New Boater, Old Boat, Too long ?

[Andy The Truck]

Hoping for some initial thoughts and advice. 

I,m looking at getting into a CC life. I've had experience with coastal/tidal river boats but not inland craft. I've lived off grid before so the practicality's of day to day life on board doesn't worry me that much.

I've found a NB which interests me for various reasons , one of which is the engine ( Armstrong Siddeley ) as i own a Armstrong vintage car as well so a nice connection .

Boat i feel would need a complete strip out inside and total paint job outside , All of which is fine and have the money to do all of this.. 

But one question bothers me at the start is the length of the vessel ..71.6x6.10.   

Please bear with me and cut me some slack here but questions are 

1- Would 71.6 restrict me a lot on some of the Southern and midlands sections..   I've noticed that for example the K&A between Bath and Reading says 70max....absolutely no way to squeeze in at at a angle with a NB on a Wide canal ?    Forgive me asking but like some road bridges the MAX HIGHT sign does give you a bit of leeway on trucks  (30 years of driving trucks has proven this to me )   

2- IF 71.6 restricts travel and the boat was having a lot of work done anyway is it worth / possible to cut and shut it down to 70 ?   if done professionally would this cause problems ?    

 

Other questions will undoubtedly arise but if travel is a deal breaker want to know before i bother to go view the boat 

 

Thanks in advance 

[Tracy D'arth]

Many old working boats are 72 feet, they managed.

 

Have you measured it? Accuracy was never a strong point with canal boats. It may be shorter than you think without fenders and with the rudder over.

A heck of a job to shorten a boat, which bit would you cut out or off?

A lot would depend on what the boat is, modern or old rivetted? Steel or iron?

 

There are dimensions published for all the waterways but some are known to be inaccurate and pessimistic.  Where would you wish to cruise and moor? You are aware of the severe restrictions on CCing are you not?

Edited December 5, 2021 by Tracy D'arth

[Alan de Enfield]

Is this by any chance a 'vintage boat' ?

 

Living with, and caring for, a Vintage boat is very different to living with a 'modern' boat.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit to add - an old thread about the AS engines :

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You are aware of the severe restrictions on CCing are you not?

 

I'm not and I've been CCing for a few years now.  Can you tell me more about these "severe restrictions" please?

 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is this by any change a 'vintage boat' ?

 

If it is I'd check the width as well as the length - it could be wider than 7' rather than 6' 10"

[Andy The Truck]

9 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Many old working boats are 72 feet, they managed.

 

Have you measured it? Accuracy was never a strong point with canal boats. It may be shorter than you think without fenders and with the rudder over.

A heck of a job to shorten a boat, which bit would you cut out or off?

A lot would depend on what the boat is, modern or old rivetted? Steel or iron?

 

There are dimensions published for all the waterways but some are known to be inaccurate and pessimistic.  Where would you wish to cruise and moor? You are aware of the severe restrictions on CCing are you not?

Not measured the boat yet, only just seen it up for sale and the brooker isn,t in until tomorrow .. 

I'd probably take out 18 inch's between the cabin and the front hold if possible   Looking at the pictures its either a unfinished project or a not very well done self fit out  in which case easier to strip out and start again and if its out the water and having a major refit just as well do all the work then and there..

 

South and Midlands initial areas of interest for me . 

 

Have done the research into CC yes.  

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is this by any change a 'vintage boat' ?

 

Living with, and caring for, a Vintage boat is very different to living with a 'modern' boat.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit to add - an old thread about the AS engines :

 

 

 

Funny you should say that... another brooker i talked to said that old boats are somewhat of a acquired taste.. As i own a 1926 Armstrong Siddeley Van, A 1935 Austin 7 and a Mule i think i fit into the Acquired taste category.  but thanks for the AS engine link .   

[David Mack]

A 71ft 6 in boat will happily do the whole of the K&A, and I have done so. That said there are some locks where you will need to take care - to get past the bottom gates you will need one gate open and one closed, and to shuffle the bow (if descending) or stern (if ascending) across to open/close the gate. Also be aware of projecting walkways on the uphill side of some bottom gates when ascending - don't get the tiller caught underneath. All this means you can't share locks with another 71ft 6in boat, but as long as the other boat is no longer than about 70 you can do it - the shorter boat has to enter last going up and leave first going down.

 

Anything over 57ft 6ins/60ft/62ft long is going to be unable to pass through locks on the Leeds & Liverpool east of Wigan, and some of the Yorkshire waterways, but you will have few problems elsewhere on the connected system.

