Hydraulic Drive query

[NEBUCHADNEZZAR]

Just trying to get some general info if anyone knows the answer. This may seem like a daft question to some, but I'm trying to find out if it is possible to use an electric hydraulic pump to power a hydraulic drive on a prop ? The reason for asking is the existing system on my boat was a hydraulic drive. But all that is left is the drive unit at the end of the prop, there is no pump and no engine but I do have a powerful generator hence the question.

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, NEBUCHADNEZZAR said:

Just trying to get some general info if anyone knows the answer. This may seem like a daft question to some, but I'm trying to find out if it is possible to use an electric hydraulic pump to power a hydraulic drive on a prop ? The reason for asking is the existing system on my boat was a hydraulic drive. But all that is left is the drive unit at the end of the prop, there is no pump and no engine but I do have a powerful generator hence the question.

Yes its possible, we use to drive fans like that but you are going to need a big motor. you would do as well to sell the hydraulic motor on the propshaft and go straight electric drive. The electric/hydraulic is just adding more losses

 

[NEBUCHADNEZZAR]

Thanks Brian, the end goal is an electric drive motor on the prop (because that's about all that would fit under the floor), but i was just wondering if there was a way to use what i have at the moment.

 

[BEngo]

 Normally, on an engine powered set up,  the pump is matched to the motor  and the speed controlled by varying the engine speed.  Fixing engine speed and varying the motor speed by swashplate pump, or variable bleed off is possible but horrendously inefficient.

 

If you have a variable speed electric motor you can replicate an engine set up.  Assuming you have a single phase genny, you will need a single to 3 phase variable speed drive inverter and a delta wound 3 phase motor designed for a wide speed range.  It will probably have to be fan cooled.  Single phase motors are available but only in fairly small sizes and they do not much like speed variations.That is the broad brush treatment.  It really will need to be designed in detail by an expert because there are significant safety issues to deal with.

 

N

[NEBUCHADNEZZAR]

2 minutes ago, BEngo said:

 Normally, on an engine powered set up,  the pump is matched to the motor  and the speed controlled by varying the engine speed.  Fixing engine speed and varying the motor speed by swashplate pump, or variable bleed off is possible but horrendously inefficient.

 

If you have a variable speed electric motor you can replicate an engine set up.  Assuming you have a single phase genny, you will need a single to 3 phase variable speed drive inverter and a delta wound 3 phase motor designed for a wide speed range.  It will probably have to be fan cooled.  Single phase motors are available but only in fairly small sizes and they do not much like speed variations.That is the broad brush treatment.  It really will need to be designed in detail by an expert because there are significant safety issues to deal with.

 

N

Might just wait until I have the electric motor first. Thanks anyway.

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, NEBUCHADNEZZAR said:

I do have a powerful generator hence the question.

 

What sort of generator do you have and where would you be installing it ?

[NEBUCHADNEZZAR]

It's a 10KVA genny and it would be going into the engine space under the rear deck (where the original engine and pump would have been). The reason for asking is these are the things I have and I'm trying to see if there is a way I can use them.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, NEBUCHADNEZZAR said:

It's a 10KVA genny and it would be going into the engine space under the rear deck (where the original engine and pump would have been). The reason for asking is these are the things I have and I'm trying to see if there is a way I can use them.

 

 

Is it a 'builders frame generator' ?

is it designed to be installed in enclosed places ?

Is it silenced ?

 

People have died by fitting generators into engine spaces and making DIY exhausts. One of the oft quoted examples was where a Gas registered engineer, 'killed his daughter and his wife / girlfriend' with carbon monoxide poisoning.

 

If you want to run a generator on boatrd ensure it is a proper marine generator, designed to be installed on a boat, and, ensure it is correctly installed.

 

BE VERY CAREFUL - Its your boat you do what you want  but if you are likely to have friends or family on board do you want to be a 'killer' ?

