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Newbie with questions!


joxley1990

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Hi all, 

 

Thank you for taking the time to open my post. 

 

My name is James, I am 31 and currently live in the Altrincham area (on land!).

 

After a long think, I have decided that I would like to purchase and live on a narrowboat in the area. I am wanting to stay in the area due to family living here, and also because of work commitments. I am a lift engineer and I am based in the North, so working from home is not an option for me.

 

I have always lived in the area and do not want to move from it. The house prices here are eye-watering, and I have come to realise over the past few years that buying some where round here, even a small apartment, is extremely difficult, if not impossible on my own. So, after ALOT of thought, I have concluded that living on a narrowboat in the area, or relatively close makes sense.

 

I have always been an outdoor personality type, and I prefer rustic living instead of modern and flashy apartments/houses. The idea of the lifestyle appeals to me more and more I think about it. The thought of the rain hammering down on the roof while a stove is roaring away is bliss, but also the sun beaming down through an open deck door sounds incredible. 

 

So, I have read up, and watched countless youtube videos for the past few weeks, and it still appeals to me, but I would love some feedback from people who are actually living the canal life!

 

I will not bombard my first post with a thousand questions, as I will explore the forum as I am sure some of my questions will have been asked and answered before now. 

 

I am swayed toward a semi traditional 50ft. However, feedback on boat size would be great. I will be on my own, but I do not want to feel cramped. Is this size about right for a live on?

 

Undecided on buying one thats ready to go and needs minimal personalisation, or whether to buy one that is run down (interior wise) and for me to fit it out exactly as I want. 

 

Pricing - I have found some really nice ones in the region of £35-40k, however, feedback is appreciated. I have only looked on sale websites that come up first after a google search.

 

Lifestyle - pro's and con's please?

 

Any help would be wonderful. I would love to connect with people that I can have a good chat with. 

 

Thanks again,

 

James. 

 

 

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Are you looking at taking a permanent mooring or being a continuous cruiser?

Be aware that you cannot CC on the Bridgewater Canal, and unless you have a Bridgewater Canal mooring you are limited as to the time you can spend there (under the reciprocal licencing agreement with CRT).

 

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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Are you looking at taking a permanent mooring or being a continuous cruiser?

Be aware that you cannot CC on the Bridgewater Canal, and unless you have a Bridgewater Canal mooring you are limited as to the time you can spend there (under the reciprocal licencing agreement with CRT).

 

Hi David,

 

Permanent mooring to start with. I would like to get used to living on a boat before I consider venturing out. I would like to stay as close to Timperley as I can due to family etc in the area. 

9 minutes ago, booke23 said:

If you are intending to CC, have you tried it yet by hiring a boat? Although come to think I'm not sure many would hire to a first timer who is intending to single hand. 

 Hi, no intentions to CC straight away. I went on a narrowboat holiday many years ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. I cannot see why I would not enjoy living on.

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52 minutes ago, joxley1990 said:

Hi David,

 

Permanent mooring to start with. I would like to get used to living on a boat before I consider venturing out. I would like to stay as close to Timperley as I can due to family etc in the area. 

 

These are the approved moorings on the Bridgewater Canal.

http://www.bridgewatercanal.co.uk/boating/mooring

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2 hours ago, joxley1990 said:

 

I am swayed toward a semi traditional 50ft. However, feedback on boat size would be great. I will be on my own, but I do not want to feel cramped. Is this size about right for a live on?

 

 

You can live on a 50ft boat but you'd have much more usable space on 60ft and you'd probably be happier. 

 

I lived on a 45ft trad for 3 years and the problem is you're always in the same space. With 60+ foot you've got another "room" to walk into. That makes a psychological difference - it does to me anyway. 

 

A small boat is fine in summer when you can sit outside on deck, but cabin fever can easily set in during winter and if you decide to get out of the boat and sit in a pub it just costs you money.

