Wharf At Wincham T & M.

[Chris Lowe]

Does anyone know about this small wharf near Wincham Wharf on the T & M, a tramway appears to go under it on the old OS maps.

 

The side bridge and small basin is still there, & the CRT map names it as Lostock Basin Bridge.

 

6inch map

 

25inch map

Edited January 27, 2022 by buccaneer66

[Heartland]

When researching the Trent and Mersey canal book, I looked at the Lostock Works which were salt works owned respectively by Bowman, Thompson and Co, Brunner Mond and ICI Mond Division. they had both standard gauge and narrow gauge locomotives and a standard gauge system that linked the Bleach and Alkali Works at Lostock with the Cheshire Lines Committee lines. The railway that passed under the canal went onto Bonners Green Works and joined the CLC west of Lostock Gralam Station. So it would have been standard gauge.

 

The main Lostock Alkali Works were south of the wharf and at one time had extensive sidings by the canal as this 1908 o/s shows

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Heartland

[Chris Lowe]

29 minutes ago, Heartland said:

The railway that passed under the canal went onto Bonners Green Works and joined the CLC west of Lostock Gralam Station. So it would have been standard gauge.

 

I thought I was seeing things, so it actually did go under the wharf

[Heartland]

I gather this was done during North Staffordshire Railway times and there is probably a note in their records, whether it was locomotive worked is another item to be resolved.

[Chris Lowe]

Is your book still available?

[Derek R.]

And here it is in 2019

 

https://tinyurl.com/rhp5mxjz

[Heartland]

My Trent & Mersey Book was published last year it was reviewed in the RCHS Journal, Chris

[Chris Lowe]

I've got a stack of those I haven't read yet, but I've got copy of the book on order.

[AndrewIC]

Looking at that 25” map, the line to the west of the canal appears to be raised on an embankment, and runs over the small arm (the outline of which can still be seen on Google earth), and stops short of the side bridge. The line to the east doesn’t line up with it, and also appears to be on elevated land. I went for a drive-by today, and although the industrial landscape has changed dramatically, it’s difficult to see how a railway could have run under the canal. I wonder if this was an elevated loading arrangement over the arm for dropping product into boats?

[David Mack]

I wondered that too. If you were going to tunnel a railway under the canal, why would you do it at the precise point where there is a canal arm?

[matty40s]

5 hours ago, David Mack said:

I wondered that too. If you were going to tunnel a railway under the canal, why would you do it at the precise point where there is a canal arm?

Fill the tank?

[Chris Lowe]

It does seem an odd thing to do.

[Derek R.]

It is noticeable that the two 'lines' of the railway do not line up and in most cases cartographers are inclined to be accurate in their drawing up of maps. There is also the thought that if the railway went under the basin and canal, where is the cutting on either side? As the Western side is clarly on an embankment and it lines up perfectly with the basin, was there an overhead dropping gantry for hoppers to discharge into boats?

Edited February 2, 2022 by Derek R.

[Heartland]

The Alkali Works were a later development for this area, with Lostock Works commenced in 1891

The Cheshire Tithe shows a different view 

Lining up the view of the canal with the bend in the road, the properties are chiefly agricultural although there was a coal wharf beside the canal close to the narrows

The aqueduct or culvert over the Wade Brook was south of the Coal Wharf

The wharf land north of the coal wharf later became a Bone Mill which produced agricultural manures.

 

Whether the railways did or did not join up remains an issue to be proved one way or the other.

The Bowman Thompson Works had been created for the limited company and this in turn was taken over by Brunner Mond in 1900 following a share reduction. Bowman Thompson had created the Lostock Works which included an Alkali Works and a Bleach Works. Brunner Mond reconstructed the works and this might have influenced the track arrangement leading up to the basin and that work was completed in 1907.. a year before the o/s/

 

It also remains to be seen where the Davis's Chlorine Processing Co Ltd, which was constructed in 1892/3, had any connection with this track arrangement.

 

[Heartland]

And just to add to the mention of Davis they, that is Alfred Roland Davis and George Edward Davis, trading as Davis Brothers, appear to have set up the Bonners Green Works in 1891 and also had premises in Manchester. Their Lostock works was opposite the Bone Works  in Griffiths Road, now the A530 and became the Davis's Chlorine Process Co Ltd. Where chlorine for bleaching powder was made by initially their patent process. There was considerable opposition with the local authority concerning the manufacturing process making foul gases such as hydrogen sulphide and it seems there was consideration to adopt another type of process to make chlorine products which were equally objected to. A member of the local board was part owner of the bone works, which emitted objectional smells, but that seemed to be allowed !