 

Extract from the MAIB and coroners report

 

The two females were taken by air ambulance to Lancaster Royal Infirmary where they were pronounced deceased. A postmortem concluded that the cause of death was carbon monoxide poisoning.

The subsequent MAIB investigation identified that:

• The carbon monoxide poisoning had resulted from the inhalation of fumes emitted from a portable generator installed in the boat’s engine bay.

• The external exhaust system fitted to the portable generator had been modified to incorporate a silencer that had become detached from both the generator and the outlet pipe to the vessel’s side.

• The portable generator’s engine exhaust fumes filled the engine bay and spread through gaps in an internal bulkhead into the aft cabin where the mother and daughter were asleep.

• The portable generator was not intended by its manufacturer to be installed into an enclosed space, nor was it intended to be modified in any way.

• The improvised exhaust system attached to the generator was constructed from materials and using methods that were not appropriate for this application.

• The boat’s occupants were not alerted to the danger because two carbon monoxide sensors fitted to the boat at build were out of date and had been disconnected from the power supply.

 

 

Arniston’s owner was 39 years old. After leaving school he completed a heating and ventilation apprenticeship, during which he gained City and Guilds qualifications in pipe-fitting and welding. He was also on the ‘Gas Safe Register’4 , which is the official gas registration for the United Kingdom. In 2007, the owner started a business installing and servicing heating and ventilation systems in commercial premises

 

This is not an isolated example :

 

Starlight Rays (MAIB Report 15/2012) In August 2011, an engineer on board the fishing vessel Starlight Rays collapsed while using a portable petrol engine-driven pump inside the vessel’s fish hold. He was evacuated from the vessel and taken to hospital by rescue helicopter; the engineer never regained consciousness. He died from CO poisoning. The pump was being used to remove oily water from inside the vessel’s bow thruster space. The pump’s petrol engine ran for about 1 hour in a compartment with no mechanical ventilation and little natural air circulation. As a result, very high levels of CO accumulated within the fish hold. Two other crewmen were also poisoned by CO while trying to rescue the engineer; both survived. This accident demonstrated the ability for high concentrations of CO to quickly incapacitate people in enclosed spaces. It also showed the difficulties posed during rescue efforts in removing an injured crewman from a compartment with a noxious atmosphere without risking the lives of the rescuers.

 

Unnamed canal boat In January 2014, a portable generator was used to provide electric power for domestic equipment on board a 40ft long narrow boat being used on inland waterways as a permanent home. The generator was operated under a tonneau cover, which allowed CO to accumulate and enter the accommodation area through unsealed doorways. The boat’s owner was found dead on board. Postmortem examination determined that the cause of death was CO poisoning. The boat was not fitted with a CO alarm.

 

Eshcol (MAIB report 14/2014) In January 2014, the MAIB issued Safety Bulletin 1/2014 (Annex F) after an investigation began into the death of two young fishermen in Whitby harbour. The fishermen had returned from a fishing trip and had slept on board the boat. Before going to bed, the grill of a butane gas cooker was lit in order to warm the accommodation. The following morning the two men were dead in their bunks. The gas grill was still lit and the accommodation was full of fumes. Eshcol was not fitted with a CO alarm

 

Within the last couple of years there was another similar incident in York.

[NEBUCHADNEZZAR]

Thanks for the reply, it is designed to be enclosed as it has it's own enclosure with forced air intake and exhaust. It does have an auto shut down in the event of CO2 build up or air intake failure. Exhaust is submerged.  And it is remote control for start up and shut down.

 

I wouldn't take the chance with anything else.

 

[Mike Adams]

Yes it is possible but likely to be extremely expensive and inefficient. You have a Parker fixed displacement pump on the propshaft so the only alternative to reinstating a diesel engine and Parker pump might be to find a hydraulic power pack consisting of an engine and pump if you could find one of the right size. Looking at the arrangement of the boat I would consider working out if the original hydraulic system is usable(clean and not at all rusty). Almost any engine diesel or petrol/gas could drive the pump and be located anywhere. Remember these hydraulic components are very very expensive compared to a normal drive.

