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Have I seriously poisoned myself?


RickS

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I have had the fire on pretty much all day for the last week and today I had a strong taste of coal in my throat, like I'd smoked 40 gaspers in 5 minutes and was a bit wheezy - and then the CO alarm went off!

I have opened doors and windows and can gradually move the alarm back to where it was without it going off, so assume that whatever set it off is dispersing.

Feel a bit tight across the chest but nothing serious.

What I really would like to know is what I have done to cause this and how not to do it again. Am I incorrectly burning the coal? Does the flue need sweeping do you think? I have one of those brushes on a long wire, which I assume I just shove down the flue from the outside (with door closed obviously) then sweep out the stove? 

 

Just an addition - I chucked a lump of wood onto the fire to burn off any bits of coal that might be giving off CO by not being fully burnt - mistake? Door is shut to force gases up the flue

Edited by RickS
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It does sound like CO poisoning and remember that CO poisoning is cumulative.

 

You need to find out why and how  it is happening  - get a smoke test kit and put it in your fire and see where the leaks come out.

 

DO NOT LIGHT THE FIRE AGAIN until you have resolved the issue

 

It could be a crack in the casing, a gap in the flue, door-rope missing etc etc

 

Smoke Pellets 3g (toolstation.com)

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Most likely the flue is partially blocked. My experience is that if burning smokeless coal a hard deposit forms inside the flue which is very difficult to remove and certainly not with a brush. The other thing to check is the top of the throat plate, stuff tends to fall down the flue and land on the plate, blocking the exit to the flue after a while.

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Something is causing combustion gases to get in to the boat. Don't ignore it. Find the problem and fix it. Clean the flue. Check for cracks in the stove, or glass. Check for holes in the flue. Check the door seals and glass seals.

What @Alan de Enfield said. Don't use it till you have found and fixed this.

 

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1 minute ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Since you are writing this, you haven't seriously poisoned yourself......yet. The CO alarm going off is the big cause for concern and sweeping the chimney would certainly be my first port of call, when was it last swept?

It has never been swept - that sounds worse than it is - it's a new stove and was only lit for the first time just before Christmas

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1 minute ago, RickS said:

It has never been swept - that sounds worse than it is - it's a new stove and was only lit for the first time just before Christmas

If it has been run with the intake vents stopped down a lot, just ticking over, they can clart up very quickly. The weather has cooled down now, but it has been very mild.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Sounds like a close call, glad to hear you are ok.

let's tick off the obvious stuff so that others with more experience can get on with giving you advice.

Chimney still in place.

All vents clear.

Ash bucket left outside.

Seal between flue pipe and stove (fire cement or rope) intact.

Seal between flue pipe and roof collar (fire cement or rope) intact.

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Thanks AdE, nicknorman and Jen about possible leaks. I did a smoke test before I lit it for the first time and it was fine, but I will do another one tomorrow when this fire has gone out. There is no visible smoke, apart from when the door is open and wood is starting to burn, but I know that may not mean anything as CO is invisible.

Smoke test and sweep flue, sounds like a plan. These hard deposits, how are you supposed to get rid of them if a brush won't do it?

3 minutes ago, Eeyore said:

Sounds like a close call, glad to hear you are ok.

let's tick off the obvious stuff so that others with more experience can get on with giving you advice.

Chimney still in place.

All vents clear.

Ash bucket left outside.

Seal between flue pipe and stove (fire cement or rope) intact.

Seal between flue pipe and roof collar (fire cement or rope) intact.

Chimney still in place - yes 🙂

Vents clear - I assume you mean mushroom vents etc

Ash bucket left outside - no, I have been keeping it in the boat - sounds like a mistake

Flue seals all look fine but will get a more definitive answer when I do a smoke test tomorrow

 

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2 minutes ago, Eeyore said:

Sounds like a close call, glad to hear you are ok.

let's tick off the obvious stuff so that others with more experience can get on with giving you advice.

Chimney still in place.

All vents clear.

Ash bucket left outside.

Seal between flue pipe and stove (fire cement or rope) intact.

Seal between flue pipe and roof collar (fire cement or rope) intact.

 

The other obvious (and least concerning) one would be simply opening the stove door to poke around at a fire which isn't burning that well (so the flue doesn't draw all the smoke.). Takes longer for that smoke to exit the cabin than enter it and really needs windows opened to get rid of it efficiently.

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10 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Since you are writing this, you haven't seriously poisoned yourself......yet. The CO alarm going off is the big cause for concern and sweeping the chimney would certainly be my first port of call, when was it last swept?

Meant to say thanks for replying 🙂

 

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It's not just coal that can give off co, any combustible material has the potential to cause carbon monoxide poisoning. A fairly recent fatality was from campers who brought their barbecue into the tent when it started to rain. 

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1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

 

The other obvious (and least concerning) one would be simply opening the stove door to poke around at a fire which isn't burning that well (so the flue doesn't draw all the smoke.). Takes longer for that smoke to exit the cabin than enter it and really needs windows opened to get rid of it efficiently.

That's a good point enigmatic, thankyou. My fire-lighting skills are getting better but I have done a fair bit of poking at uncooperative fires over the last couple of weeks.

