Who is responsible for offside bank repairs ?

[jonathanA]

Really as the title !

If I or a farmer owns a piece of land with canal frontage on the non towpath side. Who is responsible  for the canal wall/bank the landowner or CRT? 

In the case I'm thinking of there is no CRT owned ransom or riparian strip of land on the offside at least not according to the Land registry title. 

 

So just wondering who has what responsibilities....

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Really as the title !

If I or a farmer owns a piece of land with canal frontage on the non towpath side. Who is responsible  for the canal wall/bank the landowner or CRT? 

In the case I'm thinking of there is no CRT owned ransom or riparian strip of land on the offside at least not according to the Land registry title. 

 

So just wondering who has what responsibilities....

 

Bad news mate - you are.  You also can't just do the work yourself but need approved contractors to do it on your behalf or you may be held liable for any potential breach.

 

On the plus side, your plot is all uphill so it's not likely to breach, it will just keep collapsing.

[tree monkey]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Bad news mate - you are.  You also can't just do the work yourself but need approved contractors to do it on your behalf or you may be held liable for any potential breach.

 

On the plus side, your plot is all uphill so it's not likely to breach, it will just keep collapsing.

Even if its a structural part of the canal?

Edited January 4, 2022 by tree monkey

[David Mack]

I'm sure I read of a case somewhere where BWB and CRT had allowed a significant amount of the offside bank to wash into the canal, such that there was room to moor a boat in the area beyond the original boundary. The landowner argued successfully that as the boat was moored wholly over his land CRT did not have the right to charge an end-of-field mooring charge. Although presumably they would have a right to close off the access from his mooring to the main canal.

[Higgs]

17 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I'm sure I read of a case somewhere where BWB and CRT had allowed a significant amount of the offside bank to wash into the canal, such that there was room to moor a boat in the area beyond the original boundary. The landowner argued successfully that as the boat was moored wholly over his land CRT did not have the right to charge an end-of-field mooring charge. Although presumably they would have a right to close off the access from his mooring to the main canal.

 

The boat would have been as good as on the land, inside the boundary of the landowner's property. Is it the landowner's fault that the land has been eroded, to such degree that enabled a boat to float over it?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Higgs

[jonathanA]

I can see if the landowner damages or causes damage to the canal bank CRT would hold them responsible. But if the canal bank or wall collapses or fails then is it a CRT responsibility? 

 

@TheBiscuits so why do CRT spend millions repairing breaches then if its the landowners responsibility? I guess where there is a structural failure of a culvert then that could be different. I've also seen them looking for and repairing leaks where the landowner has complained. 

 

Think it's an interesting one !

[Higgs]

This has cropped up on the forum in the past. I think the conclusion was that CRT will only accept responsibility for the navigation, and that didn't extend to responsibility for the maintenance of the offside. I imagine that there are exceptions. 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Higgs

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, jonathanA said:

so why do CRT spend millions repairing breaches then if its the landowners responsibility?

 

To get it fixed correctly.  Just because they organise the work doesn't mean the final bill is paid by CRT!

 

For clarity, if there is an offside ransom strip or it's towpath side it's CRT's problem.  If there isn't an offside ransom strip it's the landowner's problem.

[cuthound]

The bank at the end of one of my near neighbours garden has collapsed into the canal.

 

They tried unsuccessfully to get CRT to repair it 

 

It became a Mexican stand off and as it only really inconvenienced my near neighbours, they eventually paid to have it repaired.

 

The end of my garden is pulled with concrete piles, connected by what appears to be railway line, clearly put in place by the canal owner. If that collapsed, then I would move my boat, losing CRT their annual mooring income, which hopefully would encourage them to promptly repair it.

[jonathanA]

OK so probably no definitive answer more driven by circumstance.... if it suits CRT e.g major breach or potential major problem they do it. If it doesn't they'll ignore it 

 

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

To get it fixed correctly.  Just because they organise the work doesn't mean the final bill is paid by CRT!

Hmm never seen any evidence to suggest this is the case with any of the recent major breaches.... perhaps  bridge strike damage where they can pursue the vehicle's insurers .... and that sort of thing

[Jerra]

There was a clip on TV today (BBC Countryfile Winter diaries I think) where the presenter was examining the bank on his land and asking (I think CRT man) what was the best way to fix it.  The CRT (?) man said he might even be able to get volunteers to help.  This was on the K& A I think.  It was on but I was doing other things.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Jerra

[dmr]

I have owned two houses on the upper Itchen estuary. When I moved to the second the solicitor got really bogged down over who had to maintain the sea wall and advised me not to buy.  From my perspective putting yer wellies on and mending a stone wall on a summers day is a plus rather than a minus. I realise that CRT could make all sorts of trouble with approved contractors etc, but in general if you want water frontage then maintenance should be part of the fun.

