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luggsy

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23 minutes ago, MartynG said:

On a river its wise to moor facing into the flow .  If that's not possible  it could be better to get a stern rope on first . There will always be exceptions to rules.

Indeed there are always exceptions.

 

We have arrived at Great Yarmouth yacht station heading downstream towards Breydon with the full force of the spring tide going with us. Much to the yacht station attendants disbelief we moored with the flow in a tight gap between boats with some excellent helmsmanship from the other half and quickly securing the stern line first. The flow settled the boat alongside while we sorted out the remainder of the ropes.

 

When asked why we had chosen to do that rather then turn into the flow as is traditionally the case we pointed out the layout of the boat which made it much simpler and safer to leave the boat with the port side alongside. The decks were not symmetrical and the starboard walkway was much narrower than the port deck to the point of being difficult to use. 

 

There are always exceptions and situations where you have to moor in a manner which would otherwise be unsuitable or undesirable. 

50 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Not always possible on canals at locks - I know of one or two places where clear signage indicates the importance of getting a stern rope ashore - eg Gloucester from upstream. I think there is one on K&A as well. 

 

I once followed a hire boat stuck below Sileby lock with a lot of fresh on the river. They had taken a bow rope ashore and firmly tied it to a bollard. But they could not hold the stern - no steerer on board. As the boat swung around the curve of the bow meant that the bow rope jammed and in the end we had to cut the rope!

There are always exceptions.

 

In that case you would have to ask why they both left the helm?

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31 minutes ago, MartynG said:

On a river its wise to moor facing into the flow .  If that's not possible  it could be better to get a stern rope on first . There will always be exceptions to rules.

I've never really understood this one, and since I'm on my own I don't do this.  I always get my stern line tied first when I'm on a river with a reasonable flow, and as far as practicable I do this without stepping ashore.  It therefore makes sense to be pointing downstream since the line will then come taut and the bow will stay alongside the bank, and I can take my time then.  I'm struggling to think of a scenario where this wouldn't work?  If I do this facing up-stream, there's a fair chance the current will push the bow out which can cause problems.  It's all very well facing the flow if you've got one person at the helm holding the boat steady while the crewmember comes ashore at the bow to tie the front, but there are times when that is a very bad thing to do (like the Gloucester example already mentioned).

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3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I've never really understood this one, and since I'm on my own I don't do this.  I always get my stern line tied first when I'm on a river with a reasonable flow, and as far as practicable I do this without stepping ashore.  It therefore makes sense to be pointing downstream since the line will then come taut and the bow will stay alongside the bank, and I can take my time then.  I'm struggling to think of a scenario where this wouldn't work?  If I do this facing up-stream, there's a fair chance the current will push the bow out which can cause problems.  It's all very well facing the flow if you've got one person at the helm holding the boat steady while the crewmember comes ashore at the bow to tie the front, but there are times when that is a very bad thing to do (like the Gloucester example already mentioned).

Presumably you have not tried your method when there is a lot of flow on the river?

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1 minute ago, Naughty Cal said:

Presumably you have not tried your method when there is a lot of flow on the river?

I rarely if ever cruise on yellow boards.  Only once or twice.  I did the same thing for the reason I've given.  If I turn to moor against the flow I have to either run up the bank with my untied boat drifting and hope to grab the bow line (no chance!), or I tie the stern and watch the current push the bow out into the strong flow, or I step off with the centre line and hope to be able to hold the boat in while I tie it off.  I'm clearly not the only one:

You're welcome to suggest what I could do to be safer?

 

The critical thing about how I do it, is that I don't have to step off the boat (except possibly for a second or two).  So if things don't go quite right, I still have control of the boat.

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13 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

In that case you would have to ask why they both left the helm?

 

 

It does seem odd.

Our 'rule' is that we do not both get off the boat, or switch of engines', before both bow and stern lines are secured.

 

Bow line is secured by 'crew' (whilst on the boat) and I then drive forward 'into the line' which swings the stern in against the wall / side, . I can then reach over and hook the stern line over the cleat/bollard whilst the engine, (in gear and at tickover) holds us against the side.

 

This would obviously not work when relying on 'pins', but on visitor moorings with rings, cleats or bollards it is both simple and safe.

