Self Defence

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Problem is that as soon as you turn the tables on the aggressor, you become the aggressor and now it is you with legal issues. It is a very fine line.

As appears to be the case in this incident yesterday.  Passer by drives his car at a man knifing a woman in the street, and now he has been arrested for murder.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/01/25/maida-vale-stabbing-driver-arrested-for-murder-after-knifeman-hit-by-car-15981332/

[Thomas C King]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

As appears to be the case in this incident yesterday.  Passer by drives his car at a man knifing a woman in the street, and now he has been arrested for murder.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/01/25/maida-vale-stabbing-driver-arrested-for-murder-after-knifeman-hit-by-car-15981332/

 

Arrested, not prosecuted. It's not the job of the police to decide who is guilty, that's the courts' job. So they are probably right to arrest him, and leave the prosecution to the CPS.

[magnetman]

A small container of ash from the fire, preferably hot, could be quite an interesting item to use for interaction with a bad actor. 

 

Or a fire extinguisher, of course. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by magnetman

[mrsmelly]

38 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

 

Arrested, not prosecuted. It's not the job of the police to decide who is guilty, that's the courts' job. So they are probably right to arrest him, and leave the prosecution to the CPS.

If they hadnt arrested them certain people would have moaned like hell. If they do arrest, certain people will moan like hell. Damned if you do, damned if you dont. Years ago I attended a house after a tip off and found a child aged 2 with two black eyes, and other minor injuries. I got another bobby up there and a social worker and talked to a doctor on the telephone and took the child away for obvious reasons. WE nearly had a riot on our hands from the mothers neighbours trying to stop it happening, a very distressing time for all of us involved. We all know what can and does happen if children are left in the wrong environment. Its a very tough call to make.

[Tracy D'arth]

A weapon of opportunity is acceptable to be wielded if you fear for your life or are convinced you will be injured.

 

Hand spike, mooring pin, goat chain, pile hook etc all acceptable as they are essential "to hand" boat equipment.

[Hudds Lad]

On a plus note when stopping in less salubrious areas, i’ve found an easy method of rubbish disposal.

 

Simply bag your undesirable waste in a common or garden black bin liner.

Then, using a white chalkboard marker/paint left from your London whiteout makeover/Tippex, simply write the words “SWAG” on the bag in a large san serif typeface.

Now turn your back on it and within minutes a lovely cad or bounder in traditional garb (see pic) will tiptoe from the undergrowth and make off with your newly disguised trash. Hey presto! Rubbish gone  

 

 

[Dave Payne]

4 hours ago, Loddon said:

A sawn off 410 works well and is easy to conceal 😱

 

 

Proper scary that..

[roland elsdon]

Once looking at a boat at a well known broker with a view to buying opened the crumb drawer in the back cabin.

Inside was a revolver.

In the ticket drawer were cartridges.

Didnt buy the boat.

[roland elsdon]

5 hours ago, Thomas C King said:

 

See, I didn't know this.

 

Unfortunately, we're heading to Slough next (briefly, to get the boat epoxied).

I think the slough arm was where they filmed apocalypse now. We went down it in 1981. We are still getting counselling.

[BlueStringPudding]

5 hours ago, tree monkey said:

In my humble opinion unless you can actually use whatever it is you wish to "arm" yourself with, just don't, you could as easily be giving the perp a weapon from your own hand, considering my working life I have a fair few sharp and heavy hitting type things and they would stay firmly in there storage.

 

Again my opinion if you have to confront someone make sure you have an escape route first but be LOUD and confident maybe have an air horn nearby and use it and most importantly use you phone to take (or pretend) to take photos.

 

I've done that before.  Or better still,  pretend to be broadcasting it live to Facebook from your phone. That way they might think twice about trying hurt you to destroy the evidence on your phone and rather feel a sense of urgency to b*gger off. 

[LadyG]

If you are below towpath level then you are unwise to make any threatening action as he has the upper hand. Best not to try any combat as these guys could be on drugs.

I was in the local hospital the other night, two apparently dead guys, plus a few random drunks and druggies. These things probably happen every Friday night at A and E.  Don't get involved.

I have chains for my doors and they are not easy to open from the outside. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by LadyG

[Onewheeler]

Have you got any time-expired fire extinguishers?

[Tonka]

12 minutes ago, LadyG said:

If you are below towpath level then you are unwise to make any threatening action as he has the upper hand. Best not to try any combat as these guys could be on drugs.

I was in the local hospital the other night, two apparently dead guys, plus a few random drunks and druggies. These things probably happen every Friday night at A and E.  Don't get involved.

I have chains for my doors and they are not easy to open from the outside. 

Could the medical staff not tell if the 2 guys were dead

[LadyG]

11 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Could the medical staff not tell if the 2 guys were dead

They were in triage, and being trolleyed to a quiet corridor where they keep the laundry, presumably to be dealt with when things quietened down.  

Edited January 25, 2022 by LadyG

[LadyG]

22 minutes ago, Onewheeler said:

Have you got any time-expired fire extinguishers?

I think if it's a matter of life or death any fire extinguisher would serve the purpose, I assume you mean to set it off rather than hit him with it? 

I have considered a gun which fires salt, or a large water pistol filled with vinegar and orange dye, but really not very practical. 

The trouble is you are on your boat which is an easy target anytime, so best to ignore. 

I did try to use my mobile 999 a while ago, but they had to call me ba k, I did not realise you don't get the same answering service from a mobile as a landline

Edited January 25, 2022 by LadyG

[LadyG]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I think if it's a matter of life or death any fire extinguisher would serve the purpose, I assume you mean to set it off rather than hit him with it? 

I have considered a gun which fires salt, or a large water pistol filled with vinegar and orange dye, but really not very practical. 

