Another Sunk Boat.....Banbury

[David Horsburgh]

4 hours ago, dmr said:

People live on crappy boats for lots of reasons, some just want an easy selfish and cheap life, others have drink and drug addictions, lots have no money for various reasons. I have varying degrees of sympathy for these (ranging from zero to a fair amount), but the scary one is getting old because that's going to come to all of us.   A few years ago we witnessed a bloke in his 80's getting removed from his boat by his family and the CRT welfare officer, he wanted to stay on the boat but his family wanted him to stay alive, a difficult decision. 

 

I agree with dmr, how far can you take compassion before you just meet a wall or rudeness and walk away?  Thing is, our independent lifestyle is also independent for 'casualties' in our society. Apart from the Banbury sinking on Boxing Day morning (night), just yesterday, only 800 yards or so further south on the Oxford police broke into a boat due to concerns of boating neighbours. NB Whiskey Mac - they found the owner dead, probably for a month. Neighbours had talked to him about how he was but he refused all help. I was told that he looked ill and yellow in the face (liver?), he was believed to be a heavy drinker (I was told) .. .after not running his engine or using coal for a long while boating neighbours called the police. So sad really, as had he accepted help when it was offered they would have whisked him off to a hospital - but what can you do? You can only interfere so much and then you back away.

 

But, the thing is, and this is actually easy to see. The three dimensional personal space that humans create is an exact analogue image of how their mind is. This is something humans cannot hide. Look at the sunk Banbury boat, with all the junk on it ,and you can see, clearly, exactly how Steve's mind works - you can use this, this 'first tell' in any situation -- go forward and help, or walk quietly away!

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by David Horsburgh

[dmr]

The problem with scruffy boats is that the public visiting the canals (and house dwellers) don't like them and this gets us all a bad name.  Due to lockdowns etc we've spent a fair bit of time out in the sticks. Sometimes we were alone, sometimes a passing boat moored in the same pound for a while. The locals were almost all friendly and wanted to chat, but when a really untidy boat moored close then there was an immediate and obvious change in public attitude.

This is an observation, not a judgement, and I really don't know what the answer is.

[David Horsburgh]

12 minutes ago, dmr said:

The problem with scruffy boats is that the public visiting the canals (and house dwellers) don't like them and this gets us all a bad name.  Due to lockdowns etc we've spent a fair bit of time out in the sticks. Sometimes we were alone, sometimes a passing boat moored in the same pound for a while. The locals were almost all friendly and wanted to chat, but when a really untidy boat moored close then there was an immediate and obvious change in public attitude.

This is an observation, not a judgement, and I really don't know what the answer is.

 

I agree. I am in Banbury but just took the train down to Bath for family and Christmas. Went for a walk along the canal and couldn't believe how many decrepit boats were moored along there, they were almost countless, just went on and on, with really nice boats occasionally moored in between- doesn't give us a good image or name does it. Had thought of cruising down there in the spring when repair stoppages end - I think I may have changed my mind now!

Edited December 30, 2021 by David Horsburgh

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, David Horsburgh said:

 

I agree. I am in Banbury but just took the train down to Bath for family and Christmas. Went for a walk along the canal and couldn't believe how many decrepit boats were moored along there, they were almost countless, just went on and on, with really nice boats occasionally moored in between- doesn't give us a good image or name does it. Had thought of cruising down there in the spring when repair stoppages end - I think I may have changed my mind now!

 

There have I think, always been a proportion of scruffy unkempt boats on the cut. Certainly according to my mum and dad who as kids grew up near the GU and always warned ME as a child to avoid canal people as they could be trouble. A s teenager though remember there being scruffy boats but I don't remember boats with the roof piled high with just rubbish like we see often now.

 

There is no answer though. No-one has the right to tell other people how they should live their lives, scruffily or tidily. It IS their choice, just as it is their choice ultimately to refuse offers of help when to the outsider, they clearly need it. 

[dmr]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

There have I think, always been a proportion of scruffy unkempt boats on the cut. Certainly according to my mum and dad who as kids grew up near the GU and always warned ME as a child to avoid canal people as they could be trouble. A s teenager though remember there being scruffy boats but I don't remember boats with the roof piled high with just rubbish like we see often now.

 

There is no answer though. No-one has the right to tell other people how they should live their lives, scruffily or tidily. It IS their choice, just as it is their choice ultimately to refuse offers of help when to the outsider, they clearly need it. 

 

But its not that simple because we all have some collective responsibility and so if my personal choice impacts badly on those around me its no longer just a personal choice applying to myself.   If we don't police ourselves then eventually somebody else we do it for us and that will not be good. The really untidy boat dwellers will just move on to a van, or squat, or whatever, leaving the boat enthusiasts to suffer the new rules.

