Surveyor

[Trees]

Hello all,

 

Very long time lurker, first time poster.

 

I hope you all can help me, I'm in the process of buying a narrowboat in the North West and I'm trying to commission a survey.

 

I've been in contact with the well known surveyors such as Steve Hands, Mike Carter, Chris Williams, Ricky Tropman and others however since the boat is at the almost extreme end of the canal network as opposed to somewhere like Braunston, they either don't want to travel, haven't got avaliability until mid February or haven't got back to me (I guess they don't need the work).

 

This leaves me with the following;

Robert Burton of Burton Marine https://www.burtonmarine.com

So far my favourite - has avaliability but is fairly new to surveying. Doesn't appear to be a member of IIMS or YDSA but have sent an message to the IIMS to confirm he's a graduate of their course. (Maybe too much due dilligence but with no references I feel I have to dig deeper).

 

John Crompton of Small Boat Surveys https://www.smallboatsurveys.com/

Based in the area but there was an unhappy client with his services here;

 

Maybe I'm being overly fussy since that was several years ago? Plus in his T+Cs he says he scraps off the blacking at the inspection points and I believe that's a bit "old hat", plus the boat is 2 pack epoxied and I don't want to damage that as it should be good for a few years yet, plus I imagine I'd have to make good the damage if I don't go ahead with the purcase.

 

Mike Boulton of Blue Star Surveys http://www.bluestarsurveys.co.uk/

From what I've gathered he's more into GRP rather than steel narrowboats, plus has missed out vital systems in past surveys according to past threads on this forum.

 

I think there's also a Surveyor based either at the marina the brokers are based at, or the next marina over in the same village. Although the broker hasn't tried to push any particular surveyor onto me (I'd be wary of using broker recommended surveyors anyway), I wouldn't like to use a surveyor based near where the broker is based incase there's a conflict of interest I'm not aware of (e.g business relationships or drinking buddy at the local boozer).

 

Any comments will be very much appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Trees.

[Alan de Enfield]

If you really want a survey then you will find that pretty much all surveyors 'will miss something' in their survey, you just have to hope that they find the 'big expensive to fix' things.

 

A good surveyor will be booked up weeks / months ahead, any surveyor that ';can come tommorow' is quite likely one with a poor reputation and therefore not a lot of work.

 

Remember it is a minefield - you don;t have to have any qualification to call yourself a surveyor, and there is no requirement to belong to a surveyors organisation.

 

I wish you all the best - just minimise your risk and accept that the survey will never be 100% (My surveyor 'missed' the fact that a boat needed over £25,000 spnding on it. No recompense and not viable to take to court as the small print excluded any mistakes or omissions he made.

[mrsmelly]

How old is the boat? I never had a survey of any of my 8 boats, saved me thousands. Ive read many surveys and generaly they are not worth the paper they are written on. More get out clauses than soft Mick. Await incoming.

[David Mack]

For an indication of how a surveyor can leave you in the lurch, take a look at this thread.

 

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, Trees said:

 

 

I think there's also a Surveyor based either at the marina the brokers are based at, or the next marina over in the same village. Although the broker hasn't tried to push any particular surveyor onto me (I'd be wary of using broker recommended surveyors anyway), I wouldn't like to use a surveyor based near where the broker is based incase there's a conflict of interest I'm not aware of (e.g business relationships or drinking buddy at the local 

 

You are very suspicious, which isn't a bad thing. However, The reason they don't recommend the local surveyor might be that he/she finds lots wrong, and makes for a hard negotiation. 

 

Steve Hands is local to somewhere, but I can't believe for a minute that he would favour a broker over doing a good survey.

[Trees]

Thanks for the replies so far.

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you really want a survey then you will find that pretty much all surveyors 'will miss something' in their survey, you just have to hope that they find the 'big expensive to fix' things.

 

A good surveyor will be booked up weeks / months ahead, any surveyor that ';can come tommorow' is quite likely one with a poor reputation and therefore not a lot of work.

 

Remember it is a minefield - you don;t have to have any qualification to call yourself a surveyor, and there is no requirement to belong to a surveyors organisation.

 

I wish you all the best - just minimise your risk and accept that the survey will never be 100% (My surveyor 'missed' the fact that a boat needed over £25,000 spnding on it. No recompense and not viable to take to court as the small print excluded any mistakes or omissions he made.