The trouble is you are on your boat which is an easy target anytime, so best to ignore. 

I did try to use my mobile 999 a while ago, but they had to call me back, I did not realise you don't get the same answering service from a mobile as a landline

 

[Victor Vectis]

7 hours ago, frangar said:

A Calder & Hebble handspike is a pretty useful thing to have onboard.....of course you travel widely.....

 

 

We used a pick axe handle when on the C&H. Its still on the boat.

 

I'm sure it could have other uses if needs be.

[Bee]

Actually I made a batch of walking sticks a while ago with solid brass handles in the shape of a T stud. A whack with that would really hurt. I might try and download a pic later.

 

[JamesWoolcock]

7 hours ago, frangar said:

A Calder & Hebble handspike is a pretty useful thing to have onboard.....of course you travel widely.....

 

Got one!

And always thought it an ideal weapon, but then I think you could cave someone's skull in quite easily - so go careful!

Edited January 25, 2022 by JamesWoolcock
Typo

[frangar]

Just now, JamesWoolcock said:

Got one!

Likewise!!  

[Guest]

As others suggest a lot hangs on pre meditation and going 'prepared', that is how I understand how the law works and using force proportionate to the event.

 

So if somebody is breaking windows and you lamp them with a c&h handspike you might have a problem.

 

But if somebody is physically attacking you and you grab one to defend yourself you would be in a better position.

 

Unless of course a knowledgable copper knows that hand spike isn't used on the k&a and one doesnt need to be to hand. Much better to lamp them with a windlass or your tiller handle.

[Tony1]

 

For me, there are two broad types of defence situation. 

One is the incredibly rare scenario where a man breaks into the boat with the sole intention of attacking (and probably killing) you.

The probability of this happening is vanishingly small, and in that situation you are not concerned about court cases, but surviving through the next few minutes. That's where you might feel your spike, hammer or hatchet could help. 

 

The far more realistic scenario (although still pretty unlikely in many locations) is a pair of burglars having a go at breaking in (or stealing a visible item from the boat), or perhaps young thugs committing mindless vandalism.

In these real-world scenarios,  I don't think you can afford to use any sort of serious weapon- and certainly not a knife or similar.

Any move of attack with a serious weapon could see you jailed, if the police got involved- and certainly if you wounded the intruder. 

 

My personal solution to this scenario is not to resort to a spike, hammer, or anything of that sort. I don't think the law allows you the opportunity to defend yourself in any meaningful way.

I even heard of a case where a bloke was jailed after a taser he ordered from Europe was opened by customs.

I also thought about some kind of pepper spray, but that is also illegal- even a home made spray. 

 

So I got a personal attack alarm that also flashes.

So if someone tried to forcibly enter the boat there will at least be a lot of noise. 

The best idea I've had so far is to place a super-loud siren alarm on the roof (maybe with a big flashing light), which you can activate remotely with a key fob type of button. 

Something like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Klaxon-Signals-SLM-0001-Master-Blaster/dp/B0856M6XS3/ref=sr_1_20?crid=3ANF6SOSRGW4R&keywords=super+loud+alarm+siren&qid=1643132551&sprefix=super+loud+alarm+siren%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-20

 

 

 

[frangar]

6 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

As others suggest a lot hangs on pre meditation and going 'prepared', that is how I understand how the law works and using force proportionate to the event.

 

So if somebody is breaking windows and you lamp them with a c&h handspike you might have a problem.

 

But if somebody is physically attacking you and you grab one to defend yourself you would be in a better position.

 

Unless of course a knowledgable copper knows that hand spike isn't used on the k&a and one doesnt need to be to hand. Much better to lamp them with a windlass or your tiller handle.

Kick the body in the cut.....burn handspike on stove....

[haggis]

27 minutes ago, frangar said:

Likewise!!  

We need to acquire a handspike as we are booked on the Huddersfield explorer cruise later this year . Then, if it is open, we will return via the Leeds and Liverpool

[enigmatic]

8 hours ago, Thomas C King said:

What equipment if any do people recommend for self defense on a boat?

 

It needs to be legal, because it needs to be usable. The main situation is when there is an issue with more than one person, e.g., two large men.

 

I might sound overly concerned, but I'm getting sick of hearing all these issues around where we are at the moment. Yesterday, someone posted on our FB group that three large men three a brick at a goose and fetched it with a Terrier. There have also been solar panel thefts (we have installed a security camera, will install another one). Gennie thefts (by a known criminal who has been previously done for manslaughter, but rarely gets caught despite clearly selling stolen goods), Bricks through windows. Etc.

 

I say all that, to explain that I don't think "call the police" is really sufficient. But at the same time, not even pepper spray is legal (and to be fair, that's probably a good thing).

 

Is there anything that someone would suggest, or is it pretty much a lost cause?

A typical boat comes with:

A long pole

A boathook

A tiller bar

A range of shapes and sizes of hammer

A set of metal mooring pins, spiked at one end

Some lengths of chain

An axe

A set of power tools

Knives suitable for cutting rope and things wrapped round the prop

A set of kitchen knives

A collection of firewood logs of sizes ranging from throwable to suitable for fencing

Several metres of rope

A hose

A set of saucepans

A bicycle rugged enough to survive the apocalypse

Files and saws

A horn

A plank

A bucket of hot ash

An ecofan

A cuddly toy

Three fire extinguishers

A webcam to upload footage to the boater's vlog

 

Seriously, there are actual arsenals with fewer devices that could make an improvised weapon per square foot of floor space than a completely normal cruising inventory and toolkit. 

 

Which is one reason why boaters don't seem to be the targets for as much crime as perhaps might be expected bearing in mind where they moor. Even stuff that serves no purpose at all in an altercation like "have you got the handcuff key?" sounds intimidating!

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by enigmatic