Jump to content

First time narrowboat purchase.


BeatTheSystem

Featured Posts

Just now, BeatTheSystem said:

Thank you. I assume the transformer prevents current from flowing through the hull to ground. Is this not what anodes are for, to allow a sacrificial path?

 

An isolation transformer or a galvanic isolator are used to prevent an direct current (DC) flowing through the shoreline whilst allowing mains AC to flow and thus trip any RCDs or even MCBs or blow fuses. The problem is that any DC that is on that earth wire or hull would complete a circuit hull > earth wire > mains earth spike > soil > hull. If the DC is flowing form the hull to the water it will also be carrying steel from the hull into the water so the hull may hole.

 

The anodes could be affected by this but they are for a different purpose. When dissimilar metals are immersed in the canal they set up an electrical cell that produces DC that will flow through the from one metal, through the water and back into the hull. This again will pit the hull. Typcally the other metals will be such that the current will flow out of the steel, through the water to the other metal causing pits a the exit point. The anode metal is such that it forms one pole of the cell that the current will flow out of that metal rather than the steel so the anode gets eaten away rather than the steel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The difficulty with finance is that, unlike real property where either the mortgage (charge) is noted on the title register or for unregistered land (less common these days) the mortgagee holds the essential paper deeds, there is no formal means of knowing whether a canal boat is security for a loan.  The very fact the current owner has mentioned the loan/mortgage is possibly one indication of his/her not being too devious.  Or it may be a double-bluff.

 

I do wonder how many boats are security for a loan; any lender will surely appreciate that it is not too for the borrower difficult to sell the boat without informing the lender.  Or even borrow against it several times.  A boat does not seem to be great security - but maybe a useful extra to the personal covenants.

 

Unlike others, I think the owner - and not the lender - is the err... owner.  If the boat is security, the owner will be under an obligation to the lender to redeem the loan before sale - and thus (if the owner does what it should) the boat should be free of the mortgage.  Obviously a bit tricky if the sale proceeds are required to discharge the loan  On a conventional house sale, the seller's solicitor gives an undertaking to the buyer to discharge the mortgage from the proceeds of sale - and the seller does not get its hands on the mortgage slice of the price.   You could have something similar with a boat - whereby the seller (or much more preferably - its solicitor) undertakes to pay-off the loan pronto.  Or make it part of the contract that you as buyer will forward sufficient to the lender to clear the loan - with the balance to the owner.  But whatever you do, you face problem no. 1 in that you don't really know about any mortgage unless the seller tells you - so anything you do is founded on the information revealed.  I suppose adopting one of the above is some protection against an essentially honest seller who, have taken your money only then succumbs to the temptation not to pay off the lender.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

OK, had the survey done. Surveyor impressed, although this is a 1998 boat he said it was considerably better than some 2010 era ones he had just surveyed. Its not exactly a bargain but a good solid purchase. 

 

I am satisfied that the seller is the owner. There really needs to be titles or a DVLA style registration for these beasts, its like the wild west.  

 

The marina said I can take over the mooring. 

 

So now I need to pay the seller and get a bill of sale in return. 

 

Now as I am new to this, and please be gentle, what is next?

 

I am pretty sure I need insurance, can anyone suggest a good insurance company for this?

 

I also presume I need to register with the river trust. How do I go about this?

 

Thank you

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Assuming that you are on a Canal and River Trust waterway you will need to buy a licence, they are not transferable from the previous owner.

 

To get a license you will need proof of insurance and a current Boat Safety Scheme certificate.

 

Details here:

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/buy-your-boat-licence

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whats next ? CaRT Licence insure (We use GJW, not too sure its a great advert  they were offering  basic River canal recue membership so its £50 a call out. Beware though as some stories on here re RCR. 

 

Make sure you have navigation equipment - windlasses, mooring pins/ chain for armco or "Nappy pins" water in the tank, fuel in the tank, spanners mooring lines, theres plenty more you can spend money on too. Some maps of the network help- Nicholsons or Pearsons usually peaople find helpful  

 

Then enjoy!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, BeatTheSystem said:

 I am satisfied that the seller is the owner. There really needs to be titles or a DVLA style registration for these beasts, its like the wild west.  

 

 

 

 

The DVLA doesn't prove who owns the car just who the keeper is. I could own a car and my wife could be the registered keeper just like the wife could own half or all the boat but the husband could licence it with CRT

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The DVLA doesn't prove who owns the car just who the keeper is. I could own a car and my wife could be the registered keeper just like the wife could own half or all the boat but the husband could licence it with CRT

 

I was going to say similar :

 

If you look at the top of the V5 document (Log Book) it states in huge big CAPITAL letters :

 

THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP

 

And then :

 

"It shows who is responsible for registering and taxing the vehicle"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP

 

And then :

 

"It shows who is responsible for registering and taxing the vehicle"

 

An dditional purpose of the document is so the fuzz have someone to send the speed camera tickets, parking tickets etc to.