 

Their rail served chemical works shows track running through their premises as far as Griffith Road. In  1893 they applied to reconstruct the road between their works and the Trent & Mersey Canal and this was approved by the local highways board, subject to solicitors agreements and their surveyors approval. As the 1897 ordnance survey only shows the track as far as the road whether the crossing was made is a matter to be determined.

 

There is no apparent link with the two chemical firms at Lostock as companies and whilst the Lostock Works went to Brunner Mond in 1900, there is so far no traceable fate for the Davis Chlorine Works which was evidently disused by 1908.

 

George Davis, the elder Brother, died at West Dulwich in 1907, An unmarried Alfred Roland died at Sunbury on Thames in 1938

 

And whilst the railway tracks seem to line up on opposite side of the Trent & Mersey Canal, if there was a intention for a junction for mutual interest, so far there is no indication of that fact and may be if production ceased at the Bonners Green Works such a link for mutual interest could have been a bridge rather than a tunnel. As to the Bowman Thompson section that section can only be speculative possible for coal transport and if the Davis line reached a Trent and Mersey wharf would that have been for coal?

 

Bowman, Thompson records are at Chester Records Office, so for the interested there may be research options there 

 

[Chris Lowe]

I wonder if Historic england have any very early aerial photos in the Swindon archive

[Heartland]

A request to the Industrial Railway Society website has revealed that there was a narrow gauge line that passed from the Bowman Thompson side and basin under the Trent and Mersey Canal to the Bonners Hill works belonging to David and mentions this was shown on an 1898 ordnance survey, which presumably is the 25 inch map not available on the NLS site.

 

There is a related question to this mention and that is was there an aqueduct provided accomodation for field access to the farm estate from the road and the dimensions of that access was limited, but could be used for a tramway. It would also be possible that haulage was by horse as so far no record of a narrow gauge locomotive has been found related to this group of works. 

[Chris Lowe]

Interesting I'm glad that I raised this one.

 

Your book has arrived Ray so I have plenty of reading to do.

[StephenA]

3 hours ago, Heartland said:

A request to the Industrial Railway Society website has revealed that there was a narrow gauge line that passed from the Bowman Thompson side and basin under the Trent and Mersey Canal to the Bonners Hill works belonging to David and mentions this was shown on an 1898 ordnance survey, which presumably is the 25 inch map not available on the NLS site.

 

There is a related question to this mention and that is was there an aqueduct provided accomodation for field access to the farm estate from the road and the dimensions of that access was limited, but could be used for a tramway. It would also be possible that haulage was by horse as so far no record of a narrow gauge locomotive has been found related to this group of works. 

 

Digging under the canal seems like a mad thing to do especially when from memory the canal isn't really on an embankment or anything.

Edited February 8, 2022 by StephenA

[Heartland]

I do not think that digging was a option, but it is also important to realise that salt extraction leads to subsidence, hence the quest to see if there was a pre-existing tunnel under the canal for farm accommodation use 

.

 

 

[Heartland]

A search for a pre existing tunnel under the Trent & Mersey Canal at this point has proved that no such tunnel existed as shown on surviving maps. So this subject remains open to interpretation.

[Chris Lowe]

The line on the map extracts that I have used is clearly a standard gauge line as it connects into the Altrincham to Chester line, I wonder if the narrow gauge line ever got mapped.

[StephenA]

On 09/02/2022 at 17:20, Heartland said:

I do not think that digging was a option, but it is also important to realise that salt extraction leads to subsidence, hence the quest to see if there was a pre-existing tunnel under the canal for farm accommodation use 

.

 

 

 

Usually when mining etc causes subsidence you end up with the canal well above the surrounding land  as shown in this post.

 

- but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

[Heartland]

Yes mining subsidence normally led to canal workmen building up the canal banks to maintain the level of the waterway, but that was coal and ironstone extraction, salt extraction appears to have more localised affects. The diversion of the canal at Marston was definitely due to salt extraction and the visible effect of salt extraction was the strengthening of the banks.  The canal at Wincham was also subject to a widening program by the North Staffordshire Railway at one point.

 

What needs to be determined is the level of the road and canal at this point and if it was possible to put in the railway. The salt extraction happed from the 1890's at the time the railway links were made and any effects of subsidence here would have been later, which makes the resolution of this issue difficult.

 

The Davis Brothers works at Lostock is known to have had one standard gauge Peckett Locomotive.

[Heartland]

With the help of Richard Dean, a copy of the 25 in map for 1897/8 at Wincham has shown the track passing under the road from the Bonners Hill works and on the other side of  the canal beside the basin and the standard gauge siding that served it.

 

Ariel views from Britain from Above only show part of the Lostock Works, but also these 1948/9 views can only show the Harris road services works that ,later occupied the Bonners Hill siding 

 

Another factor in the changing surface of this area was that ICI/Brunner Mond had a tramway further south that conveyed waste over the A570  to a tip using internal combustion locomotives.