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Runaway Engine Woes


Ocean30

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49 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I will repeat, before stripping the injection pump be absolutely certain that the lift pump is not the problem. I have seen far more leaking lift pumps than injection pumps.

 

 

I just wish the usual suspect purveyor of odd 1.5 information would go to the YBW forum. Have you seen he knows that you sometimes just join the gauge and warning like sender wires to fit them to a single switch/sender. I worry about less experienced boaters swallowing his utterings hook line and sinker.

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39 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I just wish the usual suspect purveyor of odd 1.5 information would go to the YBW forum. Have you seen he knows that you sometimes just join the gauge and warning like sender wires to fit them to a single switch/sender. I worry about less experienced boaters swallowing his utterings hook line and sinker.

His spouting of supposed "knowledge" is worrying me too.  He pretends to know what he is talking about, inhaled from the internet, but then his lack of nous about just about everything is obvious to anyone with any experience. Unfortunately some may take it as gospel.

I will be amazed if his 1.5D in a lifeboat ever takes to the water, it would be a mercy if it sank again. The thought of him going to sea with that cocked up relic of an engine ( why call it a donkey? Perhaps because he is a jackass? ) is horrifying.

He is on the YBW forum already.

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Never inhaled anything from the net apart from parts for the best old classic donkey around. 

 

The OP has already pointed out that the lift pump did not cause the problem, although I would always change them when the HP pump is done, so the OP has not really wasted any dosh. If there is any sign of smoke at idle when warm, it's also worth getting the injectors checked to see if they need new tips, although I always try running Diesel Purge direct feed through them first to see if it's just gum. 

 

Never known of a BMC 1500 being called a cocked up relic on an actual BMC section of a canal boat forum. 

Edited by TNLI
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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I just wish the usual suspect purveyor of odd 1.5 information would go to the YBW forum. Have you seen he knows that you sometimes just join the gauge and warning like sender wires to fit them to a single switch/sender. I worry about less experienced boaters swallowing his utterings hook line and sinker.

 

There is no info with the wiring diagram of the gauges I'm using or the all purpose panel. The panel does have a wiring diagram that includes the gauges, and it does show different wires for the warning light and gauges wires.. In the end I'm not going to buy an adjustable warning box until I've got the engine running again with the new panel fitted.

 

If my present boat gets sunk, my next one is below, BUT they are a classic case of you get what you pay for from a lifeboat, as they cost around 4 grand with the extras like the sailing rig and canopy.

Portland Pudgey Dingy.jpg

Edited by TNLI
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Ooops! I was changing the oil in my BMC 1.5 this morning and noticed it was a bit stiff to pump out. Just as I started to finally suck air in after pumping out both the PRM 100 gearbox and block, guess what, the pump failed! 

  I've not removed it yet, but suspect the internal seal has fallen off inside the recently cleaned up bronze pump. Anyone know where I can buy another seal or heaven forbid, a new pump. Already sent enquiry mails to ASAP and Calcutta Boats  ??

 

More Portland Pudgey picture on their main web site:

Dinghy | Rowboat | Lifeboat | Dinghy Sailboat | Dinghy Motor (portlandpudgy.com)

 

Great, just found it's out of stock:

Manual Oil Change Sump Pump 3/8" BSP (asap-supplies.com)

 

Patay the pumps manufacturer does have one, BUT not sure if it has the same crew in fitting and would prefer to find a seal. Sent them a question about the base fitting.

Patay Oil Change Engine Sump Pump

 

Edited by TNLI
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The V8 Perkins in my old MF500 Drott. sprung a leak in the lift pump,......we ran the tractor for months with a sump full of diesel.....everyone said youve ruined the bearings,crank etc......anyhoo,decided to fix the pump ,hardest part was actually finding it.....it was on the side of the MiniMec inj pump........but the whole V of the Perk was solid with gravel and roadbase.........was like a archaelogic excavation to avoid busting anything......................new diaphragm ...and a seal .....these pumps should have a seal on the pullrod of the diaphragm.........New oil,and the Perk is back to 45psi all day..........but the commonest motors to get full of diesel and throw a rod are 53 and 71 ser  GMs 

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3 hours ago, TNLI said:

Ooops! I was changing the oil in my BMC 1.5 this morning and noticed it was a bit stiff to pump out. Just as I started to finally suck air in after pumping out both the PRM 100 gearbox and block, guess what, the pump failed! 

  I've not removed it yet, but suspect the internal seal has fallen off inside the recently cleaned up bronze pump. Anyone know where I can buy another seal or heaven forbid, a new pump. Already sent enquiry mails to ASAP and Calcutta Boats  ??

 

Calcutt Boats, not Calcutta.

 

You may well find that the bottom of the piston that holds the seal and delivery valve has fallen off. Unscrew the pump cap and have a look, don't guess

 

 

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3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Calcutt Boats, not Calcutta.

 

You may well find that the bottom of the piston that holds the seal and delivery valve has fallen off. Unscrew the pump cap and have a look, don't guess

Not known for guessing, and luckily the only thing wrong was the end cap had unscrewed. I did need to remove the pump, invert it and then spent 5 mins finding a long enough screw driver to poke the end cap out. Luckily I did not drop the small ball bearing that sits on top just above the end cap. Very easy job apart from the oily mess involved.