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1 hour ago, joxley1990 said:

 I went on a narrowboat holiday many years ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. I cannot see why I would not enjoy living on.

 

Well that holiday many years ago would have been in the summer, when you wouldn't have had to walk down a half mile of muddy towpath to get to a shop, then haul a 25 kg propane cylinder back to the boat, or spend half a day cruising to the nearest water point and back in the freezing rain because you just ran out, etc etc. Just sayin' that winter boating is very different to summer boating, and going into it with your eyes wide open is a good strategy!  

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Hopefully in winter he'd be at his mooring which might have its own water point and be he'd able to drive to the shops and haul the gas bottle back in his car. That what I do in winter anyway. There no need to suffer just because you live on a boat.

Edited by blackrose
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43 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

Well that holiday many years ago would have been in the summer, when you wouldn't have had to walk down a half mile of muddy towpath to get to a shop, then haul a 25 kg propane cylinder back to the boat, or spend half a day cruising to the nearest water point and back in the freezing rain because you just ran out, etc etc. Just sayin' that winter boating is very different to summer boating, and going into it with your eyes wide open is a good strategy!  

I really welcome and appreciate your comments and views, thank you very much for your honest opinion. I am wise enough to realise that I need to take the rough with the smooth, and I feel like the smooth is enough to outweigh the rough at the moment. A bit of graft and walking back and to from essentials doesn't phase me at all. All part of outdoor life I feel.  

53 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

You can live on a 50ft boat but you'd have much more usable space on 60ft and you'd probably be happier. 

 

I lived on a 45ft trad for 3 years and the problem is you're always in the same space. With 60+ foot you've got another "room" to walk into. That makes a psychological difference - it does to me anyway. 

 

A small boat is fine in summer when you can sit outside on deck, but cabin fever can easily set in during winter and if you decide to get out of the boat and sit in a pub it just costs you money.

Thank you for your reply. The reason I have fixed on a 50ft is because I have read that anything above can sometimes cause a pain in locks if you are on your own, given the allowance needed for the cill etc. Furthermore, 50ft seems more within my price range. There are some amazing 60ft for sale, but slightly out of my price preference any maybe for sale for more experienced people?

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For a livaboard boat then a trad stern has many advantages, especially if you do go for a shorter boat. If you don't have kids/grandkids/cruising friends etc then a trad stern makes even more sense.

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33 minutes ago, joxley1990 said:

I really welcome and appreciate your comments and views, thank you very much for your honest opinion. I am wise enough to realise that I need to take the rough with the smooth, and I feel like the smooth is enough to outweigh the rough at the moment. A bit of graft and walking back and to from essentials doesn't phase me at all. All part of outdoor life I feel.  

Thank you for your reply. The reason I have fixed on a 50ft is because I have read that anything above can sometimes cause a pain in locks if you are on your own, given the allowance needed for the cill etc. Furthermore, 50ft seems more within my price range. There are some amazing 60ft for sale, but slightly out of my price preference any maybe for sale for more experienced people?


A 57ft boat can go virtually everywhere in the system. A 70ft boat can go on a great deal of the system and gives a lot more space. 

You also need to consider that in todays market £35-£40k is the lower end of the market. While you can buy a 50-60ft boat for this price, It will likely be over 30 years old and most probably closer to 40 years old with all the inherent (expensive) problems and pitfalls. A good surveyor is a must. 

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4 hours ago, joxley1990 said:

Undecided on buying one thats ready to go and needs minimal personalisation, or whether to buy one that is run down (interior wise) and for me to fit it out exactly as I want

Maybe go for the one that needs minimal work on it?

If working full time it might be better to relax by taking a boat out for a few hours rather than having to work on it. 
You’ll also be ready for a quick sale if you don’t get on with it.  
You can always meddle with the layout of a boat later on. 
 