It doesn't look like a normal engine/gearbox would fit but maybe you could use a v drive gearbox?

[ditchcrawler]

I dont think a 10Kw motor would drive a big enough motor to get you very far.

[NEBUCHADNEZZAR]

16 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

Yes it is possible but likely to be extremely expensive and inefficient. You have a Parker fixed displacement pump on the propshaft so the only alternative to reinstating a diesel engine and Parker pump might be to find a hydraulic power pack consisting of an engine and pump if you could find one of the right size. Looking at the arrangement of the boat I would consider working out if the original hydraulic system is usable(clean and not at all rusty). Almost any engine diesel or petrol/gas could drive the pump and be located anywhere. Remember these hydraulic components are very very expensive compared to a normal drive.

It doesn't look like a normal engine/gearbox would fit but maybe you could use a v drive gearbox?

Thanks for the information. where would I find more info on parker. It's not a name I recognise. Thanks

[TheBiscuits]

I take it that the outboard isn't very good at moving the boat then.  Or is this a different boat?

 

I agree that installing an electric motor and getting rid of the hydraulic drive is probably the most sensible arrangement as you've already got the big genny.  Won't be cheap, but neither would a suitable hydraulic pump and control system.

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

23 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I dont think a 10Kw motor would drive a big enough motor to get you very far.

 

@IanD thinks that's enough for still water if I remember correctly, but you'd really not want to be on a river with it.

 

A 10kVA genny charging a big battery bank should power a larger electric drive for a while though.

[NEBUCHADNEZZAR]

Hi, yes it's the same boat. The outboard is fine (surprisingly) steers better than most in reverse. The outboard is only a short term solution because that's how the boat came. Long term, when finances allow, I want an electric drive.

 

The reason for all the questions is I'm just looking to utilise what I have already before I spend money. (I am Scottish after all)

[NEBUCHADNEZZAR]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

@IanD thinks that's enough for still water if I remember correctly, but you'd really not want to be on a river with it.

 

A 10kVA genny charging a big battery bank should power a larger electric drive for a while though.

I've seen a 60ft narrowboat with a 4.5KW electric motor. Wouldn't say it was tremendous, but it did work.

Edited January 27, 2022 by NEBUCHADNEZZAR

[ditchcrawler]

36 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

Yes it is possible but likely to be extremely expensive and inefficient. You have a Parker fixed displacement pump on the propshaft so the only alternative to reinstating a diesel engine and Parker pump might be to find a hydraulic power pack consisting of an engine and pump if you could find one of the right size. Looking at the arrangement of the boat I would consider working out if the original hydraulic system is usable(clean and not at all rusty). Almost any engine diesel or petrol/gas could drive the pump and be located anywhere. Remember these hydraulic components are very very expensive compared to a normal drive.

It doesn't look like a normal engine/gearbox would fit but maybe you could use a v drive gearbox?

Its the same as I have F11_F12_UK-411.PMD (parker.com)

[Tony Brooks]

I think the OP's idea is doable but at what cost I don't know. That is a piston motor so should be one of the more efficient ones, wear allowing. You can get lever controlled variable displacement pumps that could be linked to a Morse control so that would solve the boat speed control with a fixed speed motor. The big but is cost. The OP will also need a reservoir, a PRV, the hoses, and may be a suitable high pressure filter as well as buying the motor to power the pump. All of that would be redundant when he gets his proper propulsion electric motor and controller. My guess is, as other have said, probably not a cost effective idea.

[OldGoat]

What seems do-able from the outside and without knowing wha equiment  is available at affordable prices is mor than a challenge. Often an insirmountable one.

I was going to expand on size and power outputs bit The Management has summond me for other duties and I must drop this post (sorry)...