The big problem is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so leaving the decisions to an outside body with no boat experience  (a council?) will not be good..

As I have said before, I would always prefer a quirky well worn Springer to a tidy modern squareback widebeam with cartoon characters painted on the side.

 

Some stuff is easier, open frame air cooled diesel generators should not be allowed.

 

...........Dave

[rgreg]

Scruffy boats are one thing, but when the scruffiness spills onto the towpath it is unacceptable. The same scruffiness often goes hand- in-hand with breaches of the rules and antisocial behaviour. It's hardly surprising that this creates resentment from not only the  general public but responsible boaters too. 

 

[haggis]

I wonder what would happen down here if C&RT took a leaf out of Scottish Canals "rules" which say you must keep your boat in a tidy condition and you must not clutter up the towpath beside your moorings ( a lot of moorings have huts for boaters to store stuff in ). They enforce it too as I know of a couple of instances where folk have been told to tidy up their boat or remove it ! I think there is a happy medium somewhere between the different approaches to boats. 

 

Haggis

Edited December 30, 2021 by haggis

[Up-Side-Down]

1 hour ago, haggis said:

I wonder what would happen down here if C&RT took a leaf out of Scottish Canals "rules" which say you must keep your boat in a tidy condition and you must not clutter up the towpath beside your moorings ( a lot of moorings have huts for boaters to store stuff in ). They enforce it too as I know of a couple of instances where folk have been told to tidy up their boat or remove it ! I think there is a happy medium somewhere between the different approaches to boats. 

 

Haggis

But then remember that SC actively discourage boats from moving!

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Up-Side-Down said:

But then remember that SC actively discourage boats from moving!

 

 

But the remember that C&RT do very little to make movement easy.

[Victor Vectis]

1 hour ago, haggis said:

I wonder what would happen down here if C&RT took a leaf out of Scottish Canals "rules" which say you must keep your boat in a tidy condition and you must not clutter up the towpath beside your moorings < snip >

 

Yeahbut......How do they define 'tidy'?

[Up-Side-Down]

6 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

 

Yeahbut......How do they define 'tidy'?

That largely depends on which day of the week it is .........

[haggis]

15 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

 

Yeahbut......How do they define 'tidy'?

I know of an owner who got the warning letter because his canopy looked as if it could do with a clean. 

[booke23]

17 hours ago, MtB said:

A few decades back a modern day philosopher commented that "Nothing grips a man so securely as old age and poverty". 

 

That sounds just like something George Orwell would have said, although I can't find it either! A few examples from Orwell: 

 

“Poverty frees them from ordinary standards of behaviour, just as money frees people from work.”

 

“The mass of the rich and the poor are differentiated by their incomes and nothing else, and the average millionaire is only the average dishwasher dressed in a new suit.”

 

“I noticed how the attitude of women varies with a man's clothes. When a badly dressed man passes them they shudder away from him with a quite frank movement of disgust, as though he were a dead cat. Clothes are very powerful things.”

 

“A man receiving charity practically always hates his benefactor- it is a fixed characteristic of human nature”

 

The last quote being pertinent in this case perhaps. The interesting thing is all these quotes are from 'Down and Out in Paris and London' a book Orwell wrote about his experiences living in poverty in the late 1920's and early 1930's. It's funny how we think of this kind today's society (particularly younger people) think of this kind of thing being a modern affliction however it's been going on for as long as there has been money. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by booke23

[MtB]

26 minutes ago, booke23 said:

The last quote being pertinent in this case perhaps. The interesting thing is all these quotes are from 'Down and Out in Paris and London' a book Orwell wrote about his experiences living in poverty in the late 1920's and early 1930's. It's funny how we think of this kind of thing being a modern affliction however it's been going on for as long as there has been money. 

 

I'm not sure where you got that idea from! It's widely understood in my own circle of friends and acquaintances that poverty and all the traits that tag along with it have been with us since the dawn of time. In fact I'd suggest there is less poverty here in the UK nowadays than in decades and centuries before, mainly as a result of the welfare system which developed in the last century. You only have to read Dickens to see how people used to live and how far we have come in lifting the masses from poverty. 

 

One thing that IS clear about poverty is that no matter how much help/welfare/benefits are made available, there will be a tiny proportion of people whose free-will decisions keep them in dire straights however much is done for them. But the larger proportion of people who do get helped and lifted out, tend not to get noticed.

 

Agree with you very much though, that could have been (and might still turn out to be) an Orwell quote. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by MtB
Missing word

[booke23]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

I'm not sure where you got that idea from!