 

Edited by Goliath
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8 hours ago, joxley1990 said:

I really welcome and appreciate your comments and views, thank you very much for your honest opinion. I am wise enough to realise that I need to take the rough with the smooth, and I feel like the smooth is enough to outweigh the rough at the moment. A bit of graft and walking back and to from essentials doesn't phase me at all. All part of outdoor life I feel.  

Thank you for your reply. The reason I have fixed on a 50ft is because I have read that anything above can sometimes cause a pain in locks if you are on your own, given the allowance needed for the cill etc. Furthermore, 50ft seems more within my price range. There are some amazing 60ft for sale, but slightly out of my price preference any maybe for sale for more experienced people?

 

We had a 54ft boat and it had a sitting room at the back, a double bedroom plus the day cabin with a dinette at the front, plus galley and toilet with A bath/shower. I had no problems single handing it and it was our first narrow boat after five separate weeks of hiring. I find the longer the boat the slightly easier it is to handle. I would suggest that you look a boats 50 to 60 ft long and don't get too hung up on the 50ft thing.

 

It was an ex hire boat with beds in the back cabin that I converted to a sitting room with a pair of bed chairs that I bolted together to form a settee when not needed a single beds.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Don't get 'hung-up' on length.

The boat layout makes a huge difference.

 

We went out looking for a 'go-anywhere' 57 footer, called in at one marina who didn't have any that size but said 'have a look at this 45 footer', we said "losing 10 feet would be a big problem, but we are here so lets look".

 

The layout just worked, it was ''set up for two' & there was so much more space than many of the 57 footers we had looked at so we paid cash and bought it on the spot, no survey. Never regretted it.

 

We were not full time livaboards but being retired we would have 4-6 months every summer and a few odd weeks / weekends during the Winter 'living' on board.

There was plenty of room for the two of us and the dog.

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As Alan says, so much depends upon design. Many boats seem to waste a lot of potential living space at the front. A large forepeak used as a water tank or gas locker then a large front cockpit before the front bulkhead. Our boat had a small chain locker at the front, then the cockpit was smaller than many, maybe 2ft 6 in long. That put the bulkhead in front of where the bow turns in so the cabin side also needed to taper in a little. I think that plus a shorter cruiser stern deck gave us maybe another 3ft of accommodation.  However the smaller stern cockpit did mean there was only space for a three cylinder engine but it still had all the power I ever needed. I think most narrow boats are over powered these days.

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11 hours ago, joxley1990 said:

Thank you for your reply. The reason I have fixed on a 50ft is because I have read that anything above can sometimes cause a pain in locks if you are on your own, given the allowance needed for the cill etc. Furthermore, 50ft seems more within my price range. There are some amazing 60ft for sale, but slightly out of my price preference any maybe for sale for more experienced people?

 

Unless you specifically want to cruise the (very few) short-lock waterways, I'd suggest looking at longer boats than 50-57ft. Anything under 57ft commands a premium over longer boats as most newbies imagine they want a boat that will 'go anywhere' when in actual fact most of us turn out to be perfectly happy with the 95% of canals that 70ft boats fit. Best length of all is 68ft, as this give you some slack space in 72ft locks.

 

Also, I'd suggest a trad as to live aboard, maximising the interior space is a Good Thing. Otherwise you are paying licence and mooring fees on 7ft of outside boat you'll only use 1% of the time, given you plan on living on a home mooring. 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, MtB said:

Also, I'd suggest a trad as to live aboard, maximising the interior space is a Good Thing. Otherwise you are paying licence and mooring fees on 7ft of outside boat you'll only use 1% of the time, given you plan on living on a home mooring. 

 

Having had both Trads and Cruiser sterns, I do not see a great deal of difference in internal space.

 

The engine, gearbox & batteries  have to go somewhere, on a cruiser sterned boat they live under the cruiser deck, (which can become an extra room / drying room in the Winter with the addition of a canopy). Whilst on a 'Trad' sterned boat they all live 'inside the boat' and the actual living space is little affected.

