t seem to indicate that he had got my point.

And a lot of articles (and posters) also don't get the point, as can be seen every time the subjects of "lithium battery fires" or "re-using ex-EV batteries" come up... 😞

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

@nicknorman just read your letter in NABO News and the reply about not mixing with conventional batteries, its going to be an uphill run.


Yes I suspect so! Just got a new BSS in November (with Li batteries in situ) so at least I will get another 4 years without hassle! I’m not sure what the objection to mixing Li with “older, more conventional batteries” is. It’s not an elegant way of doing it but I don’t think it’s dangerous.

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8 hours ago, nicknorman said:


Yes I suspect so! Just got a new BSS in November (with Li batteries in situ) so at least I will get another 4 years without hassle! I’m not sure what the objection to mixing Li with “older, more conventional batteries” is. It’s not an elegant way of doing it but I don’t think it’s dangerous.

Same here. I was a bit worried the examiner wouldn't like my install, but he said there was nothing in the manual he could fail it on. 

 

I suspect the manual will have changed in four years time though. 

 

Not quite sure how the BSS become aware of these things, but it took them a ridiculous amount of time to introduce the CO alarm requirement. 

Edited by rusty69
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4 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Same here. I was a bit worried the examiner wouldn't like my install, but he said there was nothing in the manual he could fail it on. 

 

I suspect the manual will have changed in four years time though. 

 

Not quite sure how the BSS become aware of these things, but it took them a ridiculous amount of time to introduce the CO alarm requirement. 


It took them a long time to introduce the CO alarm requirements because protecting a private boat’s occupants is not within the remit of the BSS, it is supposed to be about protecting 3rd parties. They had to think up some weasel words to make it seem as though the new requirement was within their remit, even though it obviously wasn’t. Not that I object to CO alarms of course, we had one for years before they became mandatory. But still, regulatory mission creep is a bad thing.

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On 13/12/2022 at 11:04, IanD said:

Does being in a lock count as "when underway"? An interesting issue for solo boaters if it does, and they cill the boat and it sinks while they're working the lock (and therefore not "on board")... 😞

 

I think it would be quite proper to argue that for a motorised boat to be under way the 'drive' must be engaged. Doubtless there are exceptions but every single hander I've ever encountered has disengaged the drive on entering a lock before leaving the boat. 

Remote control systems, however...

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30 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

 

I think it would be quite proper to argue that for a motorised boat to be under way the 'drive' must be engaged. Doubtless there are exceptions but every single hander I've ever encountered has disengaged the drive on entering a lock before leaving the boat. 

Remote control systems, however...

 

And as you say, there are plenty of us single handers who put the boat in ahead whilst off the boat and filling the lock, so it rides up the gate. This stops the turbulence from drawing the boat backwards to hit the sill while we are away from the helm.

 

 

 

Edited by MtB
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30 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And as you say, there are plenty of us single handers who put the boat in ahead whilst off the boat and filling the lock, so it rides up the gate. This stops the turbulence from drawing the boat backwards to hit the sill while we are away from the helm.

 

 

 

Surly when filling up, the Cill would be at the bow and not the helm, I keep it in tick over sometimes mainly on narrow locks.

 

Edited by PD1964
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On 09/02/2023 at 11:03, nicknorman said:


It took them a long time to introduce the CO alarm requirements because protecting a private boat’s occupants is not within the remit of the BSS, it is supposed to be about protecting 3rd parties. They had to think up some weasel words to make it seem as though the new requirement was within their remit, even though it obviously wasn’t. Not that I object to CO alarms of course, we had one for years before they became mandatory. But still, regulatory mission creep is a bad thing.

Surely an alarm will protect a visitor? They are a 3rd party arnt they?

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12 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Surely an alarm will protect a visitor? They are a 3rd party arnt they?

 

The BSS justification (after a consultation period) was that when CO is produced on the boat, it can drift out of the window and get 'sucked into' a boat moored in front / behind thus affecting the 3rd party on the 'second' boat.

 

This is their reasoning as they cannot implement safety measures for the owner of the boat - only things that stop an adjacent boat, passersby ,or C&RT workers from Fire, Smoke, Gas or explosion.

 

Edit to add :

 

I jest not - this explanation can be found on the BSS website.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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