Edited December 5, 2021 by David Mack

[Andy The Truck]

8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

A 71ft 6 in boat will happily do the whole of the K&A, and I have done so. That said there are some locks where you will need to take care - to get past the bottom gates you will need one gate open and one closed, and to shuffle the bow (if descending) or stern (if ascending) across to open/close the gate. Also be aware of projecting walkways on the uphill side of some bottom gates when ascending - don't get the tiller caught underneath. All this means you can't share locks with another 71ft 6in boat, but as long as the other boat is no longer than about 70 you can do it - the shorter boat has to enter last going up and leave first going down.

 

Anything over 57ft 6ins/60ft/62ft long is going to be unable to pass through locks on the Leeds & Liverpool east of Wigan, and some of the Yorkshire waterways, but you will have few problems elsewhere on the connected system.

Just what i wanted to hear David, Thank you..   As i suspected  The 70MAX was more a guideline than a rule 😉   Not a problem with ever going to Leeds or Liverpool...  I've been ... they are dumps     

OK... Well I can return the industrial size angle grinder to its box... not required...   Thanks  

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Andy The Truck said:

Not a problem with ever going to Leeds or Liverpool...

 

You can get to either by boat, just not on by a direct route.

 

Liverpool is easiest, turn left at Wigan - the 62' locks are to your right.

[enigmatic]

38 minutes ago, Andy The Truck said:

Hoping for some initial thoughts and advice. 

I,m looking at getting into a CC life. I've had experience with coastal/tidal river boats but not inland craft. I've lived off grid before so the practicality's of day to day life on board doesn't worry me that much.

I've found a NB which interests me for various reasons , one of which is the engine ( Armstrong Siddeley ) as i own a Armstrong vintage car as well so a nice connection .

Boat i feel would need a complete strip out inside and total paint job outside , All of which is fine and have the money to do all of this.. 

But one question bothers me at the start is the length of the vessel ..71.6x6.10.   

Please bear with me and cut me some slack here but questions are 

1- Would 71.6 restrict me a lot on some of the Southern and midlands sections..   I've noticed that for example the K&A between Bath and Reading says 70max....absolutely no way to squeeze in at at a angle with a NB on a Wide canal ?    Forgive me asking but like some road bridges the MAX HIGHT sign does give you a bit of leeway on trucks  (30 years of driving trucks has proven this to me )   

2- IF 71.6 restricts travel and the boat was having a lot of work done anyway is it worth / possible to cut and shut it down to 70 ?   if done professionally would this cause problems ?    

 

Other questions will undoubtedly arise but if travel is a deal breaker want to know before i bother to go view the boat 

 

Thanks in advance 

 

Full recommended dimension list is here: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/32433-waterway-dimensions.pdf

The funny thing is it's the last 1'6 that's most likely to restrict you in the South, but most of it is officially OK.

You've definitely got leeway where you can place a boat diagonally (although sometimes less than you might think: the Huddersfield Broad is roughly the same length as my boat with fenders down, but angling a boat diagonally away from gates you need to operate and towards ladders you need to climb is fiddly, not helped by leaky top gates making waterfalls over your boat). With narrow canals, some locks have a bit more room to spare than others, and you'll always need to be wary of the possibility of getting the skeg caught on the cill when going down, and prepared to refill the lock and retreat if it does.

 

Shortening a hull is possible (more usually people cut up boats to make them longer!) but wouldn't be cheap.

[Andy The Truck]

5 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

 

Full recommended dimension list is here: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/32433-waterway-dimensions.pdf

The funny thing is it's the last 1'6 that's most likely to restrict you in the South, but most of it is officially OK.

You've definitely got leeway where you can place a boat diagonally (although sometimes less than you might think: the Huddersfield Broad is roughly the same length as my boat with fenders down, but angling a boat diagonally away from gates you need to operate and towards ladders you need to climb is fiddly, not helped by leaky top gates making waterfalls over your boat). With narrow canals, some locks have a bit more room to spare than others, and you'll always need to be wary of the possibility of getting the skeg caught on the cill when going down, and prepared to refill the lock and retreat if it does.

 

Shortening a hull is possible (more usually people cut up boats to make them longer!) but wouldn't be cheap.

All helpful stuff .. thanks 

[Rob-M]

71'6" will make some locks tight so you just need to take care and keep an eye on what is happening especially going downhill.

[ditchcrawler]

I found out last trip that one of the locks up Crow is shorter than the rest

[Captain Pegg]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I found out last trip that one of the locks up Crow is shorter than the rest

 

No 2, but a 71' 6" boat will fit - providing it's shaped like a proper canal boat.

 

Are there really any boats out there that are genuinely over 70' long that aren't historics?

