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CRT Spotters


Barry Orton

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2 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

You don't need a license to moor in Farndon. 

 

It is a condition of the connection agreement at Burton Waters that all boats must be licensed, hence the regular checks.

 

At Kings Marina (Newark) it is only a 2 minute walk from the C&RT offices so they do get regular licence checks - they are normally announced several days in advance and the date goes up on the notice board - it seems odd to see boats that 'never move' going out on the River for the day.

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2 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

You don't need a license to moor in Farndon. 

 

It is a condition of the connection agreement at Burton Waters that all boats must be licensed, hence the regular checks.

Yes I know that of course .

However C&RT did ask  about a walk over inspection some years ago but the marina refused . 

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3 hours ago, MartynG said:

Yes I know that of course .

However C&RT did ask  about a walk over inspection some years ago but the marina refused . 

It's not the boats actually in there that would be a problem, its all the boats CLAIMING to be in there that would be a problem for CRT.

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54 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

It's not the boats actually in there that would be a problem, its all the boats CLAIMING to be in there that would be a problem for CRT.

 

If C&RT wish to challenge the honesty of its customers they are free to do so. But C&RT are not free to enter private property without permission. Nor is  a marina free to reveal any data about its customers to  C&RT without prior consent from the customer. 

I am surprised any marina allows C&RT to enter its property for the purposes of checking up on whether  a boat is present or absent or for any other reason connected with boat licensing. 

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In all honesty, I have no problem with C&,RT doing whatever to track down boaters who are getting a free ride and not paying a licence fee. If this means checking boats in a marina that's fine by me. Unlicenced boats means that there is less money to spend on canal maintenance  and  that affects us all. 

 

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23 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

If C&RT wish to challenge the honesty of its customers they are free to do so. But C&RT are not free to enter private property without permission. Nor is  a marina free to reveal any data about its customers to  C&RT without prior consent from the customer. 

I am surprised any marina allows C&RT to enter its property for the purposes of checking up on whether  a boat is present or absent or for any other reason connected with boat licensing. 

So if the small print of the customer's contract with the marina says that the marina can pass this information on...

 

Also a marina might indeed be able to refuse entry to CART to check on the licensing status of boats moored there, but doing this would inevitably lead to the suspicion that they're being the equivalent of a tax haven for unlicensed boats, which is not going to earn them many CART brownie points.

 

Call me suspicious, but I can't help thinking that people who object to CART being able to check licenses (e.g. in marinas) are much more likely to be "on the fiddle" than genuinely worried about data protection laws -- see Alan's note about boats just happening to leave the marina for the one day a year when the checkers come visiting... 😉

Edited by IanD
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32 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

If C&RT wish to challenge the honesty of its customers they are free to do so. But C&RT are not free to enter private property without permission. Nor is  a marina free to reveal any data about its customers to  C&RT without prior consent from the customer. 

I am surprised any marina allows C&RT to enter its property for the purposes of checking up on whether  a boat is present or absent or for any other reason connected with boat licensing. 

Well put. 

The marina checker from CRT was soundly admonished last time he just drove in and wandered round the boats logging them without having signed in, asked permission, or even emailed in advance.

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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

So if the small print of the customer's contract with the marina says that the marina can pass this information on...

 

Also a marina might indeed be able to refuse entry to CART to check on the licensing status of boats moored there, but doing this would inevitably lead to the suspicion that they're being the equivalent of a tax haven for unlicensed boats, which is not going to earn them many CART brownie points.

 

Call me suspicious, but I can't help thinking that people who object to CART being able to check licenses (e.g. in marinas) are much more likely to be "on the fiddle" than genuinely worried about data protection laws -- see Alan's note about boats just happening to leave the marina for the one day a year when the checkers come visiting... 😉

 

For the avoidance of doubt my boat is genuinely declared off water while being in Farndon Marina and legitimately not licensed at present , thank you .

The marina does not allow C&RT in to check up on boats. I am not making  it up.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

I am surprised any marina allows C&RT to enter its property for the purposes of checking up on whether  a boat is present or absent or for any other reason connected with boat licensing. 

Any marina which is subject to the standard CRT Network Access Agreement has as one of the terms of that agreement a requirement that CRT staff are to be allowed in to check boat licences, and also a requirement to include a condition in their moorers' Ts and Cs that the moorers give their consent to relevant info being supplied to CRT.

None of this applies to a non NAA marina, such as one connected to a river navigation or which has 'grandfather rights' which predate the NAA.

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

If C&RT wish to challenge the honesty of its customers they are free to do so. But C&RT are not free to enter private property without permission. Nor is  a marina free to reveal any data about its customers to  C&RT without prior consent from the customer. 

I am surprised any marina allows C&RT to enter its property for the purposes of checking up on whether  a boat is present or absent or for any other reason connected with boat licensing. 

For all those marinas subject to the current Access Agreement it is a tautology - if the marina wishes to exist then it gives CaRT the access its contract requires. If not, it will soon cease to exist. Therefore, all such marinas comply.

 

I assume that Farndon is old enough not to be subject to the NAA. (It states to have been in operation for more than 50 years) It would also not want to be seduced into doing something that jeopardised its unusual status as I suspect that could be expensive.

 

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18 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I assume that Farndon is old enough not to be subject to the NAA. (It states to have been in operation for more than 50 years) It would also not want to be seduced into doing something that jeopardised its unusual status as I suspect that could be expensive.

