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HVO Business Opportunity


dmr

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Does anybody here know any chemistry?

 

We have been running on HVO for a couple of weeks now, mostly battery charging, but did a bit of boating today.

Will report in more detail later but so far its looking very very good, only problem is the exhaust smells really bad.

I reckon the good old dirty sulphurous diesel gave the best exhaust smell.

A friend told me his dad used to use strawberry flavoured 2 stroke oil.

A bit of www research shows that this really does exist and that all sorts of smells are available to be added to any fuel. These are mostly aimed at American drag racers so are  rather naff  things like blueberry, though you can get patchouli for us old hippies.

So how difficult would it be to make a smell additive with a name like "dirty old diesel" ?  and at reasonable cost? as the existing smells are nose wateringly expensive.

 

I am sure many old boaters and keepers of classic old trucks would just love this product.

 

 

(😀)

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There has been no sulfur in diesel fuel for decades now.......unless you live in the Congo ,or Nigeria........In my opinion ,if your exhaust has smell ,its due to a worn engine passing incompletely burned fuel,and partly burned lube oil........you can try a lube oil meant for Detroit Diesel two strokes......these oils generally burn without odour,even in GM s that slurp oil.

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Castrol R for a really good smell.

One of the mercaptans for a generally sulphurous stink.

You used to be able to buy stuff for making paint smell different.  I expect that would work too.

 

Seriously, any sort of smell additive is going to cost brewsters because a). That is what the market will bear and b). The market is, in oil or fuel additive terms, microscopic.

N

 

 

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I suspect the business opportunity is pretty small amongst boaters. Even amongst truckers they will I suspect, only expect to buy a litre or two of scent additive per year and even then, expect it to cost no more than say, $30. 

 

So I doubt the development costs would be worth spending. And then there are the packaging and labelling costs. Those one litre plastic containers will be expensive to buy, even empty and unprinted!

 

You're better off patenting the idea, then flogging it to a trucker to actually execute the business plan, then buying a litre of the stuff from him per year!

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There was an article on HVO in Waterways World this month. It was a big thumbs up.

 

However they acknowledged a fly in the ointment as it is subsidised to the tune of 80p a litre on the basis that it is being used solely for propulsion. In theory you can't legally sit there charging your batteries with it.

 

Two boatyards approached for  the article admitted they had stopped selling it until the situation is resolved.

I guess it's a case of watch this space but don't hold your breath. 

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19 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

There was an article on HVO in Waterways World this month. It was a big thumbs up.

 

However they acknowledged a fly in the ointment as it is subsidised to the tune of 80p a litre on the basis that it is being used solely for propulsion. In theory you can't legally sit there charging your batteries with it.

 

Two boatyards approached for  the article admitted they had stopped selling it until the situation is resolved.

I guess it's a case of watch this space but don't hold your breath. 

 

This is very odd as one of its best applications is in standby generators. Why can you buy red HVO if its only use is propulsion?

  • Greenie 1
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1 hour ago, BEngo said:

Castrol R for a really good smell.

One of the mercaptans for a generally sulphurous stink.

You used to be able to buy stuff for making paint smell different.  I expect that would work too.

 

Seriously, any sort of smell additive is going to cost brewsters because a). That is what the market will bear and b). The market is, in oil or fuel additive terms, microscopic.

N

 

 

I was wondering about R, maybe a shot like you use to do with redex when you fill up?

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

This is very odd as one of its best applications is in standby generators. Why can you buy red HVO if its only use is propulsion?

Probably because HVO doesn't fall within the rules that allow sellers of red diesel to boaters to accept a split duty election. Not a deliberate exclusion, just something nobody thought of when the rules were written.

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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Probably because HVO doesn't fall within the rules that allow sellers of red diesel to boaters to accept a split duty election. Not a deliberate exclusion, just something nobody thought of when the rules were written.

