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Rudder out of bottom cup


Balloon

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If you are near a quiet over bridge or railing above the boat, attache a rope loop between it and the to where the swan neck joins the stock. Use tiller bar or mooring stake in the loopas a Spanish windlass and wind to raise the stock and lower is into the cup. Quite powerfull are Spanish windlasses.

Or if you have a large flat tyre lever or better still a stout Jemmy with a little block to raise it a bit for leveridge to lever up the stock far enough to enter.

Edited by bizzard
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Interesting! So it should just raise without loosening anything. I’m going to give it a try at the weekend! Thanks. (I’m working all week)

3 minutes ago, bizzard said:

If you are near a quiet over bridge or railing above the boat, attache a rope loop between it and the to where the swan neck joins the stock. Use tiller bar or mooring stake in the loopas a Spanish windlass and wind to raise the stock and lower is into the cup. Quite powerfull are Spanish windlasses.

 

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3 minutes ago, Balloon said:

Interesting! So it should just raise without loosening anything. I’m going to give it a try at the weekend! Thanks. (I’m working all week)

 

Well it must have risen up to come out of the cup on the skeg, and has probably fallen back down.

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5 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Well it must have risen up to come out of the cup on the skeg, and has probably fallen back down.

You’re quite right. Is there a possibility that whatever shaft it is presumably attached to has become bent? The rudder is visible at the waterline in a way it wasn’t before. Will this preclude reattachment?

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Just now, Balloon said:

You’re quite right. Is there a possibility that whatever shaft it is presumably attached to has become bent? The rudder is visible at the waterline in a way it wasn’t before. Will this preclude reattachment?

Could well be bent if you can see more of the rudders outward  end, especially if the stock did rise up in the top bearing and has now dropped down which would actually lower the rudder a little lower than it normally was. There has been a modification to that top bearing for some reason, the big plate. Probably just to accomodate a different type of bearing.

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All the experts (including me) have fixed the problem over the years -and probably forgotteh what they actually did.

The challeng is that the rudder and stock (shaft) arn't balanced and trying to trplace the bottom end shaft into the cup requires a certain amount  of torcision coulped with brute force - these are mutually exclusive.

Overtanging trees or bridge structures can help - but both you / the boat/ the water flow / conpsire to make your efforts  in vain.

IIRC I fixd mine with some G-cramps and a pair of chassis stands (neither of which you may not have to hand...).

This is where the native British inventiveness comes int play....

 

FWIW my solution was to replace the trusty welder's fixed upper bearing with a swivel type so that NEXT TIME it was more a matter of just angling the whole assembly.

 

Not a lot of use to you now - but maybe food for thought next time...

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1 minute ago, bizzard said:

Could well be bent if you can see more of the rudders outward  end, especially if the stock did rise up in the top bearing and has now dropped down which would actually lower the rudder a little lower than it normally was. There has been a modification to that top bearing for some reason, the big plate. Probably just to accomodate a different type of bearing.

 Yes - an adjustable plummer block (dunno correct term) but widely (!) available from companies who suply industrial belts / transmissions.

Must go Dinner gond has sounded.

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Anyway Mr Balloon, oil around at the top of the bearing and stock to make it easier to lift when attempting to relocate it in the cup, do so even if it happens to have bent the stock. If bent too much it probably won't locate but e binding inside the tube.

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;Looking at the first photo it looks like it might have had another tube fitted. Looks like a weld all around the outside of the bearing where a new tube might be welded to that adapter plate, one as wide as a drainpipe.

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Thanks @bizzard for all your thoughts. Will see what I can do at the weekend…you’re probably right that it has been adapted at some point. I bought the boat in Sept (not my first boat by any stretch, but my first NB) and allegedly it had just had a new bush fitted somewhere in the assembly. Anyway. Will see what I can do. 
 

 

by the way I’m kind of honoured at you calling me (a little solo cruising woman!) Mr Balloon. I’ll take that praise 🤣

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2 hours ago, Balloon said:

Thanks @bizzard for all your thoughts. Will see what I can do at the weekend…you’re probably right that it has been adapted at some point. I bought the boat in Sept (not my first boat by any stretch, but my first NB) and allegedly it had just had a new bush fitted somewhere in the assembly. Anyway. Will see what I can do. 
 

