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I recently put my narrowboat which was under a year old for sale with with the brokerage of the well known marina where she was moored.   A week later they had an offer subject to survey at the asking price.   The buyer has now pulled out and the broker said they will not sell the boat owing to the faults reported by their usual surveyor.

The problems are with the height of the hull openings and the report states the following:

RECOMMENDATIONS 1.4 PG11
    

Advisory/Repairs * It is very easy to overload a small vessel such as this. With full water and fuel tanks and many persons and gear onboard, freeboard heights will be greatly reduced and this must be considered at all times and outlets/drains monitored regularly. If freeboard heights become much reduced then they will need revising.  
    
The forward deck drained via openings in the hull sides, these were of adequate size and found satisfactory. The forward deck drains were a satisfactory height above the waterline (especially when considering the front door cill) however it is very easy to overload a small vessel such as this. With full water and fuel tanks and many persons and gear onboard, freeboard heights will be greatly reduced and this must be considered at all times and outlets/drains monitored regularly. If freeboard heights become much reduced then they will need revising.  
    
Essential Repairs * Ensure freeboard height of the weed hatch is at least 15cm.
    
Essential Repairs * The bilge pump outlet must be raised to above the upper full length ‘D’ bar and the current opening plated over, using 6mm plate.
    
Four skin fittings, located starboard side, were far too close to the waterline. The bilge pump outlet must be raised to above the upper full length ‘D’ bar and the current opening plated over, using 6mm plate.
    
Essential Repairs * The galley and heads sink outlet skin fittings must be fitted with isolators as these cannot be raised as they rely on gravity drainage. These isolators must be easily accessible and clearly marked and turned off on certain waters/weather conditions.
    
The galley and heads sink outlet skin fittings must be fitted with isolators as these cannot be raised as they rely on gravity drainage. These isolators must be easily accessible and clearly marked and turned off on certain waters/weather conditions.
    
Essential Repairs * The shower pump outlet must be raised to at least 25cm above the waterline and the current opening plated over, using 6mm plate.

I have studied the RCD  DIRECTIVE  2013/53/EU   and also Small craft - Seacocks and through-hull fittings - Part 1: Metallic (ISO 9093-1:1994)Publication date:Feb 14, 2019 and can find no heights specified for hull outlets, only a requirement for seacocks for underwater fittings.   There is this in the BSS https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/requirements-examinations-certification/non-private-boat-standards/part-10-non-private-boats-safety-features/hull-openings/ but only as a suggestion of 250mm height for private boats.

The lowest of these outlets is the bilge pump 0nly 9cm above the waterline with the secured hose rising well above it and the shower outlet is 13mm.

The builder says the boat conforms with the RCD and there is nothing wrong with it as it is the same as all the 200+ boats they have built, however at my request they reballasted the boat for me as it was too low in the water at the stern.     I asked the marina to get the surveyor to recheck the boat as he was due to inspect another one, I had to pay for that in advance!   The surveyor refused to alter the survey and the marina still refused to sell the boat.  

 

 

 

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For sink outlets, it's normal to consider the flooding height as the height of the sink rim, not the hole in the side. A surveyor being very cautious my insist that hoses are double clamped before allowing this. I'd suggest finding another broker and another surveyor.

 

Bilge pump outlets can suffer from syphoning, so the easiest solution may be to do as the surveyor suggests,

 

MP.

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It is the insurance companies to blame for the height of outlets focus in surveyors reports. An annual meeting between surveyors and the insurers usually brings about one big change in focus annually. ...last year it was side anodes in addition to front and back- seemingly regardless of corrosion or suitability.

The hull fittings rage came about 3 years ago, since then, many boats both new and old have had to be re-piped, a syphon loop above skin fitting installed, or the skin fitting permanently raised. Most Hudson's, Tyler Wilson's and other sleek, low gunneled hull builders fall foul of this idiocy.

It doesnt matter that your boat has floated perfectly well for 30 years, insurers will not cover the risk once a surveyor has highlighted a fitting too close to the water line.

Your bilge pump should be ok if its exit pipe is raised up before the fitting, your shower pump probably needs a raised loop between pump and skin fitting.

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3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

It is the insurance companies to blame for the height of outlets focus in surveyors reports. An annual meeting between surveyors and the insurers usually brings about one big change in focus annually. ...last year it was side anodes in addition to front and back- seemingly regardless of corrosion or suitability.

The hull fittings rage came about 3 years ago, since then, many boats both new and old have had to be re-piped, a syphon loop above skin fitting installed, or the skin fitting permanently raised. Most Hudson's, Tyler Wilson's and other sleek, low gunneled hull builders fall foul of this idiocy.

 

What happens to older boats with air-cooled engines and air inlets low down? Those seem to be responsible for most downflooding sinkings.