I have read about your unfortunate situation with that sea going vessel Alan in past posts. You're right all I can do is minimise my risk - I plan to be there on survey day. Thank you for the best wishes.

 

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

How old is the boat? I never had a survey of any of my 8 boats, saved me thousands. Ive read many surveys and generaly they are not worth the paper they are written on. More get out clauses than soft Mick. Await incoming.

The boat is a 2005, built with a 10/6/5/4 shell. As far as I can tell it's been looked having taken several hours to go through the boat on 3 seperate visits including demonstration day with the broker.

 

Theres no sign of damp or condensation, window edges and vents bone dry - even when the rain was horizontal a couple of weeks ago, no smoke at all coming from the engine, nice clean and dry bilge, no excessive rust anywhere, electrical and heating system working, both a galvanic isolator and victron isolation transformer fitted, interior is orginal, etc. However as a newbie thats only rented a couple of times I would like an out of water survey to just confirm the state of the hull which I suspect is almost perfect and to confirm it has been 2 pack epoxied, as I cannot find an invoice to confirm this. Having lurked on this forum for a couple of years I can imagine if you was in my position you'd turn up with a bag of cash and buy this boat with no survey and no messing about

 

While I could afford any post-purchase disasters, I really don't want to spend a fortune on this boat and then find out it needs overplating and should've only really paid half for it.

 

46 minutes ago, David Mack said:

For an indication of how a surveyor can leave you in the lurch, take a look at this thread.

 

 

Thanks David for that. I've been watching David John's videos for a while now and watched that a couple of weeks ago. Very freightning and was hoping the original surveyor would be named so I could avoid, but I guess that's really wishful thinking as I completely understand why he wasn't named. I am paranoid about the state of the hull and really want to get this right the first time.

 

Thanks again for all the replies. I've been going through this purchase methodically and taking my time with this but will need to commission a survey soon. Thankfully it's December and not in the middle of the summer otherwise I'd be always beaten by people putting deposits down over the phone within hours of a boat coming up for sale.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Trees said:

I have read about your unfortunate situation with that sea going vessel Alan in past posts. You're right all I can do is minimise my risk - I plan to be there on survey day. Thank you for the best wishes.

 

 

Not just my Sea-going boats.

In the last 40+ years of buying and selling canal boats I have never, subsequenty, had a survey. It is a waste of money.

 

Other opinions are available.

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Its not a very old boat, the insurance co will not insist on a hull survey until it is 25 to 30 years old. 

 

It has an isolation transformer   AND  a galvanic isolator?  Unusual but belt and braces, the hull should be OK but it will depend on what waters it has been kept in. I would not be worried.

 

Very few boats have the base plate treated with anything in their entire lives, I would be pleased for you if yours had been 2 packed but would not be at all surprised if it had never had a coat of anything.

 

If you are happy with the interior and services, engine etc, why not get it pulled out and check the hull yourself? Any heavy pitting will be very obvious. Docks will be quiet in winter, too cold for blacking, so you could get a good price for an out and back in one day job.

Where in the NW is the boat?

 

As long as there is still 4mm of steel all over including in pit holes the insurance will give you comprehensive cover. A tyre tread depth gauge will tell you how deep the pits are.

You can even buy an ultrasonic thickness tester for very little money to do your own survey.

Most hull surveys are done with a 2 lbs scutch hammer, along the water line all round especially the stern above the counter plate, and around/in the weed hatch. A good bash will show any weakness.

 

If you employ a surveyor you will find that their report is worded in such a way that you have damn all come back on them if the boat is a lace curtain and they said it was OK. I have known boats that have been passed as fit at survey and have sunk within days.  I have never had a pre-purchase survey on any boat I have had.

[Trees]

11 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

You are very suspicious, which isn't a bad thing. However, The reason they don't recommend the local surveyor might be that he/she finds lots wrong, and makes for a hard negotiation. 

 

Steve Hands is local to somewhere, but I can't believe for a minute that he would favour a broker over doing a good survey.

 

Thanks for the reply Richard. To be fair to the broker he offered help in finding a surveyor but I've not taken him up on the offer (yet) due to my suspicious nature (i.e are they mates, etc) - although the reason is probably as innocent as to move things along quicker to get rid of the boat off their marina and get paid their commission - which I completely understand. The offer was accepted on Monday, deposit paid Tuesday and demonstration performed on Wednesday so I don't think I'm taking the preverbial and fustrating the process, plus I've been providing the broker with regular updates in finding a surveyor. I aim to get a surveyor booked in by Monday and will probably have to accept it's a bit more of a gamble than comissioning the Steve Hands and Ricky Tropman of the surveying world.

