Hydrogen fuel- the future?

[Heartland]

The announcement that Cox Marine is working with the University of Brighton to convert one of its CX0300 Outboard Diesel engines for duel fuel use for Hydrogen. Could this be another step forward for increased use of hydrogen as a fuel source. 

 

There has been much talk of late about Green Hydrogen, which is hydrogen produced from renewable energy. Whether this source is sufficient is a matter for those capable of meeting increased demand, if they can. But then would any hydrogen be suitable to ensure more hydrogen is used in transport. Those that talk about C0 2 emissions are based on certain criteria. We live in a world where China has the greatest emissions of CO2 and Greenland the least. In the UK it is about 1 % of the world emissions. So, how much does it matter where the source of Hydrogen is obtained ?

 

I personally believe there is still a source of hydrogen through the carbonisation of coal which if conducted under modern technology achievements could produce organic gases, hydrogen and useful by-products to meet the CO2 criteria, but there are those that oppose any form of fossil fuels and at present their voices carry weight.

 

In the past there was an immense industry, in Britain, associated with getting coal that was important in iron smelting and working up. Getting the coal was fraught with danger with fatalities caused through roof falls, machinery failures, explosions, poisoning by gas in the mine, or flooding of the workings. This legacy of injury and death did not do any credit to that industry and still is ever present in the surviving mines in the parts of the globe where coal is still mined. Yet it was, and is, a provider of employment and wages. 

 

There is still the need for coal in UK industry today and if that supply ended so would more aspects of the remaining industrial base. Balancing this situation is difficult but seemingly there is the gradual move away from any reliance on fossil fuels and an increased reliance on fuels from other sources and this included the gas, hydrogen.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

Good grief man, you cant say any of this. The ONLY way forward, and indeed the single saviour of the planet are lectric batteries and BEV cars. You will be advocating nuclear power next!!

[peterboat]

23 minutes ago, Heartland said:

The announcement that Cox Marine is working with the University of Brighton to convert one of its CX0300 Outboard Diesel engines for duel fuel use for Hydrogen. Could this be another step forward for increased use of hydrogen as a fuel source. 

 

There has been much talk of late about Green Hydrogen, which is hydrogen produced from renewable energy. Whether this source is sufficient is a matter for those capable of meeting increased demand, if they can. But then would any hydrogen be suitable to ensure more hydrogen is used in transport. Those that talk about C0 2 emissions are based on certain criteria. We live in a world where China has the greatest emissions of CO2 and Greenland the least. In the UK it is about 1 % of the world emissions. So, how much does it matter where the source of Hydrogen is obtained ?

 

I personally believe there is still a source of hydrogen through the carbonisation of coal which if conducted under modern technology achievements could produce organic gases, hydrogen and useful by-products to meet the CO2 criteria, but there are those that oppose any form of fossil fuels and at present their voices carry weight.

 

In the past there was an immense industry, in Britain, associated with getting coal that was important in iron smelting and working up. Getting the coal was fraught with danger with fatalities caused through roof falls, machinery failures, explosions, poisoning by gas in the mine, or flooding of the workings. This legacy of injury and death did not do any credit to that industry and still is ever present in the surviving mines in the parts of the globe where coal is still mined. Yet it was, and is, a provider of employment and wages. 

 

There is still the need for coal in UK industry today and if that supply ended so would more aspects of the remaining industrial base. Balancing this situation is difficult but seemingly there is the gradual move away from any reliance on fossil fuels and an increased reliance on fuels from other sources and this included the gas, hydrogen.

 

 

Its a waste of time! If and electric car cost 30k and can on the right tarif cost a penny a mile to travel, a hydrogen car cost 60k and costs a minimum of 4 pence a mile and this is on the dirtiest hydrogen with no carbon capture

There is no hydrogen infrastructure other than the very few stations [12] and the hydrogen that can be made by green energy means will just be able to support industry.

A hydrogen engine is a specialised bit of kit Westport bought out OMVL to get the rights to one a good few years ago, whether it works I have no idea but huge money changed hands for it.

Hydrogen is being promoted by fossil fuel companies so they can keep on raking in the dosh whilst polluting us, its called green washing

[phantom_iv]

Indeed. If you can't see CRT/others installing electric charging points all over the canals then you have to wonder who's going to install all the hydrogen transportation/filling infrastructure.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Good grief man, you cant say any of this. The ONLY way forward, and indeed the single saviour of the planet are lectric batteries and BEV cars. You will be advocating nuclear power next!!