 

There is a similar pump available that is the same as the one from ASAP, that is made by Patay in the UK, Alas it has a steel body, so not the real McCoy.

 

 

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

Edited by TNLI
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10 minutes ago, Ocean30 said:

Has my thread been hijacked? Or am i

on someone else’s thread? 🤷🏼‍♂️🤪

 

He hijacks all and sundry threads about BMC 1.5s and completely screws them up. I have no idea why he won't keep things simple to understand and start his own topics as he needs them. he also gives his own opinions that often seem to have a tangential link to the topic and those with a long lifetime if experience finds much of his spouting not credible.

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46 minutes ago, Ocean30 said:

Has my thread been hijacked? Or am i

on someone else’s thread? 🤷🏼‍♂️🤪

It has suffered some drift and insults from all the usual sinners who think you have a BMC 1.5 rather than a less popular 1.8. The chief sinner does not even have a boat or a BMC, so does get a bit upset with those that do.

 

The Yanks will put you back on track with a free sample kit:

Blackstone Laboratories (blackstone-labs.com)

 

Posting a 200ml sample costs about a fiver, and the actual test costs 30 dollars. They e mail or even text the results with expert comments as required. 

 

Just requested 2 kits for the used oil in my old 1.5 Donkey which might still need running in, as the old oil looked very nasty. 

 

Can we bet on how much diesel is in your oil ?? Wild guess but I will vote for 15%.

 

How high was the oil level before your 1.8 went ran on and did it produce lots of black or grey smoke ??

 

If you are lucky, it might just be a case of the oil being overfilled and fed back through the breather tube, (If it has one), to the air filter. 

 

More 1.8 runaway opinions:  

The Norfolk Broads Forum - BMC 1.8 Diesel Problem (the-norfolk-broads.co.uk)

 

MAKE SURE YOU DON'T HAVE THE PROBLEM LISTED BELOW:

When we had a Broads cruiser a similar thing happened but it turned out to be the hydraulic drive. It was cured by topping up with fluid.

 

My 1.5 has a PRM 100 box that contains 2 liters of oil, if that finished up in the engine it's probably enough to cause a minor run on, IF that is what happened. The UOA results will tell you what is wrong, the folks here will not, we just guess!
 

Edited by TNLI
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Well the oil was about 3 litres over so pretty sure the injection pump is the culprit given the lift pump has been replaced and the oil continues to rise. It is indeed the 1.8. BMC. It will be going away to be sorted at the end of January. The gearbox and everything else works just fine. I’ll update this post as required for others who may come into similar issues although it was this forum that enabled me to diagnose what was happening! 

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38 minutes ago, Ocean30 said:

Well the oil was about 3 litres over so pretty sure the injection pump is the culprit given the lift pump has been replaced and the oil continues to rise. It is indeed the 1.8. BMC. It will be going away to be sorted at the end of January. The gearbox and everything else works just fine. I’ll update this post as required for others who may come into similar issues although it was this forum that enabled me to diagnose what was happening! 

That's one heck of a rise in oil level. It must have been real thin as a result, so not surprised it rattled. Good thing that oil was not in a turbo diesel, cos the bearings would have been fried. Diesel is good at cleaning sludge deposits, so I expect the sump and all important oil pump intake screen is now nice and clean.

 

How old were your lift and HP fuel pumps, and did you check the gearbox oil or hydraulic fluid level is OK ??

 

 

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13 hours ago, TNLI said:

It has suffered some drift and insults from all the usual sinners who think you have a BMC 1.5 rather than a less popular 1.8. The chief sinner does not even have a boat or a BMC, so does get a bit upset with those that do.

 

The Yanks will put you back on track with a free sample kit:

Blackstone Laboratories (blackstone-labs.com)

 

Posting a 200ml sample costs about a fiver, and the actual test costs 30 dollars. They e mail or even text the results with expert comments as required. 

 

Just requested 2 kits for the used oil in my old 1.5 Donkey which might still need running in, as the old oil looked very nasty. 

 

Can we bet on how much diesel is in your oil ?? Wild guess but I will vote for 15%.

 

How high was the oil level before your 1.8 went ran on and did it produce lots of black or grey smoke ??

 

If you are lucky, it might just be a case of the oil being overfilled and fed back through the breather tube, (If it has one), to the air filter. 

 

More 1.8 runaway opinions:  

The Norfolk Broads Forum - BMC 1.8 Diesel Problem (the-norfolk-broads.co.uk)

 

MAKE SURE YOU DON'T HAVE THE PROBLEM LISTED BELOW:

When we had a Broads cruiser a similar thing happened but it turned out to be the hydraulic drive. It was cured by topping up with fluid.

 

My 1.5 has a PRM 100 box that contains 2 liters of oil, if that finished up in the engine it's probably enough to cause a minor run on, IF that is what happened. The UOA results will tell you what is wrong, the folks here will not, we just guess!
 

 

More disinformation.