 

I don't really understand this. HVO is only diesel, or maybe its not in the wording of the rules?

The boatyard buys diesel or HVO in bulk and pays the initial duty/vat, they then collect propulsion duty from the boaters and give this to HMRC, so the bulk seller of the HVO does not get involve with the propulsion split, and sells HVO just like they would sell diesel.

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1 minute ago, dmr said:

 

I don't really understand this. HVO is only diesel, or maybe its not in the wording of the rules?

The boatyard buys diesel or HVO in bulk and pays the initial duty/vat, they then collect propulsion duty from the boaters and give this to HMRC, so the bulk seller of the HVO does not get involve with the propulsion split, and sells HVO just like they would sell diesel.

 

I suspect the problem is that HVO is not included in the definition of red diesel as used in the rules. And so the boatyard retailers can't comply with the rules of the split declaration scheme. And so its the retailers who aren't offering HVO, not necessarily the bulk suppliers (although they may also be under a legal obligation to take reasonable steps to ensure that their customers i.e. the retailers, are only going to allow it to be used as permitted by law).

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Where did you get it from in the end?

 

I see that HVO is being used for the Hebden Bridge flood alleviation works.

 

20220118_125150.jpg.2865bb8af585e809ac86779a7ffa1314.jpg

 

 

Yeah, I walked down to Hebden one night with a jerry can and a bit of plastic pipe 😀.

But seriously, getting a 20l sample proved too difficult so I dived in and got New Era fuels to deliver a 200l drum.  They were very efficient and helpful on the phone but otherwise it did not go too well. I received no invoice or paperwork despite several requests, and although they  agreed to deliver on a flat bed Transit it arrived on an 18 ton truck which could not negotiate the roads here. Luckily I had access to a flatbed truck so we met them in a layby and man handled the drum. The 18 ton delivery vehicle also came a long way with just our single drum so this probably produced more CO2 than I have saved 😀.

 

So far I am very impressed with HVO, it appears to be significantly better than diesel.

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14 hours ago, dmr said:

Will report in more detail later but so far its looking very very good, only problem is the exhaust smells really bad.

 

Is it the HVO combustion products that smell bad or is it clearing all sorts of smelly deposits out of your engine and exhaust?

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3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Is it the HVO combustion products that smell bad or is it clearing all sorts of smelly deposits out of your engine and exhaust?

 

There is not much smell (or smoke) but what smell there is is not particularly attractive. I am starting to suspect that the exhaust from pure diesel is not very nice and its probably all the impurities in diesel that gave it its characteristic smell.  I am hoping that HVO will produce much less soot and particulates but I don't think it will have a cleansing effect.   Next step is to remove and clean the injectors and see how long they stay clean for.

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I guess people who own narrowboats may be accustomed to breathing exhaust fumes quite often . So a change to HVO should be a healthy move.

 

I thought diesel and HVO were the same as far as duty is concerned?

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1 hour ago, Lady C said:

I think white diesel and HVO are the same as far as duty is concerned.  Red diesel is different.

see  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rates-and-allowances-excise-duty-hydrocarbon-oils/excise-duty-hydrocarbon-oils-rates

 

There is specific entry for bio fuel not for road use.

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18 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

 

And they have exactly the same duty as red and white dinodeisel so I don't understand what the problem is?

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There's a lot of confusion, and some brave souls trying to sort it out. The main importer, Crown, gave me the initial impression that all was okay but have not answered my detailed queries subsequently.

 

So, we tried it, liked it,  but have not re-ordered for the simple reason that the next time I tried to buy some the price had jumped up and it was now 25p per litre dearer than bulk red, and sadly I could not justify that.

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Just now, Rose Narrowboats said:

 

 

So, we tried it, liked it,  but have not re-ordered for the simple reason that the next time I tried to buy some the price had jumped up and it was now 25p per litre dearer than bulk red, and sadly I could not justify that.

Do you think its just down to supply and demand?

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