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Self Defence


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3 minutes ago, haggis said:

We need to acquire a handspike as we are booked on the Huddersfield explorer cruise later this year . Then, if it is open, we will return via the Leeds and Liverpool

I got mine from Aspley Wharf Marina in Huddersfield.

 

I also think Shire Cruisers usually stock them in Sowerby Bridge depending on your direction of travel etc

 

As said a pick axe handle would also work....and Ive heard some use a length of softwood timber but I didnt fancy that snapping on me...hardwood is best

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12 minutes ago, frangar said:

I got mine from Aspley Wharf Marina in Huddersfield.

 

I also think Shire Cruisers usually stock them in Sowerby Bridge depending on your direction of travel etc

 

As said a pick axe handle would also work....and Ive heard some use a length of softwood timber but I didnt fancy that snapping on me...hardwood is best

Metal mooring wedges (right angle cross section 

instead of cylindrical pins) worked very efficiently. Even a big enough regular mooring pin would probably do the job

Edited by enigmatic
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A few years ago now, Cotswoldsman, late of this parish had a yoof board is boat and walk along the gunwale towardshim, when going through a bridge 'ole.

 

He did post some photo's of the event but I forget the eventual outcome.

 

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5 minutes ago, Ray T said:

A few years ago now, Cotswoldsman, late of this parish had a yoof board is boat and walk along the gunwale towardshim, when going through a bridge 'ole.

 

He did post some photo's of the event but I forget the eventual outcome.

 

Shove him off with a well aimed cabin shaft

Edited by JamesWoolcock
Bloody auto spell
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7 minutes ago, Ray T said:

A few years ago now, Cotswoldsman, late of this parish had a yoof board is boat and walk along the gunwale towardshim, when going through a bridge 'ole.

 

He did post some photo's of the event but I forget the eventual outcome.

 

He knew there was a lock ahead(well, eventually!!), and took his windlass down the gunnel, swinging it round like you do.

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24 minutes ago, haggis said:

We need to acquire a handspike as we are booked on the Huddersfield explorer cruise later this year . Then, if it is open, we will return via the Leeds and Liverpool

I can send you a new one made from recycled oak. PM me.

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I'm reluctant to take physical measures against miscreants as obviously I would be required to organise a support team to provide counselling to the poor unfortunate, as well as a medical team to handle his injuries.

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4 hours ago, enigmatic said:

A typical boat comes with:

A long pole < snip >

A boathook

< snip > sounds intimidating!

:offtopic: ish...

 

A few years ago the comradepartnerperson, Little Else of this parish, did a lot of flying for her work. She is a knitter and was mightily miffed when she was stopped from taking her knitting needles onto the aircraft. She was planning to make use of the time en route to knit.

 

This led to a bizarre family discussion along the line of .....if your objective was to do serious harm to someone is there any domestic item that would NOT prove useful?

 

I'm minded of the film where an assassin uses the arm of his victim's specs to a lethal end.

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The thing to consider with escalating a confrontation (which is what pulling out a weapon does) is what comes next?

 

A boat is relatively immobile. It's not like a van where you can be 20 miles away within a matter of minutes. If you pull out a weapon to scare someone off, who's to say they won't come back in half an hour with 5 others? It's all situational but as much as it might feel counterintuitive, the best option is almost always to deter and de-escalate.

 

In reference to OPs point, I have a locker just inside the stern door where I keep all my mooring pins, chains etc. and a machete for clearing vegetation. I would assume this would provide a good source of scary pieces of metal if it ever came to it.

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3 minutes ago, BrumBargee said:

The thing to consider with escalating a confrontation (which is what pulling out a weapon does) is what comes next?

 

A boat is relatively immobile. It's not like a van where you can be 20 miles away within a matter of minutes. If you pull out a weapon to scare someone off, who's to say they won't come back in half an hour with 5 others? It's all situational but as much as it might feel counterintuitive, the best option is almost always to deter and de-escalate.

 

In reference to OPs point, I have a locker just inside the stern door where I keep all my mooring pins, chains etc. and a machete for clearing vegetation. I would assume this would provide a good source of scary pieces of metal if it ever came to it.

Hit them hard enough and they won’t be coming back with a few mates…..

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Just now, frangar said:

Hit them hard enough and they won’t be coming back with a few mates…..

There's a very fine line between that and killing someone (genuinely). I personally wouldn't take that risk unless my life was in immediate danger.

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Cable ties. 

 

I've never had any trouble but always idly wondered how it would work if you could rapidly knock out the intruder with a heavy item then cable tie their wrists to something immovable with heavy cable ties. Then call the rozzers. 

 

Would the act of cable tying the person be constituted as an assault of some sort?

 

Probably not that easy to knock someone out but it's interesting to consider how this work. 

 

De-escalation certainly the best option. Perhaps the offer of a nice cup of tea or a bottle of beer would help in this scenario. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Cable ties. 

 

I've never had any trouble but always idly wondered how it would work if you could rapidly knock out the intruder with a heavy item then cable tie their wrists to something immovable with heavy cable ties. Then call the rozzers. 

 

Would the act of cable tying the person be constituted as an assault of some sort?