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46 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I've never really understood this one, and since I'm on my own I don't do this.  I always get my stern line tied first when I'm on a river with a reasonable flow, and as far as practicable I do this without stepping ashore.  It therefore makes sense to be pointing downstream since the line will then come taut and the bow will stay alongside the bank, and I can take my time then.  I'm struggling to think of a scenario where this wouldn't work?  If I do this facing up-stream, there's a fair chance the current will push the bow out which can cause problems.  It's all very well facing the flow if you've got one person at the helm holding the boat steady while the crewmember comes ashore at the bow to tie the front, but there are times when that is a very bad thing to do (like the Gloucester example already mentioned).

My take on it is that if you are heading against the current, water speed is greater than ground speed, which gives better control: you can often still steer when going backwards over the ground. That said, I often find it easier to moor in reverse, particularly in a tight space The important bit with the mooring lines is get the upstream one on first: whether the upstream one is bow or stern.

There is an advantage in being moored bow on to the current as the current should have less effect on the bow than the stern (boats being designed to travel bow first!) and, also, there's less chance of rubbish coming downstream ending up on the propeller.

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

On a river its wise to moor facing into the flow .  If that's not possible  it could be better to get a stern rope on first . There will always be exceptions to rules.

In both of the places I cited, this rule is not possible - in the case of Gloucester, you are coming alongside the wall to hold position whilst waiting for a green light. It is not really a mooring place. In the case of the K&A is is also a lock landing below a lock, followed by a river junction.

 

One of the fascinations about canal navigation (or indeed probably any, but I can only speak of what I know!) is that no two situations are identical, even on a flight of seemingly similar locks. Indeed, even the same location in different circumstances.

 

Reminds me also of when the first motorways were being developed. On the early M1 especially, a single visual design was used almost throughout but each bridge had to be individually designed (from an engineering point of view) as each location was different.

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1 minute ago, Iain_S said:

My take on it is that if you are heading against the current, water speed is greater than ground speed, which gives better control: you can often still steer when going backwards over the ground. That said, I often find it easier to moor in reverse, particularly in a tight space The important bit with the mooring lines is get the upstream one on first: whether the upstream one is bow or stern.

There is an advantage in being moored bow on to the current as the current should have less effect on the bow than the stern (boats being designed to travel bow first!) and, also, there's less chance of rubbish coming downstream ending up on the propeller.

This is exactly the point.  And it's a point usually missed on hire boat websites and on CRT's site.  This could easily lead to novices doing potentially dangerous things, especially new singlehanders.

 

When single-handing it's far safer to get the stern line on first, and it makes sense for the boat to be facing downstream.  The only downside I can think of it that more boatmanship is required when coming in to moor.

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58 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I've never really understood this one, and since I'm on my own I don't do this.  I always get my stern line tied first when I'm on a river with a reasonable flow, and as far as practicable I do this without stepping ashore.  It therefore makes sense to be pointing downstream since the line will then come taut and the bow will stay alongside the bank, and I can take my time then.  I'm struggling to think of a scenario where this wouldn't work?  If I do this facing up-stream, there's a fair chance the current will push the bow out which can cause problems.  It's all very well facing the flow if you've got one person at the helm holding the boat steady while the crewmember comes ashore at the bow to tie the front, but there are times when that is a very bad thing to do (like the Gloucester example already mentioned).

I had a bit of a fright earlier this year on the pontoon below Stourport. The river was quite lively but we happily stayed there overnight. In the morning when we were setting off to ascend the narrow locks, C went to set the lock (the pontoon which also acts as a lock landing) is set a little back from the canal entrance and there is no room to hover in the mouth below the lock so it needs to be open before attempting to enter) I stayed with the boat ready for her signal that it was set (you cannot see the state of the lock from the mooring). By now the river seemed OK and looked as if it was pushing the bow into the mooring, so I untied the bow and went back to the stern. By then the river had actually pulled the bow out, not in and the stern rope was pulled quite tight. Fortunately there was just enough slack for me to pull the boat in enough to loose off the rope but it was a tense moment! I've had nightmares since about what might have happened if I had not succeeded . . . 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It does seem odd.

Our 'rule' is that we do not both get off the boat, or switch of engines', before both bow and stern lines are secured.

 

Bow line is secured by 'crew' (whilst on the boat) and I then drive forward 'into the line' which swings the stern in against the wall / side, . I can then reach over and hook the stern line over the cleat/bollard whilst the engine, (in gear and at tickover) holds us against the side.

