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Self Defence


Thomas C King

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30 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Last time I was in Hungerford on the boat was in 2002. It seemed such a quiet town where one would never get any problems ;)

 

 

 

 

 

Something similar was said about Hungerford in August 1987

 

These days nowhere is beyond having anti-social, thuggery, or theft problems

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13 hours ago, Victor Vectis said:

:offtopic: ish...

 

A few years ago the comradepartnerperson, Little Else of this parish, did a lot of flying for her work. She is a knitter and was mightily miffed when she was stopped from taking her knitting needles onto the aircraft. She was planning to make use of the time en route to knit.

 

This led to a bizarre family discussion along the line of .....if your objective was to do serious harm to someone is there any domestic item that would NOT prove useful?

 

I'm minded of the film where an assassin uses the arm of his victim's specs to a lethal end.

I think it'd be hard to inflict serious injury with Rosie or Jim!

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2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Any blow to the head, be it by fist, or object is a gamble. Loads of people in prison who never thought the person they hit would die, or be left with life changing injuries. A terrible thing to have on your conscience for the rest of your days, however you try to justify it afterwards.

 

Indeed. Simply punching someone even once can have catastrophic results. Definitely not advised unless in genuine self defence other wise you will find yourself very much on the wrong side of the law.

 

If the person being punched falls and strikes their head hard there is high likelihood they won't get back up ever again.

 

As per the warning don't watch the vid if you think it may be upsetting.

 

 

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There are also people in prison who were cornered when burgling a house and had to fight their way out. Given the opportunity, they would have just scarpered when discovered by the householder. 

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Another example of what can happen when a member of the public intervenes.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/26/man-cleared-manslaughter-citizens-arrest-bristol

 

He has been acquitted, but he must have been put through hell for the last couple of years.

Edited by David Mack
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7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Another example of what can happen when a member of the public intervenes.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/26/man-cleared-manslaughter-citizens-arrest-bristol

 

He has been acquitted, but he must have been put through hell for the last couple of years.

 

That's the thing, a trial is punishment to most people, but it's the best system we know of.

Did he do the right thing? It has to be looked at as probabilistic. Because it is rare that restraint causes death, he seems to have made the right choice given what he knew at the time, even if prosecution took a mental and physical toll.

 

I never expect to get into a fight with someone on the canals, but I can accept that detaining someone or self-defence might be the right thing to do even if it involves being correctly arrested. I say this as someone who has been arrested before, and not finding it particularly pleasant.

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 if you are in immediate danger of being assaulted or if a person or persons  approach you and you think your in danger under the law you are allowed to ( pre emptive strike ) .

I don't mean give them a beating ,  but you are allowed to attack and subdue an individual .

I have experience of this and was taken to court where I paid for my own defence and was found not guilty. 

 £3000 plus 18 months of stress 3 court appearances threat of a prison sentence , I was paid most of my legal fee,s back 

Let's just say I'm not so hands on now , once bitten an all that .

Just move on and at some point ,  karma has a way of intervening. 

 

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On 25/01/2022 at 10:29, Thomas C King said:

 

See, I didn't know this.

 

Unfortunately, we're heading to Slough next (briefly, to get the boat epoxied).

If you let Iver Boatyard hear you infer they are in Slough then you will be needing something to defend yourself!

Just saying like.

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On 26/01/2022 at 14:04, Thomas C King said:

 

That's the thing, a trial is punishment to most people, but it's the best system we know of.

Did he do the right thing? It has to be looked at as probabilistic. Because it is rare that restraint causes death, he seems to have made the right choice given what he knew at the time, even if prosecution took a mental and physical toll.

 

I never expect to get into a fight with someone on the canals, but I can accept that detaining someone or self-defence might be the right thing to do even if it involves being correctly arrested. I say this as someone who has been arrested before, and not finding it particularly pleasant.

 

This is just a thought really, but I've been considering an alarm system of some sort for when I'm in more urban areas, and perhaps also as a first lien of defence in a remote area in case of personal attack. 

