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Advice needed on kitting out a narrowboat


Paul3704

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Hi,

I recently inherited a narrowboat off a family member who died. I've been on the narrowboat a fair few times when he was alive, and have a basic understanding of how navigating a canal works.

Before I got the boat, it was left for a few years, and in all honesty fell into disrepair (it was last used for cruising in 2019). He bought the boat in 2007, and because of his 'frugal' nature, did very little with it other than take pleasure in travelling.

I want to do the boat up and bring it up-to-date - but I'm really not sure where to start. I got use of the boat in August 2021 and since then:
- I've had the engine checked and serviced - it's fine.
- Had it lifted out of the water, glassblasted, some welding, treated, painted, blacked and new anodes fitted.
- Ripped the existing interior out (except the electrics at the back, cylinder and wood burner).
- Had the water and fuel tank integrity checked - again they're fine.
- Removed the insulation - which was polystyrene sheets and rockwool.

I have a plan of how I want the final layout to look, but need some practical advice before I get to that part. It's 48' long overall with roughly 36' internal space. Built in 1991, once it was blasted, it looked in pretty good condition. Next step is treating the inside metalwork, replacing some of the windows and rebalancing the ballast (it leans one way slightly) and replacing the floor.

After that it's the insulation, power, heating and hot water - and this is the bit where I'm WAY out of my depth as there's so many different types all of which have conflicting reports information from the manufacturers. After researching myself, this is what I'm thinking:

Insulation - I was looking at having it sprayed, but I'm now leaning towards Kingspan because I'm guaranteed the thickness.
Hot water - cylinder connected to the engine with a 12v immersion as a back up which will feed a shower and supply two basins.
Power - solar panels with a standalone back up generator. I was looking at the flexible panels so I can at least see past them when I'm cruising, but there's a fair few comments on here prefering the fixed panels, and when I look in the marina - none of the boats have the flexible panels. Is there a reason for that? I was looking at getting most appliances to run on 12v, but having a 240v loop for a TV and sockets.
Heating - going to keep the log burner, but as a secondary source, was looking at a diesel hot air blower with three outlets (bedroom, bathroom and living area).

Any thoughts or advice before I start committing? Am I missing something glaringly obvious which is a big no-no?
 

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8 minutes ago, Paul3704 said:

Hot water - cylinder connected to the engine with a 12v immersion as a back up which will feed a shower and supply two basins.

 

No, No, thrice NO. do not use 12 volts to heat water it will kill your batteries, if you must habe an immersion then use a 230v one but ENSURE you only ever use it when you are connected to a hook-up (shoreline)

 

9 minutes ago, Paul3704 said:

Heating - going to keep the log burner, but as a secondary source, was looking at a diesel hot air blower with three outlets (bedroom, bathroom and living area).

 

For your diesel heater get a 'water' one rather than an 'air' one. Same price, but this time you have radiators (dry your clothes) and "unlimited" hot water for showers, pot washing etc and no need to run the engine. Basically it is the boat version of a domestic oil-fired central heating system.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Paul3704 said:

rebalancing the ballast (it leans one way slightly) and replacing the floor.

 

You cannot re-balance the boat until it is fully fitted out - you will have all the weight of the bedroom, bathroom, toilet, kitchen furniture etc to consider - because of the narrowness of a Narrow boat it is not easy to zig-zag the weight across the boat and you'll find (probably) that the bathroom, bedroom and kitchen will all be weight biased to one side.

All you can do is estimate the weight of all your new fittings and their location and put in the best-guess ballast distribution you can. leave the floor unsecured (or a reasonable sized hatch) in each 'room' so that you can reaach in and shift the ballast around.

YOU WILL need to move your ballast once you have fitted everything.

 

19 minutes ago, Paul3704 said:

with a standalone back up generator.

 

What sort of generator are you planning on ?

Be aware of the very stringent legislation on using and storing petrol on boats.

Be aware of the high risks of Carbon Monoxide (CO) poisoning from generator fumes - NEVER run the generator on board the boat, lift it off and run it on the bankside and downwind of your boat.

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Flexible solar panels are more than 5x as expensive as rigid ones for the same output, which is why most boaters use rigid. They also have a reputation for having short lifetime unless carefully/professionally/expensively installed.

 

Flexible ones can look a lot better but you really pay a lot of money for this.