 

I phrased that badly and have edited my original post. When I say 'We' I was referring to modern day society in general, not myself or the learned members of this forum! 

Edited December 30, 2021 by booke23

[David Horsburgh]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I'm not sure where you got that idea from! It's widely understood in my own circle of friends and acquaintances that poverty and all the traits that tag along with it have been with us since the dawn of time. In fact I'd suggest there is less poverty here in the UK nowadays than in decades and centuries before, mainly as a result of the welfare system which developed in the last century. You only have to read Dickens to see how people used to live and how far we have come in lifting the masses from poverty. 

 

One thing that IS clear about poverty is that no matter how much help/welfare/benefits are made available, there will be a tiny proportion of people whose free-will decisions keep them in dire straights however much is done for them. But the larger proportion of people who do get helped and lifted out, tend not to get noticed.

 

Agree with you very much though, that could have been (and might still turn out to be) an Orwell quote. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have noticed that it costs a lot more to be poor nowadays

[MtB]

26 minutes ago, David Horsburgh said:

I have noticed that it costs a lot more to be poor nowadays

 

That's only due to the price of money being so high these days....

[Briss]

For the apparel oft proclaims the man,

 

Shakespeare knew this in the 1600s.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Briss

[ditchcrawler]

16 hours ago, MtB said:

 

There have I think, always been a proportion of scruffy unkempt boats on the cut. Certainly according to my mum and dad who as kids grew up near the GU and always warned ME as a child to avoid canal people as they could be trouble. A s teenager though remember there being scruffy boats but I don't remember boats with the roof piled high with just rubbish like we see often now.

 

There is no answer though. No-one has the right to tell other people how they should live their lives, scruffily or tidily. It IS their choice, just as it is their choice ultimately to refuse offers of help when to the outsider, they clearly need it. 

You see houses and gardens just the same.

[Victor Vectis]

I'll add a quote attributed to Bette Davis:

 

"Getting old ain't for sissies"

[Slim]

I'll add a quote (from my dad to my sister),

"Getting olds no fun"

[Jim Riley]

3 hours ago, Briss said:

For the apparel oft proclaims the man,

 

Shakespeare knew this in the 1600s.

 

Not one of old Bill's but apt, You can put a monkey in a suit but it's still a monkey.

Surprising how many are fooled by a criminal in a suit, especially if there is an Eton tie to match. I've heard some fools even vote for them.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Jim Riley

[tree monkey]

15 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Not one of old Bill's but apt, You can put a monkey in a suit but it's still a monkey.

Surprising how many are fooled by a criminal in a suit, especially if there is an Eton tie to match. I've heard some fools even vote for them.

Put this monkey in the poshest suit and within about 10mins I look like l scrounged it out of the reject pile from oxfam, I have now accepted this as a talent 

6 hours ago, booke23 said:

 

That sounds just like something George Orwell would have said, although I can't find it either! A few examples from Orwell: 

 

“Poverty frees them from ordinary standards of behaviour, just as money frees people from work.”

 

“The mass of the rich and the poor are differentiated by their incomes and nothing else, and the average millionaire is only the average dishwasher dressed in a new suit.”

 

“I noticed how the attitude of women varies with a man's clothes. When a badly dressed man passes them they shudder away from him with a quite frank movement of disgust, as though he were a dead cat. Clothes are very powerful things.”

 

“A man receiving charity practically always hates his benefactor- it is a fixed characteristic of human nature”

 

The last quote being pertinent in this case perhaps. The interesting thing is all these quotes are from 'Down and Out in Paris and London' a book Orwell wrote about his experiences living in poverty in the late 1920's and early 1930's. It's funny how we think of this kind today's society (particularly younger people) think of this kind of thing being a modern affliction however it's been going on for as long as there has been money. 

Orwell it must be said has a very conflicted view of the working class and the poverty that went with it, certainly in down and out he often gave the impression of a certain disgust at their lifestyle, an interesting chap

Edited December 30, 2021 by tree monkey

[gatekrash]

1 hour ago, Slim said:

I'll add a quote (from my dad to my sister),

"Getting olds no fun"

And to add the postscript from a mate of mine

 

'but it still beats the alternative'.

[booke23]

2 hours ago, tree monkey said:

Orwell it must be said has a very conflicted view of the working class and the poverty that went with it, certainly in down and out he often gave the impression of a certain disgust at their lifestyle, an interesting chap

I get the impression he was fundamentally sympathetic to the effect lack of money had on people, and the lack of opportunities people in that predicament were afforded. I've read his entire works and he's a very captivating writer and observationalist. If you liked down and out, The road to Wigan pier is also very interesting.