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C&RT get the go-ahead to cut back trees.


Alan de Enfield

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18 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I am aware of that, being a former railway engineer.  However, the weedkiller must have soaked through the ballast on viaducts as the problem of buddliea sprouting from below rail level masonry was not a problem (when I was important)! 😄

I am curious about that, I would be very surprised if enough volume was sprayed to soak through, if there was no wonder the stuff was banned ;)

I wonder why there's an apparent increase in veg on masonry?

Did they have teams spot treating or teams roping down to remove manually?

Sorry to badger this stuff interests me

6 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

The weedkiller works by application to the leaves which it wouldn't achieve even if it did percolate through ballast, and then there's the issue of all the overbridges and retaining walls. It wasn't a problem because it was manually cleared by directly employed structures maintenance gangs, something that largely ceased to exist in the 1990s as such activities weren't deemed critical in performance led contracts.

Ahhhhh there you go manual removal.

There would definitely be an effect if enough was applied to wash through the rooting area but the volume would be massive

Edited by tree monkey
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5 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

I am curious about that, I would be very surprised if enough volume was sprayed to soak through, if there was no wonder the stuff was banned ;)

I wonder why there's an apparent increase in veg on masonry?

Did they have teams spot treating or teams roping down to remove manually?

Sorry to badger this stuff interests me

 

Adding to my earlier post I think the principle was prevention. If you have well maintained mortar joints you don't get weed growth. Viaducts and large retaining walls would be beyond the capability of simple manual clearance. It comes back to undertaking routine minor repairs which are required long before there is any threat to the performance of the railway sat on or under the structure in question.

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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6 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

The weedkiller works by application to the leaves which it wouldn't achieve even if it did percolate through ballast, and then there's the issue of all the overbridges and retaining walls. It wasn't a problem because it was manually cleared by directly employed structures maintenance gangs, something that largely ceased to exist in the 1990s as such activities weren't deemed critical in performance led contracts.

I believe the now banned sodium chlorate was rather more effective than that, killing the ground from new growth until the next application.

 

Agreed that above ground structures would need, and got, different treatment.

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5 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I believe the now banned sodium chlorate was rather more effective than that, killing the ground from new growth until the next application.

 

Agreed that above ground structures would need, and got, different treatment.

 

That's probably so and as @tree monkey has informed us it takes different amounts to treat different parts of the plant. I know that the current stuff (unless things have changed very recently) requires to act on something that's sprouted some greenery and it loses effectiveness if applied during rainfall.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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6 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

That's probably so and as @tree monkey has informed us it takes different amounts to treat different parts of the plant. I know that the current stuff (unless things have changed very recently) requires to act on something that's sprouted some greenery and it loses effectiveness if applied during rainfall.

Agreed.  I think another big difference was that, with regular passes of the weedkilling train using sodium chlorate, buddleia and other bushes were being caught as twigs.  A different proposition to the full grown bushes now seen sprouting.

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18 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Agreed.  I think another big difference was that, with regular passes of the weedkilling train using sodium chlorate, buddleia and other bushes were being caught as twigs.  A different proposition to the full grown bushes now seen sprouting.

 

One thing that's for sure is that there has been an explosion in the amount of vegetation growth in the past generation or so. Not just on railways - and more recent than it simply being the end of lineside fires started by steam locomotives - but also motorways and canals and the countryside in general. Find a picture from the 1980s and you'll find places once visible are now obscured by dense vegetation.

 

I think it's more than can be explained by climate change which over that timespan is very small, so it's likely the growing conditions of the air and particularly the soil have changed. The banning of certain chemicals - both intended for weedkilling and other industrial processes - of which residual amounts had built up in the ground and air could be a factor, which supports your earlier thoughts.

 

So it's like the goalposts are moving. On the railway today folk often say "you've stopped clearing the trees" and to a degree I've said it above, but in reality there's more to it than that.

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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26 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I believe the now banned sodium chlorate was rather more effective than that, killing the ground from new growth until the next application.

 

Agreed that above ground structures would need, and got, different treatment.

Sodium chlorate acted as a foliar contact herbicide and had a residual effect on the soil, so would suppress new germination, it's basically bleach when in the soil

23 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

That's probably so and as @tree monkey has informed us it takes different amounts to treat different parts of the plant. I know that the current stuff (unless things have changed very recently) requires to act on something that's sprouted some greenery and it loses effectiveness if applied during rainfall.

I don't know what they use, most likely glyphosate and possibly tryclofor (spelling).

Glyphosate has a translocated effect and is very effective if applied properly, there are formulations that are more resistant to rainfall but you are right rain will reduce the effect but to be fair this will happen with most pesticides.