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Glad you’re keeping the boat going and sounds like you want to do things properly 👍

 

My idea is always to keep things simple. 
Why the need to rely on more than 12v when out cruising?
I have a 48’ boat and the stove alone is enough to keep me warm. (It is midships mind 😃).

So why complicate things?

For hot water I have a Poloma. 

It’s gas and instant. Simple. 
Flexi solar panels work well and combined with cruising and the engine running has meant I’ve never needed a generator (that includes winter time). 

Just keep it as simple you can. 
 

But I do wish I had good access throughout the boat to get under the flooring. 

 

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Insulation: Kingspan.  Much easier than spray foam in a not new boat.  Fill any gaps with gun grade canned foam and tape joins with ally tape. Insulate everything, including the water tank.

 

Floor: 18mm WBP good one side plywood on treated timber battens. Draw your planned layout full size on the floor before you fix it down. Leave a lot of access hatches where you will be able to get at them.  Ensure one is right at the back of the living space.

 

Plan your cable routes before you start.  You will need surprisingly large cables, to prevent excess voltage drop. Especially to a compressor fridge. Allow space to add more cables.

 

Forget flexible solar panels.  There is a reason they only have a 1 year warranty. Rigid ones usually a 25 year warranty.

Try to install stuff like water pumps and accumulates where you can get at them

Remember you need to get a BSS certificate for a licence, so read the requirements carefully, and understand the examiners checking list in detail. Do not do anything novel without getting advice from the examiner you intend to use.

Buy the best tools you can afford.

 

Expect the fit out to take 4 times and long, and cost twice as much as you hoped.

 

Good Luck.  Fitting out is great fun.

N

 

 

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I like spray foam as insulation, if you have a written agreement for min thickness AND you are there when it is applied you can ensure it meets the agreed thickness.  Be upfront about this - it may cost a bit more as you are using more stuff and time.  I also agreed to trim back the excess myself, as it is a crappy job and another incentive to spray a bit thin.  Just buy a couple of bread knives and a big roll of bin bags.  

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Another thing to keep in mind when choosing between spray foam and Kingspan is the time it will take to do a good job with the later. Either a lot of your time, or a lot of expensive some one else time. Depends how much time or money you can spare for insulating. Spray foam is quick and you are paying some one else to do it. With a thickness guarantee and checking their work as @Chewbacka says.

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3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Two books it is worth reading. Both by Graham Booth. Narrowboat Planning and Narrowboat Builders Book. Both are a little dated in places now, but they will give you lots of ideas. I used them when planning and doing the fit out of my boat.

Jen

Dated? Prehistoric.  But useful for lighting the fire.

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Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.
 

On 16/01/2022 at 16:20, Alan de Enfield said:

No, No, thrice NO. do not use 12 volts to heat water it will kill your batteries, if you must habe an immersion then use a 230v one but ENSURE you only ever use it when you are connected to a hook-up (shoreline)


I'm not planning on a shore hook up at all, though there is an external feed for one at the moment. Fair point on the immersion and batteries. In that case, a dual coil cylinder - one connected to the water feed from the engine, the other to a diesel boiler, seems the way forward.

 

On 16/01/2022 at 16:20, Alan de Enfield said:

What sort of generator are you planning on ?


I've got a portable Honda I've used a few times. Does the trick when you're stuck.

 

On 16/01/2022 at 17:02, Goliath said:

My idea is always to keep things simple. 

I have a 48’ boat and the stove alone is enough to keep me warm. (It is midships mind 😃).


Yeah, my plan is to get it done right and then keep it simple. The stove is at the front of the boat, and I quite like it there. It's more the back of the boat in the morning. Tried to Google Poloma but end up falling into a wormhole. Do you have a link? Are there any boiler systems to avoid?

 

On 16/01/2022 at 17:06, BEngo said:

Insulation: Kingspan.  Much easier than spray foam in a not new boat. 


Yeah, I'm leaning this way more and more. I'm thinking 30mm as it would cover the iron struts.

 

On 16/01/2022 at 17:06, BEngo said:

Forget flexible solar panels.  There is a reason they only have a 1 year warranty. Rigid ones usually a 25 year warranty.


I love the idea of flat panels on the roof, but I think you're right about the longevity. In that case, the adjustable ones seem like a plan. I'm assuming you lie them 'flat' when cruising?

 

On 16/01/2022 at 22:40, Ianws said:

You can get 12v TVs. Probably not 56" monsters but you wouldn't get the optimal viewing distance for one that big on most narrowboats.