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10 minutes ago, RickS said:

Thanks AdE, nicknorman and Jen about possible leaks. I did a smoke test before I lit it for the first time and it was fine, but I will do another one tomorrow when this fire has gone out. There is no visible smoke, apart from when the door is open and wood is starting to burn, but I know that may not mean anything as CO is invisible.

Smoke test and sweep flue, sounds like a plan. These hard deposits, how are you supposed to get rid of them if a brush won't do it?

Chimney still in place - yes 🙂

Vents clear - I assume you mean mushroom vents etc

Ash bucket left outside - no, I have been keeping it in the boat - sounds like a mistake

Flue seals all look fine but will get a more definitive answer when I do a smoke test tomorrow

 

When you say keeping it in the boat, whereabouts in the boat are you keeping it when the ash is still hot? (cold ash is obviously of little concern). The other vents you need to check are the lower vents as well in the doors.

 

Just going off on a slight tangent, how tall is your chimney and has it been windy around there at the time the CO alarm went off? My own experience with a CO alarm going off was I had to remove the chimney to go through a tunnel but didn't replace it immediately afterwards and 10 minutes later the CO alarm went off (the fire was almost out but still with glowing embers).

Edited by Wanderer Vagabond
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7 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

When you say keeping it in the boat, whereabouts in the boat are you keeping it when the ash is still hot? (cold ash is obviously of little concern). The other vents you need to check are the lower vents as well in the doors.

 

Just going off on a slight tangent, how tall is your chimney and has it been windy around there at the time the CO alarm went off? My own experience with a CO alarm going off was I had to remove the chimney to go through a tunnel but didn't replace it immediately afterwards and 10 minutes later the CO alarm went off (the fire was almost out but still with glowing embers).

Usually cold ash in a metal bucket (no lid) stored by the fire in front of the door - but every now and then it is warm/hot. The vents in the door are clear but there has been a curtain hanging loosely in front of them. I wouldn't say it was blocking them as there is always a draught but maybe I should consider drawing the curtain a bit more often.

Chimney is about 18 inches and it has been quite windy the last couple of days, so don't know if this may have an adverse effect.

Edited by RickS
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19 minutes ago, RickS said:

Ash bucket left outside - no, I have been keeping it in the boat - sounds like a mistake

 

I think that could be your culprit. But do carefully check the stove and chimney. 

Also carbon monoxide has a half life in your blood stream, of 320 minutes, so do breathe fresh air for a long time!!

Edited by booke23
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14 minutes ago, RickS said:

Ash bucket left outside - no, I have been keeping it in the boat - sounds like a mistake

Yep, big mistake. 
Always put outside. 
Don’t take any chances with the discarded ash whether you think it cold or no. 
Put it proper outside, not out under the Cratch cover but outside 

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19 minutes ago, RickS said:

That's a good point enigmatic, thankyou. My fire-lighting skills are getting better but I have done a fair bit of poking at uncooperative fires over the last couple of weeks.

After two years I have refined my stove skills. 

I keep a regular supply of dry kindling and dry logs to revive fire if the coals might die out. 

This means  a quick rake of coal embers to drop ash, then throw on wood, keep door closed if it will revive, if nearly black you need to crack door open to create draught til it enflames. 

I might add one firelighter plus kindling, but keeping stove warm to hot is one key, also I will have five nice warm dry ovals ready to start up. 

I've never swept, two years, BAD, stove on Oct to March 24/7. 

If leaving boat I make sure fire is stable, and I have a wire round door to make sure it can't open if boat hits something or vice versa. 

To remove ash, I put it in the bucket and put bucket out window to cool (stove  multifuel, amidships) 

Edited by LadyG
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A glowing ember in an ash bucket, surrounded by ash, means restricted access to Oxygen, means CO being made. Had the same thing not long after I installed the stove. Kept the ash bucket indoors and set off the CO alarm. Always goes outside at least overnight to ensure it is cool. Away from any vents that could draw gas back in to the boat.

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Bunging wet or damp smokeless coal on caused the solid cement like build up in the fluepipe. The moisture mixes with the binder that causes it. If it's bone dry it won't happen.

Just now, bizzard said:

Bunging wet or damp smokeless coal on caused the solid cement like build up in the fluepipe. The moisture mixes with the binder that causes it.

 

Edited by bizzard
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2 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Yep, big mistake. 
Always put outside. 
Don’t take any chances with the discarded ash whether you think it cold or no. 
Put it proper outside, not out under the Cratch cover but outside 

I think this might be the source - just went to put the ash bucket outside - it had what i thought was warm ash in it, certainly not glowing - it was kept just under the CO monitor. Moving it outside and it was considerably hotter than when it went in, and this was hours ago! Maybe this would explain the smoky taste in my throat.

I appreciate that this does sound like a ridiculously obvious mistake but it never occurred to me that it would be a problem.

I have just taken the ash bucket outside and far from being cold ash with a small amount of hot ash on top, just poking the top and it proved to be a very hot glowing bucket of ash - clearly the hot ash has ignited what was still combustible in the cold ash. i had no idea this was going on under my nose. Took it away from the boat and added a small amount of water and a big smelly cloud came off it, which tasted of what I have been tasting over the last hour or so.

