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Have I seriously poisoned myself?


RickS

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Firstly, great to know that OP is safe and has swiftly identified and remedied what could easily have been a lethal issue.

 

I guess part of the problem is that nobody really likes dealing with waterlogged ash, and we get a lot of rain in the UK. Just pour ash into an open bucket on the front deck and it's going to get wet. If you've got a cratch cover,  you'll fill that area with CO and some will then seep back into the cabin via the vents. I have in the past been entirely guilty of emptying and storing a bag in a bucket, containing stone cold ash from a few days dead fire, and keeping it inside the boat prior to disposal but anything that was a 'hot emptying' went in a galv bucket and stayed outside. A large upturned baking tray and weight kept the worst of the rain off. And yes, trying to pour ash, whether inside a house or a boat will always create a reasonable dust cloud, so best done outside, regardless of CO risk.

 

To the OP, I wouldn't think that running the fire with the door open when it's not necessary is that wise, even though it's pretty. They can spit sparks without warning and I once had one jam open after refuelling. Even with a clean flue, quite a bit of smoke ended up in the cabin in the seconds that it took me to grab my welding gloves and grips to hold the door and move it back into correct alignment and close it. Design flaw and vibrations over years having worked a nut loose. The proper fix turned out to be simple when it cooled down.

 

Stoves are great and I really miss one on the small GRP boats I use now but proper maintenance and ash storage are key to safety. A few things I always kept in mind

 

Clean flue and chimney allowing proper airflow.

Undamaged (or properly repaired) casing to stove, plates present, align properly and movable as intended

All cement and rope in good condition

Good quality dry wood or commercial fuel

Hot ash removed and stored in a safe open area in a metal container. Must be days old and stone cold prior to bagging and binning. Hence why for any real leisure cruise or liveaboard, two metal buckets/containers would usually be required.

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I have a "Tippy" ash container that I keep outside whilst in use. Yes, it's overpriced and cheaper copies are available, but it's given years of faultless use. It also fits behind my stove when not in use. 

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52 minutes ago, Slim said:

I have a "Tippy" ash container that I keep outside whilst in use. Yes, it's overpriced and cheaper copies are available, but it's given years of faultless use. It also fits behind my stove when not in use. 

Yes that’s what we have too. Does the job well. It’s lasted 10 years so far, I can’t remember the price but over 10 years it’s insignificant.

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1 hour ago, BilgePump said:

Firstly, great to know that OP is safe and has swiftly identified and remedied what could easily have been a lethal issue.

 

I guess part of the problem is that nobody really likes dealing with waterlogged ash, and we get a lot of rain in the UK. Just pour ash into an open bucket on the front deck and it's going to get wet. If you've got a cratch cover,  you'll fill that area with CO and some will then seep back into the cabin via the vents. I have in the past been entirely guilty of emptying and storing a bag in a bucket, containing stone cold ash from a few days dead fire, and keeping it inside the boat prior to disposal but anything that was a 'hot emptying' went in a galv bucket and stayed outside. A large upturned baking tray and weight kept the worst of the rain off. And yes, trying to pour ash, whether inside a house or a boat will always create a reasonable dust cloud, so best done outside, regardless of CO risk.

 

To the OP, I wouldn't think that running the fire with the door open when it's not necessary is that wise, even though it's pretty. 

All cement and rope in good condition

 


The other thing about running a stove with the door open is that it’s massively inefficient because a lot of hot air goes up the chimney. A good stove is around 80-something % efficient with the door closed, and 25% efficient with it open. You might feel more radiant heat with the door open, but all that warm cabin air disappears and is replaced by cold outside air through the vents.

 

I dislike cement for sealing flues etc. Dreadful stuff! It always cracks after a year or two. I used high temperature silicone (Envirograf) about 9 years ago and this year when I had to remove the flue, it was still in perfect condition, well bonded and in fact not that easy to get off.

