Boat purchase and no Bill of sale?

[SteveLevis]

Hi all,

 

looking to get a boat, but the one we are looking at does not have the original bill of sale?...is this likely to be a problem, or can you get indemnity for such things,

 

many thank for any replies...

[Alan de Enfield]

Basically NO. and NO.

 

Paperwork on the inland waterways is pretty much ignored (very different to the coastal boats) so it is not unusual to have no papertrail at all.

 

How old is the boat ?

 

If it is post 1998 it is far more important to have the RCD / RCR certification, and more and more boaters are citing problems with brokers, surveyors and insurers if it is not available.

 

Does it have the RCD / RCR paperwork and hull marked as being compliant ?

Is it a self build ?

Edited December 8, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[SteveLevis]

Hi and ta for the reply, and not self build. The boat is circa 2006 and has all the relevant boat safety certs and everything else you could ask for...

Edited December 8, 2021 by SteveLevis

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, SteveLevis said:

Hi and ta for the reply. The boat is circa 2006 and has all the relevant boat safety certs and everything else you could ask for...

Just to clarify on what Alan is saying, the RCD/RCR is the build standard. RCD is Recreational Craft Directive. It is a legal requirement to build boats to this standard and at the end of the build there should be a certificate of compliance and a CE mark on the hull. Whereas the BSS shows compliance at the time of testing, with a different set of requirements.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, SteveLevis said:

Hi and ta for the reply, and not self build. The boat is circa 2006 and has all the relevant boat safety certs and everything else you could ask for...

NO NOT BSS certificates.

 

The RCD is the certificate that is only issued once, and is the certificate to say the boat has been built to, and complies with all of the legislation.

 

Asking again - does it have the RCD "Certificate of Compliance" ?

[Tony Brooks]

Ideally the vendor would provide you with a set of bills for the boat going back for years. I provided a number of year's bills for moorings, license, spare parts (I do my own servicing etc.), BSS inspections and blacking.These went back over many years. I also provided my hand written  maintenance records plus a printed copy going back to the start of my ownership (20 years plus). The better the paper trail the more secure you can feel about the purchase.

[nicknorman]

As to the other question, it is very had to prove that the person selling the boat actually owns it, but you can look for such things as the maintenance and licensing history - receipts dated some time ago in the confirmed (by photo ID) name of the seller, ditto the CRT licensing history.

[SteveLevis]

Ta for the info, I will have a check for the RCD.....what happens if there isn't one?

 

nb just googled this...:-

 

If brand new, then No. When brand new, the craft should include: a Declaration of Conformity; Owner's Manual; Builder's Plate (including a UKCA mark); and a Watercraft Identification Number (WIN). The WIN has to be permanently fitted to the craft (such as stamped in the hull). Make sure that you see these before buying the boat. If not brand new, then Yes. The RCR only applies when the craft is first placed on the market or put into service (an example of being 'put into service' would be when used as a hire boat). So, if being sold as second-hand (no matter the age), unless imported or being an ex-commercial craft, then it does not have to comply with the RCR. It is recommended that the craft be surveyed before buying.

 

The boat will be having a survey prior to purchase...

Edited December 8, 2021 by SteveLevis

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, SteveLevis said:

The RCR only applies when the craft is first placed on the market or put into service (an example of being 'put into service' would be when used as a hire boat). So, if being sold as second-hand (no matter the age), unless imported or being an ex-commercial craft, then it does not have to comply with the RCR. It is recommended that the craft be surveyed before buying.

 

Unfortunately that source is out of date.

In 2017 the RCD was changed to apply to the boat 'for life' which is why there have been several threads recently where  people have had problems either selling or buying a boat without the relevant paperwork. In some instance the seller has had to have a PCA (Post construction Assessement) at a cost of several thousand pounds before the broker would take it on.

In other examples surveyors are telling people not to buy the boat they have surveyed because it doesn't have the documentation.

 

Many in the 'industry' seem to be unaware of the 2017 changes and more people are finding out the hard way.

 

You can easily buy a boat without the RCD documentation but when you come to sell, will it cost you £000's to get the paperwork to be able to sell it.

 

As many on the forum know I have purchased boats WITHOUT the RCD and have negotaited a 'knock down price' (in one instance reduced the price by £80,000) as it could not be sold without the documentation). By fair means and foul I managed to get the RCD certificate reissued and a retrospective 'VAT Paid Certificate' from the Croatian customs.