 

 

 

[Mike Adams]

3 hours ago, NEBUCHADNEZZAR said:

Thanks for the information. where would I find more info on Parker. It's not a name I recognise. Thanks

These pumps were originally manufactured by VOAC(Volvo) but now by Parker Hydraulics Ltd. Look for a label on the pump such as  F11 -39 or F12 -60. The second figure is the cc's of fluid per revolution of the shaft. So for example if you want the propshaft to turn at 1000rpm you need a flow rate of say 1000 x 39cc which is 39 litres a minute - quite a lot! Do you have any of the other hydraulic components such as the pump to go on the engine, oil tank or control  valve? If not you may be best sticking with the outboard. New F11 type pumps are about £2k depending on size but you can pick them up on ebay from time to time. These systems were often fitted by a company called ARS who are still operating. Sometimes complete systems appear for sale as they were widely used on hire craft on the Broads or Thames.

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

These pumps were originally manufactured by VOAC(Volvo) but now by Parker Hydraulics Ltd. Look for a label on the pump such as  F11 -39 or F12 -60. The second figure is the cc's of fluid per revolution of the shaft. So for example if you want the propshaft to turn at 1000rpm you need a flow rate of say 1000 x 39cc which is 39 litres a minute - quite a lot! Do you have any of the other hydraulic components such as the pump to go on the engine, oil tank or control  valve? If not you may be best sticking with the outboard. New F11 type pumps are about £2k depending on size but you can pick them up on ebay from time to time. These systems were often fitted by a company called ARS who are still operating. Sometimes complete systems appear for sale as they were widely used on hire craft on the Broads or Thames.

My pump came from a Corporation lorry, I was lucky it was in a commercial breakers yard when I was after something else. It was just the right size to give me near enough 2:1 drive, ie. half the size of the motor. They were Voac and I hadn't heard of Parker.

[NEBUCHADNEZZAR]

Thanks for the information. I have the drive unit attached to the prop,  all the hoses are in good condition, there's a hydraulic tank, prv but no pump or engine.  Was curious to see if it was possible to try a different way, but maybe it's beyond practical, without spending lots. But thanks.

[ditchcrawler]

This is a second hand one on Ebay  3706030 Voac Parker Hydraulic PTO Motor Pump F11-010-MB-CH-K-000 Bent-Axis | eBay

[agg221]

We have a hydraulic drive fitted. With a swash plate pump, you do have infinitely variable speed control on both the gear engagement and the engine revs. It is much quicker to adjust the speed on the hydraulics than the engine, but it does confuse moored boats if you pass at fixed engine note - many heads pop out to complain and then see you are going dead slow, and disappear back indoors! So yes, in theory you could go from generator to electric motor to hydraulic pump and then out to your hydraulic motor. The pump and motor need to be matched and the hoses are not something you can make up yourself. The pressures are way too high to jury-rig a temporary fix if one lets go. You also need hoses for the reservoir tank. The hoses are not outrageously expensive and can be had fairly easily from various places.

 

Your generator is around 13hp. That would be rather low for a boat the size of yours - it should run high torque though so if you have a bigger prop it may work adequately on canals. I wouldn't want to go upstream on a river though.

 

In the end though, I suspect you may find that the electric motor which drives the hydraulic pump is actually the same size and the electric motor you need to drive the prop directly, so you might as well just do that and have a more efficient system overall.

 

Alec

[IanD]

5 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

@IanD thinks that's enough for still water if I remember correctly, but you'd really not want to be on a river with it.

 

A 10kVA genny charging a big battery bank should power a larger electric drive for a while though.

 

Not just me -- most of the electric narrowboats out there have 10kW motors, some have 12kW, the most powerful I'm aware of is 15kW. There's a lot of useful information in the Ortomarine electric boat paper (60 page downloadable pdf) here:

 

https://www.ortomarine.co.uk/ortomarines-electric-narrowboat-performance-trials-event-final-report/

 

Also one of the boats mentioned has provided some interesting curves for power vs. speed on different canals and rivers here:

 

https://www.perseverancenb.com/post/pilgrimage-part-2-effort

Edited January 27, 2022 by IanD