Edited by nicknorman
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7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:


The other thing about running a stove with the door open is that it’s massively inefficient because a lot of hot air goes up the chimney. A good stove is around 80-something % efficient with the door closed, and 25% efficient with it open. You might feel more radiant heat with the door open, but all that warm cabin air disappears and is replaced by cold outside air through the vents.

 

I dislike cement for sealing flues etc. Dreadful stuff! It always cracks after a year or two. I used high temperature silicone about 9 years ago and this year when I had to remove the flue, it was still in perfect condition, well bonded and in fact not that easy to get off.

Agree on both those points. I have a small open fire in the lounge at home. Nice and pretty but would be a useless primary heat source for the room. It can eat wood when going and doesn't increase the room temp massively. Nothing like the temp increase a small cast iron stove could achieve, run on the same amount of fuel and using it more economically.

 

The stove cement did need replacing regularly on ours as it would crack. We never got round to more modern high temp sealants back then and no stove now but can imagine why you would be much happier with it instead of the old cement.

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1 hour ago, BilgePump said:

 

I guess part of the problem is that nobody really likes dealing with waterlogged ash, and we get a lot of rain in the UK. Just pour ash into an open bucket on the front deck and it's going to get wet. 

 

It's not an insurmountable problem is it? Just put a brick on top if you're worried about the lid being blown away in the wind.

 

IMG_20220109_122349.jpg

Edited by blackrose
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One of the problems I imagined you could encounter with those buckets was that the top would fill up with rainwater. We always meant to get a small metal dustbin with a round top lid but never did. Just ended up using an upturned tray and weight on buckets for years, although never liveaboard and keeping the fire in for weeks on end..

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1 hour ago, BilgePump said:

One of the problems I imagined you could encounter with those buckets was that the top would fill up with rainwater. 

And is that such a big problem really?
  What I’m seeing quite regular now is there seams to be a lot of Newbies buying boats and retro fitting fires themselves with absolutely no idea about placement and fire retardant insulation, never mind ventilation and air flow in the boat. In other words the correct complying regulations. They don’t get the fires inspected after fitment by a qualified independent and amaze you when they tell you their boat has a BSS even though they have fitted the fire half way through the boats current 4 year BSS and you know it wouldn’t pass the next.
  I’ve seen new boaters mounting small multi fuel fires on kitchen worktops, especially on GRP boats next to windows, a common factor with the boaters I see that are doing potentially dangerous things is that they are young, bought a rundown boat with little money and are only after a place to live and get their advice from similar boaters.  They have no concept of the potential CO risk and just want to be warm in the winter months.

  

Edited by PD1964
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53 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

And is that such a big problem really?
  What I’m seeing quite regular now is there seams to be a lot of Newbies buying boats and retro fitting fires themselves with absolutely no idea about placement and fire retardant insulation, never mind ventilation and air flow in the boat. In other words the correct complying regulations. They don’t get the fires inspected after fitment by a qualified independent and amaze you when they tell you their boat has a BSS even though they have fitted the fire half way through the boats current 4 year BSS and you know it wouldn’t pass the next.
  I’ve seen new boaters mounting small multi fuel fires on kitchen worktops, especially on GRP boats next to windows, a common factor with the boaters I see that are doing potentially dangerous things is that they are young, bought a rundown boat with little money and are only after a place to live and get their advice from similar boaters.  They have no concept of the potential CO2 risk and just want to be warm in the winter months.

  

So what is a "qualified independent" and there is very little a fire can fail a BSS inspection on if its fixed down and not damaged.

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28 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

So what is a "qualified independent" and there is very little a fire can fail a BSS inspection on if its fixed down and not damaged.

Someone that has the required qualifications and fits fires for a living and knows the complying regulations and safety requirements maybe? 
  And possibly too close to a bulkhead or roof lining so potentially could cause ignition, like a recent post where the roof caught alight, maybe this might not be a BSS fail?

Edited by PD1964
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26 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

And possibly too close to a bulkhead or roof lining so potentially could cause ignition, like a recent post where the roof caught alight.

 

Wasn't that one of Lady G's 'adventures' ?