 

Same with CRT, they have someone to pursue if the boat starts overstaying etc. Often puzzles me what they do for CCers with no land address at all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

The DVLA doesn't prove who owns the car just who the keeper is. I could own a car and my wife could be the registered keeper just like the wife could own half or all the boat but the husband could licence it with CRT

Many years ago I "found" a car. Getting it registered was a nightmare (amongst other things the steering wheel was on the wrong side).

 

Had to get "chassis number insurance" to drive it to a test centre for SVA test, drive to a DVLA centre for visual checks on chassis number and engine number etc etc. Get valuation for possible import duties and VAT.

But, at no point in this process did I ever have to prove that I actually owned the vehicle 😀

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, dmr said:

Had to get "chassis number insurance" to drive it to a test centre for SVA test, drive to a DVLA centre for visual checks on chassis number and engine number etc etc. Get valuation for possible import duties and VAT.

But, at no point in this process did I ever have to prove that I actually owned the vehicle

 

 

From the way the RCR/RCD has been going in the last couple of years I can see similar happenening for boats that are trying to be sold without the correct RCR / RCD paperwork

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, BeatTheSystem said:

I am satisfied that the seller is the owner. There really needs to be titles or a DVLA style registration for these beasts, its like the wild west.  

 

DVLA vehicle registration does not register owners, just keepers. That is stated on the V5 for any vehicle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have Craftinsure insurance, so far they seem very professional. 

Its all online but there is a real person at the end of a telephone if you get in a real pickle. 

I would think about getting Legal Cover if you have a survey, but as others have said, the survey report only shows faults the surveyor has picked up, however its giving you a bit of security. 

And as you are novice and buying an older boat, I would consider the Gold River Rescue cover for a year, unless there happens to be excellent boat services at the marina, and you are fairly competent with engines  and maybe basic electrics. You can think about that after buying the boat. This time of year RCR do one off engine servicing , for anyone, which would be very educational, that would give you time to assess their workmanship. The lady who does their sales and marketing is very persuasive, but also very experienced with narrowboats. 

With respect to ownership, the Bill of Sale, see RYA site for download, expressly demands the boat is sold free of finance. You must tell the vendor this is going to be primary condition of sale, do not move on this. He has to sign. I would ask to see paperwork, and maybe his address, driving licence, something most folks would be prepared to provide. 

When you come to sell, you then have a proper paper trail. 

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks all, sent enquiries off for insurance to a few providers, all seem much of a muchness. 

 

Boat now purchased. Have previous bills of sales and surveys, safety certs etc. Completely satisfied the sale is fine. There is finance by way of a personal loan not connected to the boat.

 

Now to sort it out, its currently undercover on a slipway. I am speaking with the boat yard about a few upgrades as the bathroom and kitchen in particular are very tired. 

 

One thing I am going to tackle myself is the electrical system. (I am an electrical/controls engineer). It does not currently have solar, the inverter is underrated and rubbish, no galvanic isolation and presently when the inverter turns on it seems to also turn on the charger.  Is there anywhere someone could point me to examples of narrowboat power system wiring diagrams/schemes? 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, BeatTheSystem said:

Thanks all, sent enquiries off for insurance to a few providers, all seem much of a muchness. 

 

Boat now purchased. Have previous bills of sales and surveys, safety certs etc. Completely satisfied the sale is fine. There is finance by way of a personal loan not connected to the boat.

 

Now to sort it out, its currently undercover on a slipway. I am speaking with the boat yard about a few upgrades as the bathroom and kitchen in particular are very tired. 

 

One thing I am going to tackle myself is the electrical system. (I am an electrical/controls engineer). It does not currently have solar, the inverter is underrated and rubbish, no galvanic isolation and presently when the inverter turns on it seems to also turn on the charger.  Is there anywhere someone could point me to examples of narrowboat power system wiring diagrams/schemes? 

 

 

Try the Victron website, assuming you'll be using their gear -- or even if not, other makes will need similar components.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, BeatTheSystem said:

One thing I am going to tackle myself is the electrical system. (I am an electrical/controls engineer)

 

The regulations for wiring on boats is very very different to other areas in particular when compared to domestic wiring.

The specifications cover not only conductor CSA but the type and number of strands, things like the pull off force for any terminations and the maximum number of wires that can be connected to a terminal (eg battery terminal)

 

You should also consider the RCR (Recreational Craft Regulations) - when was the boat built ? and the implications for compliance and the possible need for a PCA (Post Construction Approval) by a recognised RCR approved surveyor once your work is completed.