 

Probably not that easy to knock someone out but it's interesting to consider how this work. 

 

De-escalation certainly the best option. Perhaps the offer of a nice cup of tea or a bottle of beer would help in this scenario. 

 

 

If it was reasonably evident that they were committing (or attempting to commit) a crime, it's always been my understanding that you can use reasonable force to detain them until police arrive.

 

As you suggested the 'knocking out' is the grey area. Hitting someone hard enough in the head to render them unconscious is not an insignificant amount of force and could result in much worse. For example, if you hit someone over the head who then tumbles unconscious into the cut and drowns because you can't lift them out, you're almost certainly going to be tried for manslaughter. It's then very difficult to prove that you acted entirely in self-defence, especially if this happened on a dark towpath with no CCTV or witnesses to back you up. 

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18 minutes ago, BrumBargee said:

The thing to consider with escalating a confrontation (which is what pulling out a weapon does) is what comes next?

 

A boat is relatively immobile. It's not like a van where you can be 20 miles away within a matter of minutes. If you pull out a weapon to scare someone off, who's to say they won't come back in half an hour with 5 others? It's all situational but as much as it might feel counterintuitive, the best option is almost always to deter and de-escalate.

 

In reference to OPs point, I have a locker just inside the stern door where I keep all my mooring pins, chains etc. and a machete for clearing vegetation. I would assume this would provide a good source of scary pieces of metal if it ever came to it.

 

You make a good point here. About ten years ago when I was in a house, I went out and reacted angrily to some teenagers who 'accidentally' kicked a ball at my door, and the swines then came back periodically after dark for months afterwards, throwing eggs, snowballs, and even small stones.  

They were too fast to catch on foot, and to be honest if I had caught them they'd have probably beaten me up anyway, if it came to a physical confrontation. 

Any sign of a weapon in your hand when you confront vandals, and a weapon being waved around threateningly, could well be caught on their phone cameras, and it could be you who ends up being charged, and maybe jailed, even if the weapon doesn't go near anyone. 

Its really hard to control your temper and try to deal with them calmly, but in the case of vandals its probably the best option to keep yourself out of trouble with the law. 

And bear in mind, many boaters are fairly elderly- certainly in their late 50s and 60s.

There are some boaters who have specific training that will help them in confrontations, but for most of us, the vandal or assailant is very likely to be younger, stronger, fitter and faster than you are, and he will have at least one accomplice- so your chances in a physical brawl are not that great. 

A burglar at 3am is a slightly different proposition, and certainly inside your boat you may be able to mount a defence against a manslaughter or GBH type of charge, but I think I'd rather shout at them, set off an alarm, and then let them get away, rather than close in on them with a weapon, in a highly volatile and explosive situation where they or you might take sudden/violent action in the heat of the moment, that the law might give you cause to deeply regret later. 

 

  • Greenie 3
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Any blow to the head, be it by fist, or object is a gamble. Loads of people in prison who never thought the person they hit would die, or be left with life changing injuries. A terrible thing to have on your conscience for the rest of your days, however you try to justify it afterwards.

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On 25/01/2022 at 09:27, Thomas C King said:

What equipment if any do people recommend for self defense on a boat?

 

It needs to be legal, because it needs to be usable. The main situation is when there is an issue with more than one person, e.g., two large men.

 

I might sound overly concerned, but I'm getting sick of hearing all these issues around where we are at the moment. Yesterday, someone posted on our FB group that three large men three a brick at a goose and fetched it with a Terrier. There have also been solar panel thefts (we have installed a security camera, will install another one). Gennie thefts (by a known criminal who has been previously done for manslaughter, but rarely gets caught despite clearly selling stolen goods), Bricks through windows. Etc.

 

I say all that, to explain that I don't think "call the police" is really sufficient. But at the same time, not even pepper spray is legal (and to be fair, that's probably a good thing).

 

Is there anything that someone would suggest, or is it pretty much a lost cause?

 

To me you seem to be confusing two different issues, theft and assault. What you've described is some people killing a goose (which may or may not be perfectly legal depending on how it's done) and theft of property.

 

Neither of these situations require or would legally permit using physical self defence methods because you're not being attacked yourself, so it's not self defence. Indeed you might find yourself up in court should you choose to assault someone who isn't physically threatening you. 

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5 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

To me you seem to be confusing two different issues, theft and assault. What you've described is some people killing a goose (which may or may not be perfectly legal depending on how it's done) and theft of property.

 

Neither of these situations require or would legally permit using physical self defence methods because you're not being attacked yourself, so it's not self defence. Indeed you might find yourself up in court should you choose to assault someone who isn't physically threatening you. 

 

Goose - I'd confront them, they may then become violent. Throwing a brick at a goose is not legal.

 

Theft, you can still use some physical force, for example to prevent a thief from running off. This is according to official government advice.

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It could be worth keeping geese of your own on the boat. 

 

When I was little we had a large country house in Sussex and had geese to patrol the perimeter. They are very effective at dealing with unauthorised persons. 

 

A little flock of geese should be reasonably straightforward to accomodate aboard the craft. 

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