 

This would obviously not work when relying on 'pins', but on visitor moorings with rings, cleats or bollards it is both simple and safe.

We had a similar agreement.

 

Although I do remember a time outside the Pyewipe on busy summers day when we had pulled in for a pint, both stepped off and immediately became distracted talking to people we knew, both assuming that the other was sorting out the boat. To our surprise when we turned back towards the boat NC was serenely taking herself off in the direction of Lincoln, engine still running heading arrow straight down the middle of the Fossditch.

 

Had to borrow a dinghy to retrieve here that day :rolleyes:

 

We never did it again though and were many times more careful on flowing water. 

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17 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I had a bit of a fright earlier this year on the pontoon below Stourport. The river was quite lively but we happily stayed there overnight. In the morning when we were setting off to ascend the narrow locks, C went to set the lock (the pontoon which also acts as a lock landing) is set a little back from the canal entrance and there is no room to hover in the mouth below the lock so it needs to be open before attempting to enter) I stayed with the boat ready for her signal that it was set (you cannot see the state of the lock from the mooring). By now the river seemed OK and looked as if it was pushing the bow into the mooring, so I untied the bow and went back to the stern. By then the river had actually pulled the bow out, not in and the stern rope was pulled quite tight. Fortunately there was just enough slack for me to pull the boat in enough to loose off the rope but it was a tense moment! I've had nightmares since about what might have happened if I had not succeeded . . . 

Scary stuff, and could not happen if moored facing downstream.

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

Scary stuff, and could not happen if moored facing downstream.

 

I do it this way too. I always turn downstream when mooring on a river, especially in a strong stream as I can ferry-glide in astern into the bank, step off with the stern line and secure it to the bollard I selected to stop by when gliding in. Then walk up to the front, pick up the bow line and secure that too with all the time in the world as the stream keeps the bow in.

 

For context, this is me single-handing a 68ft narrowboat on the Thames, and sometimes on yellow or red boards. In summer in a flow of 0.5mph, it hardly matters which way you face to moor up, there is little risk of losing the bow and the current turning the boat around on you.

 

 

 

Edited by MtB
Add 2nd para.
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5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I do it this way too. I always turn downstream when mooring on a river, especially in a strong stream as I can ferry-glide in astern into the bank, step off with the stern line and secure it to the bollard I selected to stop by when gliding in. Then walk up to the front, pick up the bow line and secure that too with all the time in the world as the stream keeps the bow in.

 

I suppose my issue is the amount of 'advice' online about how to moor on a river which lacks any nuance or explanation of different approaches according to circumstance.

 

On the CRT site it says;

"On rivers you should moor with the front of your boat facing into the stream. This gives you more control as you slow to a halt. So, if you’re heading downstream, you’ll need to pass the mooring and turn your boat around. The same applies if you have a very strong wind behind you."

 

And it's true that you have more control as you slow.  But then it says absolutely nothing about how to tie up and in what order, once you're at a halt.  So it's quite possible for a newbie single hander to turn into the stream, get off and then either:  walk to the bow and watch as their boat floats away, or tie the stern and watch as the bow swings round into a current so strong, they can't pull the boat back in.

 

What it should say on the CRT site, is what others have said here, that you must tie the upstream line first, and if you're single handing you may therefore have to moor with the stern line at the upstream end.

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On 11/12/2021 at 16:55, Alan de Enfield said:

 

My company car went from the MKIV Cortina to a Sierra - 'Orrible thing. It wouldn't even drive straight and wandered all over the road in a strong cross wind. I only kept it for a few months and 'passed it down' to a new rep and I got a new Cavalier SRI. A far better car but heavy steeering with wide tyres and no power-steering.

The sri was a quick car in its day. Like you say heavy steering, it also suffered badly from torque steer if you didnt know what you were doing. Father in law bought one new A749 RDV iirc, I am good with number plates lol. I picked it up for him in Plymouth. We also used them int police for a while. Vastly, vastly superior to Ford in its day.

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3 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Scary stuff, and could not happen if moored facing downstream.

Not sure that you are necessarily correct.

 

In any event, not many of us would arrive at a lock landing and turn to face downstream only to turn again to enter the lock!

 

In fact, the flow of the water at the location was, somewhat unusually, such that it was reflecting off the upstream structure and pulling both front and stern away from the landing.

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