The only 'internal' benefit I see is with a true (traditional) Trad with an engine room in that you have somewhere to dry the washing - but space wise it takes up a the same proportion of the space.

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40 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Unless you specifically want to cruise the (very few) short-lock waterways, I'd suggest looking at longer boats than 50-57ft. Anything under 57ft commands a premium over longer boats as most newbies imagine they want a boat that will 'go anywhere' when in actual fact most of us turn out to be perfectly happy with the 95% of canals that 70ft boats fit. Best length of all is 68ft, as this give you some slack space in 72ft locks.

 

Also, I'd suggest a trad as to live aboard, maximising the interior space is a Good Thing. Otherwise you are paying licence and mooring fees on 7ft of outside boat you'll only use 1% of the time, given you plan on living on a home mooring. 

 

 

60ft will go pretty much anywhere (with some care, not single-handed), even on the Northern canals, a shorter boat like 50-52ft is easier single-handed (but has less space). If you're never going to go Up North, 68/70/72' gives significantly more room, and again a bit shorter is easier in locks.

 

A trad with the engine under the rear deck gives more internal storage space but not *that* much more living space (down to floor level), because the engine compartment still stops about 7ft from the stern, and engine access can be difficult. But if you're mainly on your own it's probably the best solution overall, and a cruiser stern is probably the worst -- semi-trad is in between and has different pros and cons again. A trad with an engine room offers yet another set of compromises but isn't very space-efficient and chops the boat into two internally -- fine if you want a traditional back cabin, also doesn't work so well in shorter boats.

 

All narrowboats are a compromise and there's no perfect solution, you have to decide what matters most to you.

Edited by IanD
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If based near Altrincham, there are pretty trips across the Pennines for which you'll want a boat not much longer than 57' but no need to go shorter really unless you find an ideal mooring or ideal boat that's only 50'. The other nearby canals are built for 72' boats.

 

Boat prices have gone up recently so £35-40k boats which are worth it sell quickly. Hull condition and reliable engines are more important than superficially pretty appearances.

 

Lifestyle-wise

 

- For me the best bit is actually cruising the boat and exploring different parts of the country. Your work might limit that a bit, although there are nice stretches of canal on the edge of Manchester.

- On the plus side, if you find yourself a mooring with an electricity supply it'll make one of the more difficult learning curves for new boaters (managing electricity) easier.

- Boaters are generally friendly and helpful and often a pleasure to chat to whilst going through locks, though most of them are a fair bit older than you. Lots of curious members of the public will ask you questions whilst their dogs sniff at your boat too!

- Emptying toilets isn't fun, it can be very cold when the fire's out or at the other end of the boat (a radiator system powered by diesel heaters helps a lot, but costs in fuel and needs a surprising amount of electricity to run). Plenty of practical maintenance tasks to attend to or figure out what's wrong too, but I guess if you're a lift engineer you're not afraid if that!

- the costs of owning the boat including mooring and license may not be that much better than renting

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I would go for a 'full trad' hull type -for  why:-

 

A semi-trad IME suffers from an uncomfortable seating area at the rear - not the least because the hull sides and top make it uncomfortable to sit at the rear and makes working on the engine awkward at the best

 

OTOH

 

A full trad makes use of the space above the engine to store 'stuff' / somewhere to put a washing machine (etc) and other bulky stuff.

 

A more practical compromise would be to have a cruiser stern with a pram hood which covers the steerer and guests in inclement weather - but less for storage as it's insecure...

 

For liveaboard / CCing a full trad hull is best...