 

It is entirely your choice, how risk averse are you ?

 

A couple of recent examples of how the RCD certification & compliance is becoming more important

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

Cue Alan -

 

I think statement is no longer valid. The RCD/RCR is supposed to now apply for the life of the boat with reinspection at any alteration.  So any post 1998 built boat needs an RCD and from posts on here Brokers now seem to be insisting on an RCD/RCR so some vendors are facing four figure sums for the inspection, plus rectification work, before they will sell it.

 

How vital the correct documents for private person to person sales is open to question as enforcement for inland boats is all but non-existent.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, SteveLevis said:

Ta for the info, I will have a check for the RCD.....what happens if there isn't one?

 

Nothing.

 

Hope that helps...

 

More seriously, about the only thing likely to happen is when you come to sell it again is a proportion of potential buyers will decline your boat for lack of the RCD certification. As Alan started off by saying, a lot of canal boaters are not 'paperwork people' and simply don't care about RCD bureaucracy, but a proportion of people (Alan for example) care loads about it.  There is some debate about whether it is harder to sell a boat with missing RCD. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by MtB
Speeling

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

.......... but a proportion of people (Alan for example) care loads about it.

 

 

I certainly do, I've save £100,000+ by buying boats without their RCD documents. (see post 3 above this one)

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I certainly do, I've save £100,000+ by buying boats without their RCD documents. (see post 3 above this one)

 

Are you asserting the OP could go to Croatia and buy a narrowboat there with no RCD and save £100k?

 

If not I don't really see your  point.

[TheBiscuits]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

a lot of canal boaters are not 'paperwork people' and simply don't care about RCD bureaucracy, but a proportion of people (Alan for example) care loads about it.

 

Point of order m'Lud.  Alan isn't a canal people anymore.

[MtB]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

Point of order m'Lud.  Alan isn't a canal people anymore.

 

I think the OP may have guessed this by now! 

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Nothing.

 

Hope that helps...

 

More seriously, about the only thing likely to happen is when you come to sell it again is a proportion of potential buyers will decline your boat for lack of the RCD certification. As Alan started off by saying, a lot of canal boaters are not 'paperwork people' and simply don't care about RCD bureaucracy, but a proportion of people (Alan for example) care loads about it.  There is some debate about whether it is harder to sell a boat with missing RCD. 

I think going forward it will be more important as not only Brokers wont want to handle the sale people who haven't been about boats for years will ask what paperwork should be there who will run a mile. Alread people are worried if the seller doesn't have a bill of sale from when they bought it, but there are loads of people about at the moment who saw and liked a boat so they bought it.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think going forward it will be more important as not only Brokers wont want to handle the sale people who haven't been about boats for years will ask what paperwork should be there who will run a mile. Alread people are worried if the seller doesn't have a bill of sale from when they bought it, but there are loads of people about at the moment who saw and liked a boat so they bought it.

 

 

Which is why I said the effect of no RCD is debatable. 

 

There have been one or two examples cited on here of brokers declining to market boats which should have an RCD but equally, there are plenty more brokers who see no problem. 

 

 

[nicknorman]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Which is why I said the effect of no RCD is debatable. 

 

There have been one or two examples cited on here of brokers declining to market boats which should have an RCD but equally, there are plenty more brokers who see no problem. 

 

i think it is debatable right now, but neither of us know if it might become more high profile in the future. Therefore if one is about to buy a boat, surely it makes sense to get one with the correct paperwork rather than one without (unless it’s consequentially substantially discounted).

[ditchcrawler]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Which is why I said the effect of no RCD is debatable. 

 

There have been one or two examples cited on here of brokers declining to market boats which should have an RCD but equally, there are plenty more brokers who see no problem. 

 

 

I did say going forward, 6 months ago there wasn't one who was bothered by it.

[TheBiscuits]

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

There have been one or two examples cited on here of brokers declining to market boats which should have an RCD but equally, there are plenty more brokers who see no problem. 

 

I think a broker is classed as a "Distributor" under the regulations, so failure to comply with their duties mean they have committed an offence.

Interpretation

2.—(1) In these Regulations—

[snip]

“distributor” means a person in the supply chain, other than the manufacturer or the importer, who makes a product available on the market;

Penalties

74.  Any person who is guilty of an offence under regulation 73 (offences) is liable on summary conviction—

(a) in England and Wales—

  (i) to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months;

  (ii) to a fine; or

  (iii) to both.