 

I'm probably too suspicious sometimes and massively overthink every little tiny detail but I try to maintain a balance - If I don't then I'd never buy a boat.

[Trees]

6 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its not a very old boat, the insurance co will not insist on a hull survey until it is 25 to 30 years old. 

 

It has an isolation transformer   AND  a galvanic isolator?  Unusual but belt and braces, the hull should be OK but it will depend on what waters it has been kept in. I would not be worried.

 

Very few boats have the base plate treated with anything in their entire lives, I would be pleased for you if yours had been 2 packed but would not be at all surprised if it had never had a coat of anything.

 

If you are happy with the interior and services, engine etc, why not get it pulled out and check the hull yourself? Any heavy pitting will be very obvious. Docks will be quiet in winter, too cold for blacking, so you could get a good price for an out and back in one day job.

Where in the NW is the boat?

 

As long as there is still 4mm of steel all over including in pit holes the insurance will give you comprehensive cover. A tyre tread depth gauge will tell you how deep the pits are.

You can even buy an ultrasonic thickness tester for very little money to do your own survey.

Most hull surveys are done with a 2 lbs scutch hammer, along the water line all round especially the stern above the counter plate, and around/in the weed hatch. A good bash will show any weakness.

 

If you employ a surveyor you will find that their report is worded in such a way that you have damn all come back on them if the boat is a lace curtain and they said it was OK. I have known boats that have been passed as fit at survey and have sunk within days.  I have never had a pre-purchase survey on any boat I have had.

 

Thanks Tracy for the reply. Yes I'm suprised too about the GI and IT. I guess the GI came with the boat and the IT was added later. This was one of the reasons why I put in an offer as I've read the horror stories about galvanic corrosion. The boat is on the Lancaster.

 

I did initially think to myself to do it DIY when the best surveyors came back with 2 month wait times/no can't help but I fugured for the sake of £600 for a full pre-purchase survey (although I'm toying with the idea of hull only) I'd rather get a professional (any professional that doesn't have a history full of terrible references, which to be fair I haven't found) with calibrated equipment along with some sort of an idea what they're doing and paid advice over a cup of tea afterwards. I will be there when the day comes so I can query anything which I think doesn't look right.

 

I admire the posters who have the confidence and knowledge to just buy a boat with a bag full of cash and not mess about with surveys. Maybe I'll do the same years down the line but since I'm new to this I simply have to get a second professional opinion. I get that surveyors have get out clauses and cover their backsides, etc but I don't think I'll enjoy the boating constantly thinking "what if...". The survey, while not fullproof or perfect, will somewhat give me some piece of mind.

 

 

 

 

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, Trees said:

Thanks for the replies so far.I have read about your unfortunate situation with that sea going vessel Alan in past posts.

You dont need to feel for Alan because he was screwed over after a survey... he also enjoys the opportunity to tell the tale where he screwed somebody over for £40,000, (or whatever), because they didn't have some paperwork, and he had his handy bag of cash.

[matty40s]

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

 I never had a survey of any of my 8 boats, saved me thousands.......... Await incoming.

I cant believe you've never told us that before.🙂

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I cant believe you've never told us that before.🙂

 

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I cant believe you've never told us that before.🙂

 

3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I cant believe you've never told us that before.🙂

 

3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I cant believe you've never told us that before.🙂

**************************************************************************************And once more!******************************* for luck.

 

3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I cant believe you've never told us that before.🙂

 

[Tacet]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No recompense and not viable to take to court as the small print excluded any mistakes or omissions he made.

I'd love to know the magic words that absolve the surveyor of all liability.  Makes you wonder why professional indemnity insurance is so expensive, if all claims can be avoided by a bit of small print.

 

Did you read the small print before commissioning the survey?

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Did you read the small print before commissioning the survey?

 

I certainly learnt my lesson that day.

Since then I never 'tick the box' that pops up and says "I agree to the terms and conditions' without reading them.

 

That includes C&RTS licence T&Cs of which many are unenforceable as C&RT do not have the power to change or ignore the 'laws of the land' (which some of their T&Cs do).