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Stick to your plan for size roughly 50ft ish, max 55ft. Go anywhere, easier to find moorings and easier to handle in locks, cheaper license. Simple. Probably slightly cheaper too as Newbies think they need a 57-60ft with no experience of living on one. A well planned out 50 is perfectly suitable for a livaboard. 
  Trad stern slightly better for a single person, nothing wrong with a Semi(get a cover and store your coal in the winter) Stay away from cruiser stern. Get a normal layout not reverse and use the front deck to sit and relax, try to get as big a saloon as possible, don’t concentrate on bedroom and bathroom, your hardly in them, so priority is living area. Don’t buy anything that needs overplating, waste of money and puts no value on price as still an old boat. 
Modern engine not an old Lister or anything vintage, you don’t want to waste money and time with too much maintenance/repairs. Speak to someone that knows boats and is reliable, not someone that has lived on one for a few month and watch’s YouTube. Good Luck.

Edited by PD1964
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24 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

I would go for a 'full trad' hull type -for  why:-

 

A semi-trad IME suffers from an uncomfortable seating area at the rear - not the least because the hull sides and top make it uncomfortable to sit at the rear and makes working on the engine awkward at the best

 

That depends on the specific design. The benches I've seen in some semi trads do look uncomfortable, but mine has two comfy tractor seats and a spacious engine bay, with more space for guests to stand than most cruiser sterns all safely enclosed. The tradeoff is no storage lockers

Edited by enigmatic
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13 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

I would go for a 'full trad' hull type -for  why:-

 

A semi-trad IME suffers from an uncomfortable seating area at the rear - not the least because the hull sides and top make it uncomfortable to sit at the rear and makes working on the engine awkward at the best

 

OTOH

 

A full trad makes use of the space above the engine to store 'stuff' / somewhere to put a washing machine (etc) and other bulky stuff.

 

A more practical compromise would be to have a cruiser stern with a pram hood which covers the steerer and guests in inclement weather - but less for storage as it's insecure...

 

For liveaboard / CCing a full trad hull is best...

So a semi-trad makes working on the engine awkward but having a washing machine and other bulky stuff above the engine in a trad with the engine in a box doesn't -- how does that work?

 

If you're travelling with other people -- sometimes more than one -- and want to be sociable at the stern, a trad doesn't work so well, but this doesn't apply to the OP.

 

All three types of stern have different advantages and disadvantages depending on what use you want to make of the boat -- some people swear by trad, some by semi-trad, some by cruiser.

 

Statements like "a full trad is best" are not helpful to somebody trying to make a choice -- what this actually means is "I think a full trad is best for me", that doesn't mean its best for everyone... 😉

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8 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

 

That depends on the specific design. The benches I've seen in some semi trads do look uncomfortable, but mine has two comfy tractor seats and a spacious engine bay, with more space for guests to stand than most cruiser sterns all safely enclosed. The tradeoff is no storage lockers

You can make the seats more comfortable on a semi-trad by having proper seat backs instead of an inwards-sloping cabin side with an uncomfortable bar at the top, but most boatbuilders don't bother because it costs more money -- and can also restrict the access hatch width, depending how this is all done e.g. whether the lift-up seats/lids overhang the lockers or not.

 

Cruiser sterns are cold and wet in bad weather, and you can get really soaked going down a lock with leaky top gates, especially if the boat fills it -- with a trad or semi-trad you can stand inside the doors and keep dry. But they're great on a nice sunny day...

 

Horses for courses 😉

Edited by IanD
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3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Unless you specifically want to cruise the (very few) short-lock waterways, I'd suggest looking at longer boats than 50-57ft. Anything under 57ft commands a premium over longer boats as most newbies imagine they want a boat that will 'go anywhere' when in actual fact most of us turn out to be perfectly happy with the 95% of canals that 70ft boats fit. Best length of all is 68ft, as this give you some slack space in 72ft locks.

 

Also, I'd suggest a trad as to live aboard, maximising the interior space is a Good Thing. Otherwise you are paying licence and mooring fees on 7ft of outside boat you'll only use 1% of the time, given you plan on living on a home mooring. 

 

 

Completely agree apart from the trad stern, my favourite was always cruiser. However 68 foot is perfection, followed by 70 and then the rest. I think the OP can find any other stuff out tats already been posted on earlier threads. Widebeam even better apart from cruising range of course.

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