Lets leave the Germans and the French to fight over that

[jake_crew]

At least this green hydrogen will produce similar amounts of green oxygen which should be good for us.

 

Though I'm not sure how much of a greenhouse gas oxygen is ????

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Heartland said:

The announcement that Cox Marine is working with the University of Brighton to convert one of its CX0300 Outboard Diesel engines for duel fuel use for Hydrogen. Could this be another step forward for increased use of hydrogen as a fuel source. 

 

There has been much talk of late about Green Hydrogen, which is hydrogen produced from renewable energy. Whether this source is sufficient is a matter for those capable of meeting increased demand, if they can. But then would any hydrogen be suitable to ensure more hydrogen is used in transport. Those that talk about C0 2 emissions are based on certain criteria. We live in a world where China has the greatest emissions of CO2 and Greenland the least. In the UK it is about 1 % of the world emissions. So, how much does it matter where the source of Hydrogen is obtained ?

 

I personally believe there is still a source of hydrogen through the carbonisation of coal which if conducted under modern technology achievements could produce organic gases, hydrogen and useful by-products to meet the CO2 criteria, but there are those that oppose any form of fossil fuels and at present their voices carry weight.

 

In the past there was an immense industry, in Britain, associated with getting coal that was important in iron smelting and working up. Getting the coal was fraught with danger with fatalities caused through roof falls, machinery failures, explosions, poisoning by gas in the mine, or flooding of the workings. This legacy of injury and death did not do any credit to that industry and still is ever present in the surviving mines in the parts of the globe where coal is still mined. Yet it was, and is, a provider of employment and wages. 

 

There is still the need for coal in UK industry today and if that supply ended so would more aspects of the remaining industrial base. Balancing this situation is difficult but seemingly there is the gradual move away from any reliance on fossil fuels and an increased reliance on fuels from other sources and this included the gas, hydrogen.

 

 

Loads of threads discussing this, the killer issue even for "green" hydrogen is 3x higher consumption of (renewable) energy than BEV, never mind the storage/distribution issues.

 

Might work for niche applications where BEV are not practical, but won't solve the real problem which is mass transport.

[Bacchus]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 niche applications where BEV are not practical.

 

LoL - so currently anyone who wants to drive more than about 100 miles without two-hour "comfort" breaks, tow a trailer, drive a van, truck, motorhome, or lorry, drive anywhere cold and dark... shipping, flight, long distance rail, plant, construction machinery... basically 95% of all transport is "niche"?

 

BEV definitely has its place (mainly personal city transport at the moment), it is exciting technology, but a panacea it is not. As our scientists search towards solutions, they will need to take a holistic approach to the issues. Generating electricity from "renewables" is great, but the biggest issue is that it is rarely generated where, and when, it is needed. A medium for storage (ideally one that weighs less per stored unit than batteries...), will be an essential cog in the machine, and hydrogen could certainly form part of the solution.

 

 

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, Bacchus said:

 

LoL - so currently anyone who wants to drive more than about 100 miles without two-hour "comfort" breaks, tow a trailer, drive a van, truck, motorhome, or lorry, drive anywhere cold and dark... shipping, flight, long distance rail, plant, construction machinery... basically 95% of all transport is "niche"?

 

BEV definitely has its place (mainly personal city transport at the moment), it is exciting technology, but a panacea it is not. As our scientists search towards solutions, they will need to take a holistic approach to the issues. Generating electricity from "renewables" is great, but the biggest issue is that it is rarely generated where, and when, it is needed. A medium for storage (ideally one that weighs less per stored unit than batteries...), will be an essential cog in the machine, and hydrogen could certainly form part of the solution.

 

 

<sigh> go and read the past threads, all these arguments have already been made and answered, especially the ones on bold which are basically anti-BEV BS. Long-distance rail -- ever heard of electric trains? Plant/construction machinery -- already starting to go electric.

 

Hydrogen is *not* a solution for most (road) transport until we have unlimited free renewable energy and can afford to waste vast amounts of it -- so maybe when fusion power comes along. But hydrogen is the last gasp of the fossil-fuel industry and its backers, and they'll all be gone before fusion comes along...

 

Flight is the biggest problem by far for BEV, but it's not clear that hydrogen is a good solution for this (density, volume, weight of tanks) compared to other "green" fuels like methanol or bio-fuel or HVO. The main fixes are to fly less and pay more.