[David Mack]

So 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Since then I never 'tick the box' that pops up and says "I agree to the terms and conditions' without reading them.

So you read all the way through online Ts and Cs and thoroughly consider all the implications before ticking the box? Or do you never buy anything online?

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So 

So you read all the way through online Ts and Cs and thoroughly consider all the implications before ticking the box? Or do you never buy anything online?

 

 

No, I buy quite a lot online and always read the T&Cs and make an informed decision as to buy or not - if you don't read them then don't complain when you suddenly find you agreed to something you don't like.

 

There are some where there is no (or little) choice elsewhere (Bank debit card, Amazon, Paypal, Google etc) so do just agree in those cases, but buying a Christmas present from some obsure supplier with a weid name (just purchased  some souvenir mugs from "PoshBananas") will always make sure that there is nothing dubious in their conditions and that my card details are not kept on file after the single transaction.

[TheBiscuits]

Try Jonathan Jackson.  zero7779 011316

 

He travels a lot further south than Garstang, but he does quite a few up that way.  

[MtB]

 

12 hours ago, Trees said:

Hello all,

 

Very long time lurker, first time poster.

 

I hope you all can help me, I'm in the process of buying a narrowboat in the North West and I'm trying to commission a survey.

 

 

I have to ask, as I don't think anyone else has. Why do you want a professional survey? Is it for insurance purposes, or for a valuation, or for something else? I ask because they give you no more guaranteed certainty about the condition of the boat than you can see for yourself, in which case you might as well do the survey yourself and save the £500 the surveyor will be charging you. 

 

Have the boat docked and turn up with your Mk1 eyeballs and a decent hammer, and have a walk around the boat having a good close look. ideally ask the guys operating the dock to have a walk around the hull with you too pointing out anything they notice wrong - although you are as likely to spot any trouble as anyone else. They will probably know as much about assessing hull condition as any surveyor.  

 

Then have a good look through the interior, lifting boards, finding and inspecting tanks, pumps etc and making sure everything works as it should. This pretty much covers what a surveyor will do, other than the surveyor will take notes and write down everything he saw to afterwards send to you as a "survey report". You obviously don't need to do this time-consuming bit!

 

Just an idea.

 

On the other hand, one advantage of getting a professional survey is they will often be able to do you a new BSS ticket at the same time, which you obviously can't do for yourself. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[john.k]

Ive done boat pre purchase surveys,and the safest way is knock everything as being rubbish unless its brand new.......this more or less guarantees you will get another fee to inspect another boat,and maybe even a third.

[LadyG]

6 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

I have to ask, as I don't think anyone else has. Why do you want a professional survey? Is it for insurance purposes, or for a valuation, or for something else? I ask because they give you no more guaranteed certainty about the condition of the boat than you can see for yourself, in which case you might as well do the survey yourself and save the £500 the surveyor will be charging you. 

 

Have the boat docked and turn up with your Mk1 eyeballs and a decent hammer, and have a walk around the boat having a good close look. ideally ask the guys operating the dock to have a walk around the hull with you too pointing out anything they notice wrong - although you are as likely to spot any trouble as anyone else. They will probably know as much about assessing hull condition as any surveyor.  

 

Then have a good look through the interior, lifting boards, finding and inspecting tanks, pumps etc and making sure everything works as it should. This pretty much covers what a surveyor will do, other than the surveyor will take notes and write down everything he saw to afterwards send to you as a "survey report". You obviously don't need to do this time-consuming bit!

 

Just an idea.

 

On the other hand, one advantage of getting a professional survey is they will often be able to do you a new BSS ticket at the same time, which you obviously can't do for yourself. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was watching a welder who was over plating following a surveyor's report, he reckoned the boat needed very little overplating, in that most of the hull was sound. The cost, I think, was £5K at winter rates, ie to keep him in work, but he thought he could have done the work needed in less than a week, so with a fairly new boat, if builder has good reputation, I would go with the self test hammer, a good wash being essential. 

It depends on your risk aversion/assessment. If you are you going to be unhappy with what you see, will you walk away? 

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I was watching a welder who was over plating following a surveyor's report, he reckoned the boat needed very little overplating, in that most of the hull was sound.

 

 

This is commonplace I suspect, driven by the way insurance companies blindly demand a minimum hull thickness of 4mm. The surveyor finds one single pit 2mm deep and bang, overplating the whole boat gets prescribed, as if it is at some sort of risk of imminent sinking.