 

BSS Examiners updates :

 

 

Dear Examiner,

This edition updates you with what’s happening on the subject of solid fuel stoves and alerts you to a dangerous LPG cylinder re-filling practice a very small minority of boat owners are engaging in and that may affect your safety. It also includes a safety warning about a range of European CO2 fire extinguishers and emphasises the continuing need to provide owners with the blue copy of the BSS Certificate.

 

Solid fuel stoves – the latest information In short, the BSS is not to introduce any new mandatory checks but there will be a new advice check. Reliance is being placed on safety improvements by way of encouraging owners to install new and replacement stoves to the new code of practice. Examiners have an important role to help persuade such owners and here is some added detail to help.

 

The BSI code of practice is published Most of you will be aware that new guidelines regarding the installation of solid fuel stoves in boats have been introduced by the publication in February 2010 of BS 8511 Code of practice for the installation of solid fuel heating and cooking appliances in small craft. Unusually, this code had a year to bed in and so the guidance was implemented in February of this year. Most of the major manufacturers of solid fuel stoves intended for boats now have stoves and components in-line with the code’s provisions. This may include the supply of twin-wall insulated chimneys and, very importantly, provision of boat-related installation instructions. The main safety impacts of the code are the introduction of clear guidelines as to how to insulate combustible materials from the heat of the stove and the importance of maintaining flue-gas temperature by selecting twin-wall insulated chimney sections.

Please take a look at the simple guidance on the impact of the code provided by the Solid Fuel Technology Institute (Soliftec); www.soliftec.com/Installation.htm .

 

The BSS position The following bullet points set out the current position of the BSS concerning stove safety:

 Boat fires and carbon monoxide poisonings attributed to solid fuel stoves continue to feature in BSS incident report data.

 The BSS welcomes the introduction of the BSI code and encourages boaters adding solid fuel stoves or replacing existing stoves to have them properly installed according the manufacturer’s instructions.

 The BSS currently considers it to be more effective in achieving fewer incidents, to promote installation to the new code rather than having a BSS mandatory requirement – time-linked, retrospective or otherwise.

 The BSS considers that stove installation to the code is essential for added safety, but equally important is the way the stove is used and maintained.

 The BSS is issuing a news release and briefings promoting new and replacement installations to the code and providing a link to essential safety messages concerning having an effective stove/flue maintenance regime and taking care and being attentive during stove use. 

 The BSS encourages boat owners to remain vigilant to the key hazards presented by solid fuel stoves, namely: - over-firing leading to a boat fire; - fires caused by stoves setting light to nearby materials; - carbon monoxide poisoning due to the escape of flue gases into the cabin.

 

What does all this mean for BSS Examiners?

Firstly, there will not be any new mandatory BSS checks as a result of the code’s publication. It has been established that any practical, repeatable mandatory installation check for examiners would be difficult to achieve and it is less likely to be effective in reducing incidents than promoting the code. The reasons for this conclusion are associated with the cause of recorded incidents being attributed in equal emphasis to

a) poor installation,

b) poor maintenance or

c) inappropriate use of the appliances.

 

It is considered that the latter two causes could not reasonably be assessed through the BSS examination process. In addition, concerning installation, checking the actual effectiveness of any insulation of combustible materials from stoves could be difficult without tools or removing panels.

There is however to be a new advice check for ‘non-intended’ gaps in the body of solid fuel appliances above the fire bed; in order to address the risk of CO leakage into the cabin space.

 

It is recognised that examiners continue to have an essential role to play if this encouragement is to be successful in reducing the number of solid fuel stove incidents. Here is how examiners can help:

1. Ensure continued vigilance in applying the checks at 8.4 and 8.5.

2. Encourage any boaters fitting new or replacing existing stoves to install to the code. Suggest they ask their supplier to ensure the appliance, chimney and installation instructions meet BS 8511 and insist their competent installer installs to the code. Also, point to the Soliftec web guidance.