 

Long-distance shipping is the next most difficult due to the long distances -- but actually a few thousand tons of batteries would do the job, and diesel engines already weigh that. Sounds like a lot, but total battery capacity required is still small compared to cars and trucks. The main fixes are to go slower, and ship less cheap tat around the planet.

 

Instead of just posting LoLs, why don't you actually go and read some of the properly thought-through analyses on future transport options, and then come back with some sensible questions/statements?

Edited December 16, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

22 minutes ago, Bacchus said:

 

LoL - so currently anyone who wants to drive more than about 100 miles without two-hour "comfort" breaks, tow a trailer, drive a van, truck, motorhome, or lorry, drive anywhere cold and dark... shipping, flight, long distance rail, plant, construction machinery... basically 95% of all transport is "niche"?

 

BEV definitely has its place (mainly personal city transport at the moment), it is exciting technology, but a panacea it is not. As our scientists search towards solutions, they will need to take a holistic approach to the issues. Generating electricity from "renewables" is great, but the biggest issue is that it is rarely generated where, and when, it is needed. A medium for storage (ideally one that weighs less per stored unit than batteries...), will be an essential cog in the machine, and hydrogen could certainly form part of the solution.

 

 

So 400 miles range isnt enough? With rapid charging available as well 

[nicknorman]

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

So 400 miles range isnt enough? With rapid charging available as well 

No. 425 miles for us from home to boat. Although it is true that I might need a pee break along the way!

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

No. 425 miles for us from home to boat. Although it is true that I might need a pee break along the way!

Only one! I need  a couple and a drink at least. 

[Tractor]

Arrrrggh, I think I need a lie down…………..

[Heartland]

For those wishing to lie down may be a long dark tunnel might be a suitable place

But the reason for the post was the use of hydrogen as a fuel in outboard engines and the the practicality of using hydrogen in commercial amounts. Clearly there is a feeling that electric vehicles are the way forward and perhaps to only way.

The use of BEV as term does deserve some comment, An early use of BEV, if people know industrial locomotives, was British Electric Vehicles, or Wingrove & Rogers, who supplied early electric locomotives.

Brighton University is not the only place where the techology of hydrogen as a fuel source is being investigated, Birmingham have long worked with Fuel Cell technology and their fuel cell boat is still moored on the Worcester & Birmingham Canal close to the University

There are craft on our inland waterways that use outboard motors, it may be of use to hear from one of those who own such a craft and as to the possibilities of using such a fuel option

 

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, Heartland said:

For those wishing to lie down may be a long dark tunnel might be a suitable place

But the reason for the post was the use of hydrogen as a fuel in outboard engines and the the practicality of using hydrogen in commercial amounts. Clearly there is a feeling that electric vehicles are the way forward and perhaps to only way.

The use of BEV as term does deserve some comment, An early use of BEV, if people know industrial locomotives, was British Electric Vehicles, or Wingrove & Rogers, who supplied early electric locomotives.

Brighton University is not the only place where the techology of hydrogen as a fuel source is being investigated, Birmingham have long worked with Fuel Cell technology and their fuel cell boat is still moored on the Worcester & Birmingham Canal close to the University

There are craft on our inland waterways that use outboard motors, it may be of use to hear from one of those who own such a craft and as to the possibilities of using such a fuel option

 

There's always plenty of investigation into hydrogen going on, the theory is one thing but the practicalities (generation, distribution, storage, volume) are where it always falls over -- so lots of academic papers and university research, but actual potential users are backing away from it. The fuel cell boat is still moored for good reasons...

 

If there's a case where batteries won't do the job, more CO2-friendly liquid fuels like HVO/methanol are a lot better than fossil fuels and far more practical than hydrogen.

Edited December 17, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

 

For anyone either for or against Hydrogen it may be worth reading this (August 2021) document which follows on from the 2050 Plan documents published in 2019.

Already the Government has Hydrogen plants running in the North East and some coastal ferries converted to Hydrogen.

The distribution plan is to utilise the existing mains gas system.