 

There is one on Amazon that has door contacts to set off the alarm siren, and you can add a couple of PIRs- maybe one PIR for the lounge/kitchen area in case the burglar gets in through a window, and maybe a PIR in the cratch, and maybe even one near the stern door. 

Obviously you dont want deafening sirens going off if a small animal steps onto your stern, or a mouse is scuttling in your cratch, so I'm not convinced about those.

But the good thing with this system is that you get an indoor siren that will wake you up , and you can add an outdoor siren (I would put it under a solar panel so its not easy to spot on their initial approach). 

So if a vandal or burglar even steps onto your stern, you can have both indoor and outdoor alarms go off, which will hopefully be enough to put them off the attempted robbery. 

There is also a panic button option, so if you feel threatened you can trigger the sirens yourself. 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07GXX89V3/ref=ewc_pr_img_2?smid=A1IU6F6VVA4XFV&psc=1

 

It seems quite a neat little solution, all wireless and easy to fit, and if you have to leave the boat for a few days, at least you have the confidence that any nearby boaters will be alerted of an attempted break-in. 

So far I've never even come close to feeling there is a risk of break-in, I will say that. But obviously there are some stretches of canal where it seems like a genuine possibility. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

This is just a thought really, but I've been considering an alarm system of some sort for when I'm in more urban areas, and perhaps also as a first lien of defence in a remote area in case of personal attack. 

 

There is one on Amazon that has door contacts to set off the alarm siren, and you can add a couple of PIRs- maybe one PIR for the lounge/kitchen area in case the burglar gets in through a window, and maybe a PIR in the cratch, and maybe even one near the stern door. 

Obviously you dont want deafening sirens going off if a small animal steps onto your stern, or a mouse is scuttling in your cratch, so I'm not convinced about those.

But the good thing with this system is that you get an indoor siren that will wake you up , and you can add an outdoor siren (I would put it under a solar panel so its not easy to spot on their initial approach). 

So if a vandal or burglar even steps onto your stern, you can have both indoor and outdoor alarms go off, which will hopefully be enough to put them off the attempted robbery. 

There is also a panic button option, so if you feel threatened you can trigger the sirens yourself. 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07GXX89V3/ref=ewc_pr_img_2?smid=A1IU6F6VVA4XFV&psc=1

 

It seems quite a neat little solution, all wireless and easy to fit, and if you have to leave the boat for a few days, at least you have the confidence that any nearby boaters will be alerted of an attempted break-in. 

So far I've never even come close to feeling there is a risk of break-in, I will say that. But obviously there are some stretches of canal where it seems like a genuine possibility. 

 

 

Have you considered what they call a ‘panic room’?


 

  • Greenie 1
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There is some justice left in this country :

 

Forklift removes car

 

A farmer who used his forklift tractor to flip and push a Vauxhall Corsa car off his land after a row with the driver over blocking access has been cleared by a jury of dangerous driving and criminal damage after going through “months of hell”.

Robert Hooper, 57, a fourth-generation hill farmer, used a telehandler with forks to lift the car from a lane outside his farm in Newbiggin-in-Teesdale, County Durham, flip it and push it on its side on to the road outside, mobile phone footage played to Durham crown court showed.

 

Hooper argued that an “Englishman’s home is his castle”, and claimed he had been punched by Charlie Burns, 21, a passenger in the car, when he first politely asked him and the driver to leave as they were blocking access on a busy day on the farm.

 

Teesdale farmer cleared by jury after flipping car with tractor | UK news | The Guardian

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On 25/01/2022 at 10:25, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There you go - with the 'sort of people' you get there what would you expect.

It's like a Ghetto for ner-do-wells and drop-outs from society, move to the Midlands upwards, much nicer class of people (always the odd bad apple, but a far lower percentage than on the K&A)

 

That's a load of bow locks

 

Bradford on Avon, Bath and Frome (the places I know) have resident ne'er-do-wells who are quite capable of breaking into vans, nicking solar panels and generators, and physical assault - I have no doubt Hungerford and Newbury also. The boaters are a cross section  of the society, but don't for one minute think that they brought crime to these areas, they didn't, it was already there. 