 

MP.

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Oh and another thing. What qualifications does the surveyor have that makes him/her a "surveyor"? 

 

This does look to me like a 'copy-n-paste' survey where they start off with the same thing for every survey, and edit it to suit each boat, but forgot to delete some bits. What length is your "small vessel such as this"?

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7 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

 

What happens to older boats with air-cooled engines and air inlets low down? Those seem to be responsible for most downflooding sinkings.

 

MP.

Exhaust systems have had to be redesigned in a couple of jobs we have had, and the air intakes have a plate welded over the bottom half in one case. It was the air intakes of the overloaded Springer on the lower Thames sinking that principally caused all these changes....I have no doubt the Harefield Marina sinkings will re-inforce this instruction.

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52 minutes ago, JamesFrance said:

I have studied the RCD  DIRECTIVE  2013/53/EU   and also Small craft - Seacocks and through-hull fittings - Part 1: Metallic (ISO 9093-1:1994)Publication date:Feb 14, 2019 and can find no heights specified for hull outlets, only a requirement for seacocks for underwater fittings.

 

 

You need to look at the down-flooding requirements - for a Cat D vessel (for such as a NB) the minimum height of the thru-hull fittings is 0.4mts irrespective of boat length.

 

 

Downflooding height requirements 2.png

Downflooding height requirements.png

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, JamesFrance said:

The galley and heads sink outlet skin fittings must be fitted with isolators as these cannot be raised as they rely on gravity drainage. These isolators must be easily accessible and clearly marked and turned off on certain waters/weather conditions.

 

For such as these, the height should be taken to the plug-hole in the basin / sink assuming that the pipe is securely fitted and double clamped (ideally with an in-line sea-cock).

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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We had one (reduntant) hull opening that just went below the waterline with full diesel tank/empty water tank. I capped it off on the inside (BSP cap) and we did not sink. After several years  I paid a boatyard to weld it over as it was upsetting lots of people.

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Such these, the height should be taken to the plug-hole in the basin / sink assuming that the pipe is securely fitted and double clamped (ideally with an in-line sea-cock).

Why plug hole? Surely the downflooding height should be measured to the rim of the sink/basin/shower tray/bath?

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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You need to look at the down-flooding requirements - for a Cat D vessel (for uch as a NB) the minimum height of the thru-hull fittings is 0.4mts irrespective of boat length.

 

 

 

 

So quite a lot more than the BSS suggestion of 250mm , and 150mm for a weed hatch .

To be clear -  the height above the waterline with the boat normally loaded may be measured to the point where flooding would commence such as the highest point of the  hose inside the boat , given the hose rises up inside the boat , and not to the height of the skin fitting.

I agree with the logic that if connected to a sink the rim of the sink would apply .

 

Back to the subject boat 

 

With the boat normally loaded

Do the hoses inside the boat rise to give freeboard of more than 250mm or not?

Does the weed hatch rise to 150mm freeboard or not?

 

Edited by MartynG
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1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Is the problem the surveyor or is it the

So quite a lot more than the BSS suggestion of 250mm , and 150mm for a weed hatch .

To be clear -  the height above the waterline with the boat normally loaded may be measured to the point where flooding would commence such as the highest point of the  hose inside the boat , given the hose rises up inside the boat , and not to the height of the skin fitting.

I agree with the logic that if connected to a sink the rim of the sink would apply .

 

See 6.2.2.1 (C) in the screen shot I posted.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'd have thought so as well, but a surveyor told me it was the 'plug-hole'.

 

Mebbe the idea is you can put the plug in? (And perhaps hold it down with a pile of bricks.)

 

Mind you, if it gets to the stage where the boat is so low in the water it is back-flowing up the plug hole, I'd suggest the boat has bigger problems than whether the plug hole or the sink rim was the important factor.

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Does the OP know the name of the surveyor? Is he professionally qualified or a member of a recognised organisation?

I would be tempted to write do him suggesting he has misapplied the relevant criteria, and that if he is not prepared to provide chapter and verse evidence in support of each of the disputed observations, I would be making a formal complaint to his professional body.

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6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Does the OP know the name of the surveyor? Is he professionally qualified or a member of a recognised organisation?

I would be tempted to write do him suggesting he has misapplied the relevant criteria, and that if he is not prepared to provide chapter and verse evidence in support of each of the disputed observations, I would be making a formal complaint to his professional body.

How have you ruled out the possibility that the surveyor is correct and the boat design is faulty ?