 

British companies such as ITM Power, Johnson Matthey and Ceres Power are already producing the technology for low and zero carbon hydrogen, and they and many others are pushing new innovations all the time. The Orkney Islands in Scotland have generated global interest in a range of projects that show how challenges in a local energy system can sometimes be overcome with hydrogen; here producing hydrogen from excess renewable electricity that would otherwise has gone to waste, and using it to support decarbonisation of road transport, heat and ferry related activities. Across the UK, pioneering production and use projects have provided lessons, stimulated further research and innovation, and pointed the way to what is needed to deploy production capacity at pace and scale, and to unlock hydrogen as a low carbon fuel for new applications across the energy system

 

The UK map is from the 2019 Planning document.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This second Uk map shows the planned Hydrogen developments (extract from the Hydrogen plan and the Government white paper)

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

For anyone either for or against Hydrogen it may be worth reading this (August 2021) document which follows on from the 2050 Plan documents published in 2019.

Already the Government has Hydrogen plants running in the North East and some coastal ferries converted to Hydrogen.

The distribution plan is to utilise the existing mains gas system.

 

 

 

 

 

I've read it. It works for niche cases like the ones mentioned, maybe also for depot-based vehicles like buses and fleet-based distribution. It doesn't work for wider transport applications like cars and trucks which burn the vast majority of transport fossil fuels. It ignores the appallingly inefficient use of renewable energy. It doesn't make any sense for domestic heating and cooking for the same reason.

 

Solving 1% of the CO2 emissions problem by wasting renewable energy is not solving it... 😞

Edited December 17, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

I've read it. It works for niche cases like the ones mentioned, maybe also for depot-based vehicles like buses and fleet-based distribution. It doesn't work for wider transport applications like cars and trucks which burn the vast majority of transport fossil fuels. It ignores the appallingly inefficient use of renewable energy. It doesn't make any sense for domestic heating and cooking for the same reason.

 

Solving 1% of the CO2 emissions problem by wasting renewable energy is not solving it... 😞

 

Irresepctive of you saying "it is a waste", it is the Governments intention to introduce these plans into law and they are all detailed in the White Paper (which means they are planned to be introduced into legislation).

[IanD]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Irresepctive of you saying "it is a waste", it is the Governments intention to introduce these plans into law and they are all detailed in the White Paper (which means they are planned to be introduced into legislation).

They can introduce any plans they want to, and as I said these might even turn into reality in a few small-scale applications -- or they might end up like the hydrogen narrowboat, moored up and gently rusting...

 

What they (and hydrogen, green or not) won't do is solve the big CO2 problems in the UK with transport, domestic heating and cooking.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Heartland said:

For those wishing to lie down may be a long dark tunnel might be a suitable place

But the reason for the post was the use of hydrogen as a fuel in outboard engines and the the practicality of using hydrogen in commercial amounts. Clearly there is a feeling that electric vehicles are the way forward and perhaps to only way.

The use of BEV as term does deserve some comment, An early use of BEV, if people know industrial locomotives, was British Electric Vehicles, or Wingrove & Rogers, who supplied early electric locomotives.

Brighton University is not the only place where the techology of hydrogen as a fuel source is being investigated, Birmingham have long worked with Fuel Cell technology and their fuel cell boat is still moored on the Worcester & Birmingham Canal close to the University

There are craft on our inland waterways that use outboard motors, it may be of use to hear from one of those who own such a craft and as to the possibilities of using such a fuel option

 

Said boat hasn't moved for years! And where are you going to buy hydrogen from? We have it a couple of miles from here on a day like today the pumps freeze up hardly what people on boats want 

[phantom_iv]

Can't really see hydrogen on boats being viable tbh. Some combination of batteries, solar, with charging points and synfuel generators as backup seems to be more likely. 

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

Can't really see hydrogen on boats being viable tbh. Some combination of batteries, solar, with charging points and synfuel generators as backup seems to be more likely. 

Agreed, assuming by synfuel you mean HVO or something similar. Charging points across the network are going to be a long time coming though, IIRC there are a handful of trial ones in London but no proper plan on how to roll these out across the system -- CART are strapped for cash and can't afford to invest in this and the government has little interest in making it happen either.

 

The other problem is that electric/hybrid boats today are where BEVs were some time ago -- all very nice and sexy high-tech but still far too expensive (battery costs might be dropping but marine diesel generators are not) for most boaters, and even more so for retrofitting, the costs need to come down a lot to get to the point where they become acceptable to most of the market. Just like happened with BEVs, but there are no equivalents to the big car companies investing to make this price drop happen for narrowboats... 😞

Edited December 17, 2021 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The distribution plan is to utilise the existing mains gas system.   

I didn't realise until this week that the old Town Gas had a hydrogen content to it 

[Steilsteven]

A very interesting interview here on the future of international shipping in a decarbonised World.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001286x