3. Once published in the waterways magazines, promote the BSS press release and point boaters to information on the BSS website containing all the essential safety messages concerning effective stove/flue maintenance regime and safe stove use.

4. Let us know if you hear about an incident involving a solid fuel stove, or any other boat related incident for that matter.

 

What happens next? Watch out for the press release in the waterways press and internet.

Watch out for re-vamped information in the BSS website.

Anticipate an ECP change instruction in due course.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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3 hours ago, BilgePump said:

I guess part of the problem is that nobody really likes dealing with waterlogged ash, and we get a lot of rain in the UK. Just pour ash into an open bucket on the front deck and it's going to get wet.

But it is perhaps one way to guarantee your ash is out. 
I’ve a bucket now that needs emptying before I put any more hot ash into it.  
I empty me ash pan every 2nd or 3rd day in to an open bucket. So I know this bucket full has been standing awhile, and with it being water logged and with 2” of water on top I am sure when I bang it out into the skip it ain’t gonna set fire. 

 


 


 

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I've got a couple of the Tippy style ash Carrie's but they are kept outside. It not good that some sites (not Tippy) decribe them as fireside ash containers and use wording such as this- Store hot ash by your fire to cool down with this handy ash safe. Made from sturdy, corrosion resistant galvanised steel the ash safe can safely store hot ash and embers leaving them to cool by the fireside. When the ash has cooled it can then be carried outside and safely deposited.

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3 hours ago, PD1964 said:

They have no concept of the potential CO2 risk and just want to be warm in the winter months.

 

As Nick tersely implied, the CO2 risk is pretty trivial compared to the CO risk. To confuse the two is commonplace but the difference is important. 

 

Carbon monoxide (CO) will kill you directly by binding to the hemoglobin in your blood in place of the oxygen that normally binds, and get carried around your body to supply your various muscles, organs etc. So you die as your brain gets CO instead of sufficient oxyge,n AIUI. 

 

Carbon dioxide on the other hand (CO2) will kill you by a completely different method. One's 'breathing' reflex is triggered and controlled by the concentration level of CO2 in the lungs and when in an atmosphere with elevated CO2, this triggers uncontrollable hyperventilation, a really unpleasant death. 

 

High CO2 is vanishingly unlikely to occur as a result of a faulty flue or insufficient ventilation here in the world of boating, as to produce CO2 requires full combustion of the carbon-based fuel with plenty of oxygen, AIUI.

 

CO is far more likely to happen as it is caused by there being some, but insufficient oxygen for combustion to occur, i.e. not enough to support full combustion. Consequently an ash bucket with a close-fitting lid is not likely to be quite as terminally dangerous as some posters above have suggested, as the lid prevents ventilation and any oxygen at all inside the bucket get used up in partial combustion, and then combustion will peter out. The Tippy ash containers work in the same way. It is still prudent to put them outside however. 

 

 

Edited by MtB
Technical correction!
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23 hours ago, magnetman said:

A bloke on my countryside mooring had a major problem with carbon monoxide recently. He is new to the whole thing. I went on his boat and having inspected the fire noticed that the (moveable) baffle plate had moved (!) Forwards and completely blocked the flue. 

 

I can't remember the make of fire (arada?) but it is a small modern one. The baffle plate can move forwards and backwards and I reckon with engine running and boat being used it can easily end up in the wrong place due to vibration.  

 

So I pushed it back against the fire bricks and there is for now no problem. 

 

I did also suggest the fireangel CO monitor with the digital readout. Handy kit that is. 

 

And be extra careful when burning wood on t'fire. 

 

CO is bad news. Damhikt but I had overexposure years ago and it is beginning to show up as a health problem. You need to avoid this. 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that magnetman. After reading your post, and with the stove cold, I looked at the moveable plate in the top of the stove. It seemed to be able to move backwards and forwards and was balancing on the two sides. Not knowing which was the best place for it I ended up leaving it where it was somewhere in the middle, neither touching the front of the stove nor the firebricks at the back. I was going to push it all the way back but wasn't sure about where it should go with my brand of stove.