 

9% of all possible mooring fees ...

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

For the avoidance of doubt my boat is genuinely declared off water while being in Farndon Marina and legitimately not licensed at present , thank you .

The marina does not allow C&RT in to check up on boats. I am not making  it up.

 

 

Why?

 

Even if you are genuinely off water and not licensed, this smells fishy -- maybe there are a significant number of less honest boaters than you paying mooring fees while hiding behind the marina's "no-access" shield to avoid paying for a license even when they leave the marina?

 

If boaters in the marina are either in your position (never leave the marina, canal equivalent to SORN) or do leave it but are licensed (also fine), what is the problem with allowing CART to inspect boats/licenses?

 

And like any other inspection (e.g. restaurants), pre-announcing a vist so that any license evaders can just happen to be out that day -- like Alan suggested -- is just inviting people to avoid paying.

 

Boaters bending or breaking the rules to avoid paying a CART license fee which goes to help keep the canals open is just another form of "I'm alright Jack" selfishness... 😞

Edited by IanD
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17 minutes ago, IanD said:

And like any other inspection (e.g. restaurants), pre-announcing a vist so that any license evaders can just happen to be out that day -- like Alan suggested -- is just inviting people to avoid paying.

 

If CRT cared they could always send spotters to check all local mooring sites the day of the preannounced visit and probably the day before too.

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1 hour ago, haggis said:

In all honesty, I have no problem with C&,RT doing whatever to track down boaters who are getting a free ride and not paying a licence fee. If this means checking boats in a marina that's fine by me. Unlicenced boats means that there is less money to spend on canal maintenance  and  that affects us all. 

 

I  don't mind C&RT being out along the waterways checking for unlicensed boats  and checking for overstaying boats while the boats are on C&RT water . I don't think C&RT do much of a job on that front as overstaying is commonplace in the area near us , including the pontoon immediately outside of the C&RT offices . One particular very large boat taking up a really nice visitor mooring at a lock further upstream and has done so for a couple of years if not longer.  Also liveaboard continuous cruisers  hogging 48 hr visitor moorings for weeks.

 

I don't like unlicensed boats for the reasons you state  and I have never broken the rules - but I also think people have a right to privacy when off C&RT water. 

Accepting  it has been pointed out most marinas can do nothing about it .  

 

 

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43 minutes ago, IanD said:

Why?

 

Even if you are genuinely off water and not licensed, this smells fishy -- maybe there are a significant number of less honest boaters than you paying mooring fees while hiding behind the marina's "no-access" shield to avoid paying for a license even when they leave the marina?

 

Why? = Because the marina can and does wish to protect the privacy of the owners of the many boats in the marina . 

As an example there are half a dozen boats within a stones throw of my mooring that never leave the marina and that is perfectly fine. I usually have a  license 6 or 7 months of the year and that is fine also . No license = stay in the marina . No rules bent or broken.

 

I have no doubt some boats go out without a license . C&RT are welcome to catch them at it.

I do not do so .

 

There is nothing  fishy about it nor are any rules being bent. Maybe you should do some research like you usually suggest to other  people .

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, matty40s said:

Well put. 

The marina checker from CRT was soundly admonished last time he just drove in and wandered round the boats logging them without having signed in, asked permission, or even emailed in advance.

 

I wonder if CRT have the right to turn up in a dingy with an outboard and cruise around a marina (on CRT-supplied water), noting which boats are present. This would get around the objections some have to CRT spotters walking the pontoons.

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On 23/12/2021 at 15:34, Alan de Enfield said:

 

C&RT said the lock-logs could not be used as they were not complied or maintained by the enforcement team. 

Some years we received a letter ( not email so tells you how long ago) Sayed we had overstayed at Ellesmere. We had been recorded there twice in 14 days but, we'd been up to Llangollen, paid to moor and had a receipt with our name on. And booked and been onto the Montgomery and back.

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19 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I wonder if CRT have the right to turn up in a dingy with an outboard and cruise around a marina (on CRT-supplied water), noting which boats are present. This would get around the objections some have to CRT spotters walking the pontoons.

If its an NAA marina then yes. If its a non NAA marina then they would be trespassing if they did so. And since boats in a non NAA marina aren't required (by CRT) to be licenced what would be the point? CRT can only take enforcement action when such boats are spotted outside the marina.

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31 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I wonder if CRT have the right to turn up in a dingy with an outboard and cruise around a marina (on CRT-supplied water), noting which boats are present. This would get around the objections some have to CRT spotters walking the pontoons.

 

I think that's probably tongue in cheek but in any case the answer is no since it would be trespass. I think the water is supplied rather than owned and the key issue is that of who owns the land beneath, Even on a leased facility I suspect permission would be required. A landlord doesn't have the right to enter a property without the tenant's permission.

 

ETA - @David Mack beat me to it but I don't agree that NAA makes any difference.

 

ETA a missing apostrophe 😲

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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6 minutes ago, pearley said:

Some years we received a letter ( not email so tells you how long ago) Sayed we had overstayed at Ellesmere. We had been recorded there twice in 14 days but, we'd been up to Llangollen, paid to moor and had a receipt with our name on. And booked and been onto the Montgomery and back.

Had the same recently at Hinkley, first time on the way up to Snarestone, second time on the way back. Two mooring locations a couple of hundred yards apart and with the boat facing in the opposite direction the second time. But the CRT spotting system doesn't record those details.But an emailed explanation back to CRT was accepted without question.

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