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How small is this small vessel? 30` or thereabouts? If so then there may, just may, be some risk of flooding. The front well deck openings might have to shed a hell of a lot of water very quickly if you fall foul of leaky top gates so mentioning that is understandable. Somewhere I have a pic of an absolute torrent of water coming out of a 6" dia pipe set into a canal wall, it was bone dry when we tied up by it but a whacking great thunderstorm filled the adjacent (huge) car park and the drain was, yup. that dry old pipe. That would have sunk many boats. As for the rest of the fittings it is no big deal to fit valves to them and the bilge pump just needs a syphon breaker, or you can indeed just raise the outlet. To be honest the boatbuilder should have done better but it sounds more like an irritating list of annoying but fixable things and not a disaster, the broker though needs to grow a pair as some might say. (and the surveyor might just be covering his bum, I don't suppose he recommended a lightning conductor as well did he?)

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7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

How have you ruled out the possibility that the surveyor is correct and the boat design is faulty ?

That's why I suggested he be asked to produce evidence that he has correctly applied the criteria.  At the moment the OP has a statement from the boatbuilder that the boat complies with the RCD, so it is up to the surveyor to provide evidence, not merely assertion, that it does not.

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30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'd have thought so as well, but a surveyor told me it was the 'plug-hole'.

That surveyor was incorrect.

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That's why I suggested he be asked to produce evidence that he has correctly applied the criteria.  At the moment the OP has a statement from the boatbuilder that the boat complies with the RCD, so it is up to the surveyor to provide evidence, not merely assertion, that it does not.

The RCD and the Insurers are 2 completely different sets of criteria to satisfy, as I've explained in my first post.

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I do not know the name of the surveyor, the marina just emailed his list of faults.   All the hoses are double clipped and the pipes all rise higher than the outlets.   The weedhatch was low but after reballasting it is now ok.

I had decided to sell as my eyesight is failing and we can not cruise any more, however we have relocated to a bankside mooring and will keep her to still enjoy the canal with cruising on a lock free stretch and many passing boats where my wife can steer.   Having been involved with canals since the 60s we would have missed it all.

The boat is only 25ft long.

Edited by JamesFrance
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1 hour ago, JamesFrance said:

I do not know the name of the surveyor, the marina just emailed his list of faults.   All the hoses are double clipped and the pipes all rise higher than the outlets.   The weedhatch was low but after reballasting it is now ok.

I had decided to sell as my eyesight is failing and we can not cruise any more, however we have relocated to a bankside mooring and will keep her to still enjoy the canal with cruising on a lock free stretch and many passing boats where my wife can steer.   Having been involved with canals since the 60s we would have missed it all.

The boat is only 25ft long.

You could put her up for sale with another broker. A buyer paid for advice from a particular surveyor and decided not to buy, and the broker has decided they cant help you further. Thats unlucky, particularly when you describe the boat as you do.

 

If a new broker finds a buyer in a week or so, then you get to see what another surveyor says, or they may not have a survey.

 

Having said that, if you love boating, and can manage between you, all is good, and it turned out for the best 👌 

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22 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

You could put her up for sale with another broker. A buyer paid for advice from a particular surveyor and decided not to buy, and the broker has decided they cant help you further. Thats unlucky, particularly when you describe the boat as you do.

 

If a new broker finds a buyer in a week or so, then you get to see what another surveyor says, or they may not have a survey.

 

Having said that, if you love boating, and can manage between you, all is good, and it turned out for the best 👌 

Yes Richard, we will be keeping her and selling up in France, I also sold my Beneteau in Spain last year.    There is a huge demand for these small boats so it won't be hard to sell, I was only using brokerage because I was in their marina.

  I remember reading your posts on YBW when I think you had a boat in Malta where we did our first liveaboard in 1969 after buying her there before bringing her back to England.

Malta Gregale.jpg

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4 hours ago, JamesFrance said:

Advisory/Repairs * It is very easy to overload a small vessel such as this. With full water and fuel tanks and many persons and gear onboard, freeboard heights will be greatly reduced and this must be considered at all times and outlets/drains monitored regularly. If freeboard heights become much reduced then they will need revising.

Does the builder's plate not have a figure for maximum number of persons on board? How  many is "many persons and gear"?

 

5 hours ago, JamesFrance said:

Four skin fittings, located starboard side, were far too close to the waterline. The bilge pump outlet must be raised to above the upper full length ‘D’ bar and the current opening plated over, using 6mm plate.

How does the height of these fittings compare to the height of the deck drains, which are " a satisfactory height above the waterline", especiallu considering that it isn't the height of the opening itself that's important, but the resulting downflooding height?

 

4 hours ago, JamesFrance said:

Essential Repairs * The bilge pump outlet must be raised to above the upper full length ‘D’ bar and the current opening plated over, using 6mm plate.

An alternative is to run the drain hose in a loop above the hull opening, with the hose length from the high point being longer than from the high point to the bilge pump. (Might be simpler to raise the hull opening, though: how high is it at the moment?)

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