That could have been a disaster if i hadn't been prompted to consider it - lesson learned I think

14 minutes ago, LadyG said:

After two years I have refined my stove skills. 

I keep a regular supply of dry kindling and dry logs to revive fire if the coals might die out. 

This means  a quick rake of coal embers to drop ash, then throw on wood, keep door closed if it will revive, if nearly black you need to crack door open to create draught til it enflames. 

I might add one firelighter plus kindling, but keeping stove warm to hot is one key, also I will have five nice warm dry ovals ready to start up. 

I've never swept, two years, BAD, stove on Oct to March 24/7. 

If leaving boat I make sure fire is stable, and I have a wire round door to make sure it can't open if boat hits something or vice versa. 

To remove ash, I put it in the bucket and put bucket out window to cool (stove  multifuel, amidships) 

Thanks LadyG. Sounds similar to what I am doing, usually, so nice to know I'm getting there

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Just now, RickS said:

I think this might be the source - just went to put the ash bucket outside - it had what i thought was warm ash in it, certainly not glowing - it was kept just under the CO monitor. Moving it outside and it was considerably hotter than when it went in, and this was hours ago! Maybe this would explain the smoky taste in my throat.

I appreciate that this does sound like a ridiculously obvious mistake but it never occurred to me that it would be a problem.

I have just taken the ash bucket outside and far from being cold ash with a small amount of hot ash on top, just poking the top and it proved to be a very hot glowing bucket of ash - clearly the hot ash has ignited what was still combustible in the cold ash. i had no idea this was going on under my nose. Took it away from the boat and added a small amount of water and a big smelly cloud came off it, which tasted of what I have been tasting over the last hour or so.

That could have been a disaster if i hadn't been prompted to consider it - lesson learned I think

Although it might look cold and safe, underneath the surface of the ash in a bucket can be red hot ash still hot afer hours often a day or so giving off fumes before it all goes cold.

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6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A glowing ember in an ash bucket, surrounded by ash, means restricted access to Oxygen, means CO being made. Had the same thing not long after I installed the stove. Kept the ash bucket indoors and set off the CO alarm. Always goes outside at least overnight to ensure it is cool. Away from any vents that could draw gas back in to the boat.

Thanks Jen. This is sounding exactly what I seem to have done. The hot ash seems to have carried on burning in the cold ash and, from what you say, producing CO - so not surprising that the alarm has gone off - I feel a complete fool!

1 minute ago, bizzard said:

Although it might look cold and safe, underneath the surface of the ash in a bucket can be red hot ash still hot afer hours often a day or so giving off fumes before it all goes cold.

Thanks bizzard. You are describing exactly what I have just found in the ash bucket - getting hotter and hotter. Sounds like I have dodged one and has proved how damn useful this forum is - I would not have thought to check it otherwise

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4 minutes ago, RickS said:

I think this might be the source - just went to put the ash bucket outside - it had what i thought was warm ash in it, certainly not glowing - it was kept just under the CO monitor. Moving it outside and it was considerably hotter than when it went in, and this was hours ago! Maybe this would explain the smoky taste in my throat.

I appreciate that this does sound like a ridiculously obvious mistake but it never occurred to me that it would be a problem.

I have just taken the ash bucket outside and far from being cold ash with a small amount of hot ash on top, just poking the top and it proved to be a very hot glowing bucket of ash - clearly the hot ash has ignited what was still combustible in the cold ash. i had no idea this was going on under my nose. Took it away from the boat and added a small amount of water and a big smelly cloud came off it, which tasted of what I have been tasting over the last hour or so.

That could have been a disaster if i hadn't been prompted to consider it - lesson learned I think

In fairness I think there are a lot of people who do not fully understand the CO risks from simple glowing embers. I don't normally quote the DM but this story does illustrate the problem (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2140326/Shropshire-campsite-death-Girl-14-killed-tent-barbecue-fumes.html#:~:text=The disposable barbecue they used to cook the,no smell or taste but can kill quickly.). They seem to have assumed in a well ventilated tent there would have been no problem, but there is. A boat with even less ventilation will accentuate the problem.

 

You have however had the benefit of learning from experience...and surviving;)

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1 minute ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

In fairness I think there are a lot of people who do not fully understand the CO risks from simple glowing embers. I don't normally quote the DM but this story does illustrate the problem (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2140326/Shropshire-campsite-death-Girl-14-killed-tent-barbecue-fumes.html#:~:text=The disposable barbecue they used to cook the,no smell or taste but can kill quickly.). They seem to have assumed in a well ventilated tent there would have been no problem, but there is. A boat with even less ventilation will accentuate the problem.

 

You have however had the benefit of learning from experience...and surviving;)

Thanks Vagabond. To be honest, I feel a bit of a dick. I don't consider myself to be an idiot, and I thought I understood sources and risk of CO poisoning but didn't even consider the ash bucket. The taste in my mouth should have been a bit of clue - he says with perfect hindsight!

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