Tryclofor has a similar action but more effective on woody stuff.

I don't think there are any residual herbicides left on the market certainly glyphosate and tryclofor don't have a residual effect 

4 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

One thing that's for sure is that there has been an explosion in the amount of vegetation growth in the past generation or so. Not just on railways - and more recent than it simply being the end of lineside fires started by steam locomotives - but also motorways and canals and the countryside in general. Find a picture from the 1980s and you'll find places once visible are now obscured by dense vegetation.

 

I think it's more than can be explained by climate change which over that timespan is very small, so it's likely the growing conditions of the air and particularly the soil have changed. The banning of certain chemicals - both intended for weedkilling and other industrial processes - of which residual amounts had built up in the ground and air could be a factor, which supports your earlier thoughts.

 

So it's like the goalposts are moving. On the railway today folk often say "you've stopped clearing the trees" and to a degree I've said it above, but in reality there's more to it than that.

 

I don't know about railways specifically but I do know there's been a big reduction in veg management along M ways, a drive down the M6 with me will bore the pants of most people as I rant about the state of the network ;)

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5 hours ago, tree monkey said:

Sodium chlorate acted as a foliar contact herbicide and had a residual effect on the soil, so would suppress new germination, it's basically bleach when in the soil

I don't know what they use, most likely glyphosate and possibly tryclofor (spelling).

Glyphosate has a translocated effect and is very effective if applied properly, there are formulations that are more resistant to rainfall but you are right rain will reduce the effect but to be fair this will happen with most pesticides.

Tryclofor has a similar action but more effective on woody stuff.

I don't think there are any residual herbicides left on the market certainly glyphosate and tryclofor don't have a residual effect 

I don't know about railways specifically but I do know there's been a big reduction in veg management along M ways, a drive down the M6 with me will bore the pants of most people as I rant about the state of the network ;)

The central reservation between Junc19 and 20(Lutterworth) on the M1 has some quite nicely growing trees that have been heading up for the last 6 or 7 years!!

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18 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

One thing that's for sure is that there has been an explosion in the amount of vegetation growth in the past generation or so. Not just on railways - and more recent than it simply being the end of lineside fires started by steam locomotives - but also motorways and canals and the countryside in general. Find a picture from the 1980s and you'll find places once visible are now obscured by dense vegetation.

 

I think it's more than can be explained by climate change which over that timespan is very small, so it's likely the growing conditions of the air and particularly the soil have changed. The banning of certain chemicals - both intended for weedkilling and other industrial processes - of which residual amounts had built up in the ground and air could be a factor, which supports your earlier thoughts.

 

So it's like the goalposts are moving. On the railway today folk often say "you've stopped clearing the trees" and to a degree I've said it above, but in reality there's more to it than that.

 

I wonder if the Clean Air Act has resulted in increased vegetation, remembering back to the days when any snow would have a nice black sooty crust.

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27 minutes ago, Pluto said:

I wonder if the Clean Air Act has resulted in increased vegetation, remembering back to the days when any snow would have a nice black sooty crust.

The reduced sulphur in the air increased the prevalence of black spot on your roses

Not sure if it has been mentioned but Dad, who worked on the footplate as a fireman said there were regular fires caused by hot ashes being thrown out of the stack when working hard.

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33 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned but Dad, who worked on the footplate as a fireman said there were regular fires caused by hot ashes being thrown out of the stack when working hard.

 

We lost a whole field of Wheat (and the boundary hedges) when a 'train-spark' set fire to the long dry grass on the embankment, the fire ran down the embankment and into the field of standing, dry Wheat.

 

I used to go to school on a coal-fired train. The smells as the 'specials' pass our current house still evoke strong memories.

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2 hours ago, tree monkey said:

The reduced sulphur in the air increased the prevalence of black spot on your roses

Not sure if it has been mentioned but Dad, who worked on the footplate as a fireman said there were regular fires caused by hot ashes being thrown out of the stack when working hard.

That certainly happened, but most lineside fires were controlled burns by the local perway gang when working in the area.

 

Sadly, mechanised maintenance put paid to the local gangs and diesels put paid to steam engine burns.  Now we have leaves on the line thanks to all the trees.

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10 hours ago, tree monkey said:

The reduced sulphur in the air increased the prevalence of black spot on your roses

Not sure if it has been mentioned but Dad, who worked on the footplate as a fireman said there were regular fires caused by hot ashes being thrown out of the stack when working hard.

My Dad who was a fireman was regularly fighting grass fires started on the embankments often scrub as well.

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