 

by the way I’m kind of honoured at you calling me (a little solo cruising woman!) Mr Balloon. I’ll take that praise 🤣

Beg your pardon, Mrs Balloon.:giggles:.

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Looks like a commercial bearing retainer in a fabricated mounting plate......rudder shaft very likely retained only by the two setscrews we see in the pic...........id say there is a very good chance of the rudder dropping out ,and then there is nothing to hold it by topside............Personally ,I d weld a ring onto the top of the shaft to get a purchase for lifting..(big nut would suit).........you can easily cut the ring off when done with..............with respect,if you dont know what you re doing,dont do it.

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9 hours ago, john.k said:

Looks like a commercial bearing retainer in a fabricated mounting plate......rudder shaft very likely retained only by the two setscrews we see in the pic...........id say there is a very good chance of the rudder dropping out ,and then there is nothing to hold it by topside............Personally ,I d weld a ring onto the top of the shaft to get a purchase for lifting..(big nut would suit).........you can easily cut the ring off when done with..............with respect,if you dont know what you re doing,dont do it.

Why do you want to start welding bits on. If in the long term you were worried about the boss coming off the top of the shaft then just deep dimples in the shaft where the clamp bolts go in would do it.

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44 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Why do you want to start welding bits on. If in the long term you were worried about the boss coming off the top of the shaft then just deep dimples in the shaft where the clamp bolts go in would do it.

 

Or even drill and tap the top of the shaft so a large "washer" could be bolted on. At least that or your dimples (that may already be there) do not make it all but impossible to get the swan neck off without a grinder to remove the said welds. That suggestion reminds me of what REME was said to stand for when I worked for them.

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Innisfree had that type of top bearing, quite common. The two lower nuts position the plate which is welded to lower half of bearing holder, removing the four bolts allows top half of holder to be lifted off, then plastic bearing can be replaced (after swan neck is removed of course) 

 

ETA: Bearing is spherical to accommodate various angles of rudder shaft. 

Edited by nb Innisfree
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2 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Innisfree had that type of top bearing, quite common. The two lower nuts position the plate which is welded to lower half of bearing holder, removing the four bolts allows top half of holder to be lifted off, then plastic bearing can be replaced (after swan neck is removed of course) 

 

That is what I thought , the question is how easily the stock/shaft will slide through the bearing without taking the four nuts off  on the OP's boat. I think I  would undo the four nuts to be sure it would all lift as easily as it can.

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If it slid through easily less chance of the stock getting bent. When a rudder blade gets cilled it;s often caught on the trailing end of it, which gives more leverage to bend the stock.   Those stupid cill markers in my my opinion are mainly to blame for cilled rudders and the number of boats sunk in locks since they were introduced. Without the markers folk kept their boats well up forwards when decending in a lock, just in case if they didn't know the extent of the cill, instead of now many folk judge too close to it and a little backwards movement and Bingo, caught on it.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is what I thought , the question is how easily the stock/shaft will slide through the bearing without taking the four nuts off  on the OP's boat. I think I  would undo the four nuts to be sure it would all lift as easily as it can.

Yes I agree, it would require removal of four bolts, not nuts. Removal wouldn't be necessary, just slacken them off to their full length 

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46 minutes ago, bizzard said:

If it slid through easily less chance of the stock getting bent. When a rudder blade gets cilled it;s often caught on the trailing end of it, which gives more leverage to bend the stock.   Those stupid cill markers in my my opinion are mainly to blame for cilled rudders and the number of boats sunk in locks since they were introduced. Without the markers folk kept their boats well up forwards when decending in a lock, just in case if they didn't know the extent of the cill, instead of now many folk judge too close to it and a little backwards movement and Bingo, caught on it.

I've only caught it once, felt it sliding slowly upwards, closing paddles would have taken too long so instead I put full forward revs on and waggled the tiller like mad, a controlled panic if you like, did the job, phew! 

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Havn't got a picture unfortunately, but a narrowboat moored next to my old boat had the rudder tube in welded brackets on the outside of the stern.

I thought this a sensible and easily maintainable arrangement.

I think the boat was a Springer.

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I think many, if not all of the Springer Water Bugs were like that.  The six Harris Bros built riveted pleasure boats built in 1960 and 1961 had a very similar arrangement when delivered.  Modern Black Prince craft seem to have the rudder stock in  a rectangular recess with the aft face open. Makes getting the stock out to straighten it easier apparently.

N

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