I had an estate agent value the second house, sadly the tide was out when he visited "there is a huge expanse of mud at the bottom of the garden but I don't think this will detract too much from the value" 🤣

[ditchcrawler]

16 hours ago, dmr said:

I have owned two houses on the upper Itchen estuary. When I moved to the second the solicitor got really bogged down over who had to maintain the sea wall and advised me not to buy.  From my perspective putting yer wellies on and mending a stone wall on a summers day is a plus rather than a minus. I realise that CRT could make all sorts of trouble with approved contractors etc, but in general if you want water frontage then maintenance should be part of the fun.

I had an estate agent value the second house, sadly the tide was out when he visited "there is a huge expanse of mud at the bottom of the garden but I don't think this will detract too much from the value" 🤣

You cant just build any old wall Council orders Hemsby homeowner to stop sea defence work | Great Yarmouth Mercury

[dmr]

19 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

You cant just build any old wall Council orders Hemsby homeowner to stop sea defence work | Great Yarmouth Mercury

 

I half remember that in Southampton it was the harbourmaster who controlled most things, much easier to deal with than a council.

[jonathanA]

17 hours ago, dmr said:

I have owned two houses on the upper Itchen estuary. When I moved to the second the solicitor got really bogged down over who had to maintain the sea wall and advised me not to buy.  From my perspective putting yer wellies on and mending a stone wall on a summers day is a plus rather than a minus. I realise that CRT could make all sorts of trouble with approved contractors etc, but in general if you want water frontage then maintenance should be part of the fun.

I had an estate agent value the second house, sadly the tide was out when he visited "there is a huge expanse of mud at the bottom of the garden but I don't think this will detract too much from the value" 🤣

Thanks DMR yes I agree I'm lucky to own a bit of land where I can moor my boat and much like pottering about on the boat, pottering about on the mooring is part of the fun. 

I'm just trying to work out what I can do or not do without Involving CRT and how much sway if any they have. 

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, jonathanA said:

Thanks DMR yes I agree I'm lucky to own a bit of land where I can moor my boat and much like pottering about on the boat, pottering about on the mooring is part of the fun. 

I'm just trying to work out what I can do or not do without Involving CRT and how much sway if any they have. 

Would it not be quicker and easier to just ask them?

[jonathanA]

14 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Would it not be quicker and easier to just ask them?

Have you tried asking CRT anything at all....  ? 

The nicest thing I can say is its an iterative process ... I ask a question, fill a form in or email a document they ask questions then put me on to another department with a different form or process to follow and usually accompanied by a 'fee' to cover their costs.... dont get me wrong they are helpful and always pleasant to deal with but not easy to get a straight answer from them.... and not quick either. 

[dmr]

24 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Thanks DMR yes I agree I'm lucky to own a bit of land where I can moor my boat and much like pottering about on the boat, pottering about on the mooring is part of the fun. 

I'm just trying to work out what I can do or not do without Involving CRT and how much sway if any they have. 

 

Doing it officially with CRT could well be a big process, they have to protect themselves from daft people destroying the bank or digging into the lining etc etc. If you can convince them that you are competent then they will let you do it yourself but they may well want insurance cover and it might take ages to get permission, plus you will likely need to produce risk assessments and method statements etc etc..

 

If it really is just a simple low risk repair rather than a rebuild, and if its not in a very visible location, then its tempting just to buy a pair of waders and get on with it.

I have first hand experience of getting CRT permission to do work so know whats involved and so strongly suspect that the majority of people who I see digging at the bottom of their garden are doing it unofficially. Initially try speaking informally to the local maintenance team if you can.

 

edited....crossed posts but we are saying similar things 😀

Edited January 5, 2022 by dmr

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Have you tried asking CRT anything at all....  ? 

The nicest thing I can say is its an iterative process ... I ask a question, fill a form in or email a document they ask questions then put me on to another department with a different form or process to follow and usually accompanied by a 'fee' to cover their costs.... dont get me wrong they are helpful and always pleasant to deal with but not easy to get a straight answer from them.... and not quick either. 

Maybe not but at least you would know what you could do without the risk of backlash from CRT at some point in the future.

[jonathanA]

Thanks Jerra yes I'm trying to make sure I understand the respective responsibilities and just want to be  as informed as possible hence asking here as well as speaking to CRT.  

[tree monkey]

17 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Doing it officially with CRT could well be a big process, they have to protect themselves from daft people destroying the bank or digging into the lining etc etc. If you can convince them that you are competent then they will let you do it yourself but they may well want insurance cover and it might take ages to get permission, plus you will likely need to produce risk assessments and method statements etc etc..

 

If it really is just a simple low risk repair rather than a rebuild, and if its not in a very visible location, then its tempting just to buy a pair of waders and get on with it.

I have first hand experience of getting CRT permission to do work so know whats involved and so strongly suspect that the majority of people who I see digging at the bottom of their garden are doing it unofficially. Initially try speaking informally to the local maintenance team if you can.

 

edited....crossed posts but we are saying similar things 😀

I tend to agree about working with CRT, a fair few times I had to organise works across CRT property and it was a painful and expensive process, until you got to speak and deal with the bloke on the ground