I'll check the manual.

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12 minutes ago, RickS said:

Thanks for that magnetman. After reading your post, and with the stove cold, I looked at the moveable plate in the top of the stove. It seemed to be able to move backwards and forwards and was balancing on the two sides. Not knowing which was the best place for it I ended up leaving it where it was somewhere in the middle, neither touching the front of the stove nor the firebricks at the back. I was going to push it all the way back but wasn't sure about where it should go with my brand of stove.

I'll check the manual.

Normally it would be at the back. 

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In my experience stoves work perfectly well without the baffle and I took it out of my Squirrel with no adverse effects.

 

My total guess is it's function is to assist the 'air washing' of the door glass to help keep it transparent and clear of soot/staining, but I don't know. 

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31 minutes ago, MtB said:

Carbon monoxide (CO) will kill you directly by binding to the hemoglobin in your blood in place of the oxygen that normally binds, and get carried around your body to supply your various muscles, organs etc. So you die as your brain gets CO instead of sufficient oxyge,n AIUI. 

 

Exactly that, and the worst bit is that CO is actually better at binding to haemoglobin than oxygen is.  About 200 times greater affinity!

 

That's why it's so dangerous - if there's any about it will start poisoning you even in small quantities.  Then you start to feel tired and perhaps go to sleep while still breathing more in.

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13 minutes ago, MtB said:

In my experience stoves work perfectly well without the baffle and I took it out of my Squirrel with no adverse effects.

 

My total guess is it's function is to assist the 'air washing' of the door glass to help keep it transparent and clear of soot/staining, but I don't know. 

I thought it was to try and keep the heat and combustion in the fire box area more and not to send it directly up the flue???

 Some fires don’t have Air Washing vents but have baffle/throat plates???

Edited by PD1964
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1 minute ago, PD1964 said:

I thought it was to try and keep the heat and combustion in the fire more and not to send it directly up the flue???

 

Well you actually need 100% of the combustion gas to go up the flue and none to go anywhere else so the presence or otherwise of a baffle will make no difference to this. 

 

With a properly air-tight stove the combustion gas flow through the burning fuel is controlled by the air vent at the bottom and if you fully close it, the stove will go out from oxygen starvation whether or not the baffle is in place or missing. 

 

This method of controlling combustion air flow into the stove and up through the flue obviously increases or decreases the heat of combustion by starving it of oxygen to a greater or lesser degree, which is why all stoves produce CO is spades when alight. If I put my flue gas analyser over the chimney of my stove outside, it goes right off the scale immediately and shuts down, so much CO is present in the flue gas. 

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23 hours ago, magnetman said:

A bloke on my countryside mooring had a major problem with carbon monoxide recently. He is new to the whole thing. I went on his boat and having inspected the fire noticed that the (moveable) baffle plate had moved (!) Forwards and completely blocked the flue. 

 

I can't remember the make of fire (arada?) but it is a small modern one. The baffle plate can move forwards and backwards and I reckon with engine running and boat being used it can easily end up in the wrong place due to vibration.  

 

So I pushed it back against the fire bricks and there is for now no problem. 

 

I did also suggest the fireangel CO monitor with the digital readout. Handy kit that is. 

 

And be extra careful when burning wood on t'fire. 

 

CO is bad news. Damhikt but I had overexposure years ago and it is beginning to show up as a health problem. You need to avoid this. 

 

 

 

 

I'm fully with you about the dangers of CO but I'm intrigued as to what the long term health effects are (you say the exposure was years ago). I also had more exposure than I would wish many years ago when taking part in a training 'practical'. The storyline was that someone (me) was supposed to be trying to gas themselves in their car inside a closed garage. Following a signal (a knock on the garage door) I was to start the car engine and await the response of the trainees. Unfortunately the trainees took an age to 'get' the storyline and despite holding my breath for as long as possible I ended up inhaling the car exhaust for longer that one would wish. I was as dizzy as hell for quite a while afterwards but don't seem to have suffered any long term effects, what long term effects did you have?

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