Edited by magpie patrick
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17 hours ago, Goliath said:

Have you considered what they call a ‘panic room’?

 

I'm not so concerned about burglary or personal attack to make significant changes to the boat's layout. There always seem to a be a few jobs that need doing as it is tbh, without seeking out more. 

Besides, I'm not that worried about burglary as such. About 15 years ago I had my front door almost kicked in at 3am by two thugs armed with knives, intent on stealing the car keys. 

But had they got in, its very likely they would have left me alone. Self-protection may not be a big issue if you are burgled, as long as you keep a relatively cool head and dont attack them. 

If I have a bunch of violent teenage thugs robbing the boat, I'm not tackling them in any way- I'm standing well back, and hopefully thus well out of harms way.

 

The only situation in which I think serious self-protection (and deadly force) become an issue is the case of an attack by a psychopathic murderer, but the odds of such an attack are so fantastically remote that I dont really even think about it. 

Don't get me wrong- I know there are some incredibly dangerous and unstable people on the loose. My friend worked for many years in Ashworth, and assured me that by no means all of the dangerous persons are under lock and key. And where better to make an attack than a remote or rural mooring in a place like, say, Whixall, with a single moored boat occupied by one person?  

But the fact is that it just doesnt happen. I can never recall hearing or reading of a murderous attack on a boater, or of people being found dead afterwards on their boats. A small number of potential killers are certainly out there, but they are thankfully not pursuing their ungodly hobby, for whatever reason.  

 

So I think the risk to consider is burglary, and an alarm of some sort should be a good option to reduce the risk of them getting away with your laptop, brompton, phone, cash, or whatever you might have of value- which come to think of it, is not a lot in my case.

And maybe thats why burglars dont bother much with boats?

 

I wonder if, as lithium batteries become more widespread over the next decade, thieves will catch on and we'll see a rise in battery theft....

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Greg & Jax said:

Hi Tony. 

It wasn't long before they started stealing catalytic converters off cars and vans etc .

The cost of these thefts alone is eye watering ask Iceland and most supermarkets. 

 

Yeah, ours got stolen last year. We thought we were smart, buying a Honda Jazz driven by an older woman for years. Reliable etc. But it's apparently one of the main cars they target. 800 quid repair on a car that cost us 1.5k, but we didn't want to write the car off because that felt wasteful.

 

On the original point of stealing Lithiums though, I'd think that's harder. Not only do you have to break in, but you also have to find the thing. Ours isn't that near the lead-acid starter battery, and I suppose if it every became a problem we could hide it somewhere completely unexpected (and they'd just see the lead-acid and move on).

Edited by Thomas C King
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13 minutes ago, Greg & Jax said:

Hi Tony. 

It wasn't long before they started stealing catalytic converters off cars and vans etc .

The cost of these thefts alone is eye watering ask Iceland and most supermarkets. 

 

Yes, the scumbags will probably catch on after a while, and you can imagine places like London will see big rises in battery thefts from boats.

But on the plus side we are still at least a decade away from lithium batteries being installed on the majority of boats, so thankfully its not going to be a burglary motive for a long time yet.

 

I watched a few youtube videos to get a visual idea of the London canals, in advance of a possible visit there, and I was struck by how frequently the topic of boat break-ins was mentioned. 

I wonder if London boaters take more precautions than those of us who are out in the provinces....

 

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5 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

And where better to make an attack than a remote or rural mooring in a place like, say, Whixall, with a single moored boat occupied by one person?  

But the fact is that it just doesnt happen. 

 

 

Thankfully I've never had a physical attack from an intruder on my boat, but I have had the very unnerving experience of waking up to find someone sat a few feet away. 

Completely my fault you could say, I sleep in the back cabin and never lock the doors. I awoke in the early hours to find a bloke sat warming his hands on the range,  I don't think he even knew I was there in the bed hole! 

After a brief but strange chat I persuaded him to leave,  which he did,  but it could easily have ended up a different story. 

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