Yeah, not looking at a beast of a thing, just a 24" thing for occasional use. 12V seems the job, along with a 12v fridge.

I've been looking at control panels, and they all seem much a muchness - so that seems straight forward. Water and heating seems the most confusing. The ideal solution would be a diesel combi boiler, but they seem horrifically expensive - though they would remove the cylinder creating space. Any brands that you've used and would recommend? The ones I've seen are all between 3k & 4k.

Again, thanks for your help.

 

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16 minutes ago, Paul3704 said:

I love the idea of flat panels on the roof, but I think you're right about the longevity. In that case, the adjustable ones seem like a plan. I'm assuming you lie them 'flat' when cruising?

 

Just fix them flat. Much neater, more secure against wind, you don't have to worry about constantly reangling them, and the output isn't a lot less.

On 16/01/2022 at 16:00, Paul3704 said:

I was looking at getting most appliances to run on 12v, but having a 240v loop for a TV and sockets.

So what do you need 240V sockets for?  12V TVs are available (many mains TVs are 12V anyway, running off a power brick). That said you may want 240V to run a mains fridge. Much cheaper to buy and more choice than 12V fridges. But you will need an inverter.

Also makes sense these days to provide USB sockets for phone charging etc.

Edited by David Mack
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On 16/01/2022 at 17:02, Goliath said:

Glad you’re keeping the boat going and sounds like you want to do things properly 👍

 

My idea is always to keep things simple. 
Why the need to rely on more than 12v when out cruising?
I have a 48’ boat and the stove alone is enough to keep me warm. (It is midships mind 😃).

So why complicate things?

For hot water I have a Poloma. 

It’s gas and instant. Simple. 
Flexi solar panels work well and combined with cruising and the engine running has meant I’ve never needed a generator (that includes winter time). 

Just keep it as simple you can. 
 

But I do wish I had good access throughout the boat to get under the flooring. 

 

I could have written that! Its all good advice. I would add that when choosing a loo think carefully about pumps, wires, vacuums, separate tanks and fiddly stuff because you WILL be taking it apart and although a galvanised bucket might be a bit too basic these days there is much to be said for a cassette loo. In fact you will be taking lots of the sophisticated stuff apart from time to time so keep it simple, keep the access to stuff easy and spend time on the floor so you can lift nice big panels. Good luck.

Edited by Bee
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1 hour ago, Paul3704 said:

The stove is at the front of the boat, and I quite like it there. It's more the back of the boat in the morning. Tried to Google Poloma but end up falling into a wormhole. Do you have a link? Are there any boiler systems to avoid?

My spelling mistake it’s Paloma. 

There are other modern equivalents to the old Paloma I have, I’m not so much suggesting you get a Paloma but more pointing out the convenience and simplicity of instant hot water. 👍

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Paul3704 said:

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.
 


I'm not planning on a shore hook up at all, though there is an external feed for one at the moment. Fair point on the immersion and batteries. In that case, a dual coil cylinder - one connected to the water feed from the engine, the other to a diesel boiler, seems the way forward.

 


I've got a portable Honda I've used a few times. Does the trick when you're stuck.

 

 

 

Get one with an immersion heater boss fitted and a 1Kw immersion heater fitted, you may find it useful later, even the genny could feed it whilst charging the batteries

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3 hours ago, Paul3704 said:

Water and heating seems the most confusing. The ideal solution would be a diesel combi boiler, but they seem horrifically expensive - though they would remove the cylinder creating space. Any brands that you've used and would recommend? The ones I've seen are all between 3k & 4k.
 

 

In keeping with the KIS (keep it simple) advice already given, forget a diesel combi boiler. Too complicated and too power hungry, and it's against the grain.....if you ever sell the boat everyone will factor in the cost of removing it. Plus no hot water cylinder = no free hot water when the engine is running. I'd stick with the standard dual coil cylinder with 1kw immersion and an Eberspacher or Webasto (some say Eberspachers are slightly more reliable than Webasto but I'm not sure). If you wanted you could fit a dual 240v/12v immersion. That way if you ever have a large solar array you can use the excess power in summer to heat water.   

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If fitting / using kingspan you have to really seal the inside to prevent air circulating behind it from the bilge etc as that will lead to condensation on the side of the steel. Spray foam leaves no gap there, and narrow boats do rust from inside as well as outside.

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