(b) in Scotland and Northern Ireland—

  (i) to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months; or

  (ii) to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale; or

  (iii) to both.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/part/2/chapter/DISTRIBUTORS/made

 

Quote

DISTRIBUTORS

Duty to act with due care

27.  When making a product available on the market, a distributor must act with due care to ensure the conformity of that product with Part 2.

Making available on the market

28.—(1) Before making a product available on the market, a distributor must verify that—

(a)the product—

(i)bears the CE marking;

(ii)is accompanied by the required documents;

(iii)is accompanied by the instructions and safety information in a language that can be easily understood by consumers and other end-users in the Member State in which the product is to be made available on the market; and

(b)the manufacturer has complied with the requirements of—

(i)regulation 13 (duty of manufacturers to ensure products are labelled); and

(ii)regulation 14 (duty to provide information); and

(c)the importer has complied with the requirements of regulation 21 (duty of importers to ensure products are labelled).

(2) For the purposes of this regulation “required documents” has the same meaning as in regulation 19(2) (requirements that must be satisfied before an importer places a product on the market).

Duty not to place a product on the market where a distributor suspects that it is not in conformity

29.—(1) Where a distributor considers or has reason to believe that a product is not in conformity with the essential requirements, the distributor must not place the product on the market.

(2) Where a product presents a risk, the distributor must inform the manufacturer or importer, and the market surveillance authority and the competent national authorities of other Member States in which the distributor has made the product available on the market of that risk.

Storage and transport

30.  A distributor must ensure that, while a product is the distributor’s responsibility, its storage or transport conditions do not jeopardise its conformity with the essential requirements.

Duty to take action in respect of watercraft placed on the market which is considered not to be in conformity

31.—(1) A distributor who considers or has reason to believe that a product that the distributor has made available on the market is not in conformity with Part 2 must ensure that corrective measures necessary are taken to—

(a)bring the product into conformity;

(b)to withdraw the product from the market; or

(c)recall it.

(2) Where the product presents a risk, the distributor must immediately inform the market surveillance authority and the competent national authorities of any other Member State in which the distributor has made the product available on the market of the risk, giving details of—

(a)the reason or reasons why the product is not considered to be in conformity; and

(b)any corrective measures taken.

Provision of information and co-operation

32.—(1) A distributor must, following a reasoned request from an enforcing authority, provide it with all of the information and documentation necessary to demonstrate the conformity of the product with the requirements of this Part.

(2) The information and documentation referred to in paragraph (1) must be in a language that can be easily understood by the enforcing authority.

(3) The distributor must, at the request of the enforcing authority, co-operate with the authority on any action taken to eliminate the risks posed by a product that the distributor has made available placed on the market.

 

[MtB]

32 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

i think it is debatable right now, but neither of us know if it might become more high profile in the future. Therefore if one is about to buy a boat, surely it makes sense to get one with the correct paperwork rather than one without (unless it’s consequentially substantially discounted).

 

Quite so, and this is the "debate" I keep mentioning. 

 

The OP would be well advised to get up to speed on the RCD and form an opinion of their own. They might want to pay full price for a boat with all the paperwork in place or they might prefer to take a chance and buy one without, probably for a bit of a discount. 

 

I was answering their specific question about what happens if they buy a boat without an RCD, and the ensuing debate is illustrating the answer. A lot of windbagging happens, and not much else other than an elevated risk of difficulty selling via a broker at some point in the unspecified future. 

[SteveLevis]

Hi all and many thanks for all the useful comments, very much appreciated...a lot to think about!

[MtB]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

I think a broker is classed as a "Distributor" under the regulations, so failure to comply with their duties mean they have committed an offence.

 

You appear to have quoted the RCR which came into force in 2017, not the RCD which we were discussing. I was under the impression the boat the OP is considering is pre-2017, although having reviewed the thread I can't see it mentioned when it was built. 

[Richard10002]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

You appear to have quoted the RCR which came into force in 2017, not the RCD which we were discussing. I was under the impression the boat the OP is considering is pre-2017, although having reviewed the thread I can't see it mentioned when it was built. 

 

circa 2006, according to the op, early in the thread.

[SteveLevis]

..the boat is circa 2006...