 

You should obtain up to date copies of these specifications to ensure compliance :

 

The two specifications have now been merged into a single specification

 

 

Screenshot (785).png

Screenshot (786).png

Screenshot (787).png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BeatTheSystem said:

One thing I am going to tackle myself is the electrical system. (I am an electrical/controls engineer).

In that role you should have a better understanding of the issues which are different between boat wiring and house wiring - there have been a few disaster stories where domestic electricians have been let loose on a boat. Key differences are:

- Use multiple stranded wiring which is much more resistant to vibration. Domestic twin and earth cable is not suitable.

- With 12 (or 24) volt systems, voltage drop along the cable is much more significant than at 230V. So in general the wire cross sectional area is determined by the need to keep the volt drop within acceptable bounds. The resulting currents will be much lower than the current rating of the cable (which is determined by thermal criteria). And when making the voltage drop calculations you have to include the out and back (positive and negative) cable lengths. Some folk only calculate the volt drop in the positive wire, then wonder why power hungry appliances (e. g. the fridge) are unhappy.

- You should not use the steel shell as a negative return (as is done in vehicles). There should only be one connection between the electrical system negative and the shell. Since your alternator(s) and starter motor usually have the negative connected to their chassis and hence to the engine block, it is usual to run a chunky negative cable from the battery to the starter motor negative terminal, and then from there a short earth strap to an earthing point on the engine beds. Note that if you have flexible engine mounts these are insulating, and so without an earth strap, any fault currents would run via the engine control cables or flexible exhaust pipe - not a good idea!

Edited by David Mack
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm no expert on electrics, but this boat had two inverters, one being standard, and independant.

The other being a large charger inverter which is the brains of the whole electrics on the boat. 

That's layman's terms, it was something I failed to grasp even after reading all the expert advice on here. 

I bought a solar kit from Bimble, it works fine. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'm no expert on electrics, but this boat had two inverters, one being standard, and independant.

The other being a large charger inverter which is the brains of the whole electrics on the boat. 

That's layman's terms, it was something I failed to grasp even after reading all the expert advice on here. 

I bought a solar kit from Bimble, it works fine. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Didn't you chuck out the "charger inverter" ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'm no expert on electrics, but this boat had two inverters, one being standard, and independant.

The other being a large charger inverter which is the brains of the whole electrics on the boat. 

That's layman's terms, it was something I failed to grasp even after reading all the expert advice on here. 

I bought a solar kit from Bimble, it works fine. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Be very careful with 2 inverters. If they are out of phase ( will most likely always be ) you can get 460v between them. Get that across the heart just once and you will not be watching TV ever again.  In the confines of a narrow boat it will be almost impossible to achieve adequate separation distances.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BeatTheSystem said:

Thanks all, sent enquiries off for insurance to a few providers, all seem much of a muchness. 

 

Boat now purchased. Have previous bills of sales and surveys, safety certs etc. Completely satisfied the sale is fine. There is finance by way of a personal loan not connected to the boat.

 

Now to sort it out, its currently undercover on a slipway. I am speaking with the boat yard about a few upgrades as the bathroom and kitchen in particular are very tired. 

 

One thing I am going to tackle myself is the electrical system. (I am an electrical/controls engineer). It does not currently have solar, the inverter is underrated and rubbish, no galvanic isolation and presently when the inverter turns on it seems to also turn on the charger.  Is there anywhere someone could point me to examples of narrowboat power system wiring diagrams/schemes? 

 

 

If you HAVE now bought it, Insure it ASAP. just in case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Be very careful with 2 inverters. If they are out of phase ( will most likely always be ) you can get 460v between them. Get that across the heart just once and you will not be watching TV ever again.  In the confines of a narrow boat it will be almost impossible to achieve adequate separation distances.

I could have one at the bow and one at the stern, as I have two domestic banks plus one starter bank but to date I've been unable to find a good electrician, each one makes things worse than they were before they came aboard. One of them removed the big charger inverter, the washing machine now gets no power, and I'm not even sure if I can now connect to shorepower. 

The USB sockets at the stern no longer work, and the radio ( newly installed) works intermittently. 

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I could have one at the bow and one at the stern, as I have two domestic banks plus one starter bank but to date I've been unable to find a good electrician, each one makes things worse than they were before they came aboard. One of them removed the big charger inverter, the washing machine now gets no power, and I'm not even sure if I can now connect to shorepower. 

The USB sockets at the stern no longer work, and the radio ( newly installed) works intermittently. 

 

prob'ly best to sell the boat and buy one with a simple leccy system that you can understand.   :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.