 

On a 1.5, 1.8 and the majority of relatively modern engines gearbox oil can not end up in the engine, if the front seal leaked it would end up in the drip tray/bilge.

 

If the oil in your gearbox ended up in the engine then unless there were sufficient clutch particles in it then no lab could identify it as gearbox oil because hydraulic PRMs use engine oil.

 

Only an idiot would not recognise the difference between overfilled engine oil and oil diluted about 50% with diesel. There is no need to go spending money on lab analysis to find out. On a 1.5 or 1.8 there are only two places that usually leak fuel into the sump. The lift pump or the injector pump. In very rare cases a dribbling injector just might allow it to happen but there would be other symptoms apart from the runaway. The OP changed the lift pump so it is all but 100% certain its the injector pump shaft seal,  especially on an old engine that is now running on low sulphur fuel.

 

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On 05/01/2022 at 08:54, Tony Brooks said:

I think you need 3/8 drive socket on a long "wobble bar" and ratchet for that nut.

I found that the easiest way to undo the nut in question was to grind down the sides of an open ended spanner. Replacing the said nut can be a bu**er as there's not enough room for the nut between the end of the stud and the engine ? block. I used 2 half nuts which were thin enough to fit in the space.

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I agree with TB that it is very unlikely that the box, (Hydraulic or manual), could leak into the engine and having done some insurance company and oil lab block failure research on the BMC, I already know it only lists 2 failure reasons that resulted in claims or UOA signs of main block failure. The only 2 listed are HP injection pump and crank shaft failure. Those data files were compiled before the use of low Sulphur diesel started, although the mostly truck, bus and train operators who only change oil or filters when the oil lab calls them, were complied many years ago, so the damage done by Red or cheap marine fuel to the lift pump might not have been recorded. 

 

As regards my BMC 1.5s PRM box, if the lift pump was moved to a lower position and its Y valve leaked, the box oil might start to fill up the engine crank case with more oil if the gearbox was topped up too often. Incredibly unlikely in my umbel opinion. 

 

There is no way a duff injector could cause serious fuel contamination unless the rings were real bad, all 4 injector tips were blown and it was used at idle too often. It would be an incredible heavy smoker!

Edited by TNLI
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2 hours ago, TNLI said:

I agree with TB that it is very unlikely that the box, (Hydraulic or manual), could leak into the engine and having done some insurance company and oil lab block failure research on the BMC, I already know it only lists 2 failure reasons that resulted in claims or UOA signs of main block failure. The only 2 listed are HP injection pump and crank shaft failure. Those data files were compiled before the use of low Sulphur diesel started, although the mostly truck, bus and train operators who only change oil or filters when the oil lab calls them, were complied many years ago, so the damage done by Red or cheap marine fuel to the lift pump might not have been recorded. 

 

As regards my BMC 1.5s PRM box, if the lift pump was moved to a lower position and its Y valve leaked, the box oil might start to fill up the engine crank case with more oil if the gearbox was topped up too often. Incredibly unlikely in my umbel opinion. 

 

There is no way a duff injector could cause serious fuel contamination unless the rings were real bad, all 4 injector tips were blown and it was used at idle too often. It would be an incredible heavy smoker!

 

If you want taking seriously can you use accepted UK terminology.  I doubt any BMC lift pump has a Y valve but the sump or oil drain pump might but as the gearbox should have a breather on it and the engine is what suffers crankcase pressure all the time it is running makes it far more likely that the engine oil would bet blown into the gearbox.

 

I think it is fair to suggest that experienced and qualified mechanics who have dealt with hundreds of BMC 1.X engines over 40 or 50 years plus probably have a far better insight in their foibles and common faults than any insurance company or oil lab who will only be consulted by a small minority of owners and even than only after a major problem/dispute.

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Referring to a sump oil draining pump as a lift pump in a diesel engine context is massively misleading.

If you cant' be bothered to use the correct names for engine parts, please stop posting as you will confuse some owners who have less technical knowledge.

Your use of such words as "donkey" for an engine is not funny, its childish and silly. Your opinion is not humble but is flawed.

Its not your thread anyway so butt out.

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Auxiliary engines in smallish sailing cruisers often used to be refered to as Donkey engines by their owners years ago, some still do.  Read Arther Ransome's ''We didn't mean to go to sea, or Secret Water''.  :closedeyes:

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Ooops! I was consummating my fish and chips whilst typing, so my last pist should say sump pump, not lift pump.

 

If I decide to call my diesel a Donkey, then some of you will just have to try and accept that common knickersname. Otherwise it will have to be handbags at dawn. 

 

 

Edited by TNLI
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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I don't think that means what you think it means ...

I can just see the story circulating round the A&E staff -- "He got burns there HOW?!?"

 

[when daughter was in St.Johns one of the ambulance staff told of a similar story involving a central heating radiator...]

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6 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Ooops! I was consummating my fish and chips whilst typing, so my last pist should say sump pump, not lift pump.

 

If I decide to call my diesel a Donkey, then some of you will just have to try and accept that common knickersname. Otherwise it will have to be handbags at dawn. 

 

 

A main engine wouldn't be called a Donkey, just the aux.,

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