 

[nicknorman]

31 minutes ago, Andy The Truck said:

Just what i wanted to hear David, Thank you..   As i suspected  The 70MAX was more a guideline than a rule 😉   Not a problem with ever going to Leeds or Liverpool...  I've been ... they are dumps     

OK... Well I can return the industrial size angle grinder to its box... not required...   Thanks  

Not really relevant to your question but I feel obliged to point out that Liverpool by boat is fantastic! Free mooring in the docks for a week, with power etc. Leeds less fantastic, admittedly.

[Rob-M]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I found out last trip that one of the locks up Crow is shorter than the rest

Atlas and Malus go up and down the Crow.  When Willow came down I think they went backwards to clear the cill.

 

The Brades staircase is tight with 71'6", I thought I was going to have to reverse back up as it was a real struggle to get the bottom gate open but managed eventually with a bit of wriggling.

[Andy The Truck]

Just now, nicknorman said:

Not really relevant to your question but I feel obliged to point out that Liverpool by boat is fantastic! Free mooring in the docks for a week, with power etc. Leeds less fantastic, admittedly.

Maybe as a trucker running out of the docks  at Liverpool I only ever saw the worst side of the city.🤔

[spud]

1 hour ago, Andy The Truck said:

Hoping for some initial thoughts and advice. 

I,m looking at getting into a CC life. I've had experience with coastal/tidal river boats but not inland craft. I've lived off grid before so the practicality's of day to day life on board doesn't worry me that much.

I've found a NB which interests me for various reasons , one of which is the engine ( Armstrong Siddeley ) as i own a Armstrong vintage car as well so a nice connection .

Boat i feel would need a complete strip out inside and total paint job outside , All of which is fine and have the money to do all of this.. 

But one question bothers me at the start is the length of the vessel ..71.6x6.10.   

Please bear with me and cut me some slack here but questions are 

1- Would 71.6 restrict me a lot on some of the Southern and midlands sections..   I've noticed that for example the K&A between Bath and Reading says 70max....absolutely no way to squeeze in at at a angle with a NB on a Wide canal ?    Forgive me asking but like some road bridges the MAX HIGHT sign does give you a bit of leeway on trucks  (30 years of driving trucks has proven this to me )   

2- IF 71.6 restricts travel and the boat was having a lot of work done anyway is it worth / possible to cut and shut it down to 70 ?   if done professionally would this cause problems ?    

 

Other questions will undoubtedly arise but if travel is a deal breaker want to know before i bother to go view the boat 

 

Thanks in advance 

if this is severner pine then cutting it down for your convenience would be a crime against its history

[mrsmelly]

33 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Not really relevant to your question but I feel obliged to point out that Liverpool by boat is fantastic! Free mooring in the docks for a week, with power etc. Leeds less fantastic, admittedly.

If you dropped an Atomic bomb on Leeds, it would do 50 pence worth of damage. Much like Essex realy 

[davem399]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

If you dropped an Atomic bomb on Leeds, it would do 50 pence worth of damage. Much like Essex realy 

I thought it was said that it would do £5 of improvements.

[Andy The Truck]

23 minutes ago, spud said:

if this is severner pine then cutting it down for your convenience would be a crime against its history

That’s the one.. as for crime.. plenty perpetrated against the people of this country every day my friend .. but if you go back on the thread you will noticed that fate has now been circumvented . 

17 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

If you dropped an Atomic bomb on Leeds, it would do 50 pence worth of damage. Much like Essex realy 

Indeed .. but I’m not from Essex .. only have to live here.. so not that fussed about Atomic bombs.. and as I lived 4 miles from Devonport Dockyard as a child the threat of imminent nuclear annihilation holds no new fear for me 💥

[spud]

2 minutes ago, Andy The Truck said:

 .. but if you go back on the thread you will noticed that fate has now been circumvented . 

I missed that bit, but yeah seen it now. Hopefully pine will find the right owner

[Andy The Truck]

5 minutes ago, spud said:

I missed that bit, but yeah seen it now. Hopefully pine will find the right owner

Well I shall make enquires with the brooker and do a little more research . I only asked the question about length reduction as it’s never been a issue for me in the past .... unfortunately 😏☹️

[Bee]

Older boats do need a bit of measuring and a squint along the sides for bothersome bulges. To the best of my knowlege 6` 10" is a modern thing, working boats were 7` 0" and often a tiny bit over. and the length could indeed be 72` which could be damned tight with a joey boat with a straight stem and rudder pintles either end with a rudder hanging off one end. The only AS2 I ever knew was an easy starter but doubtless there were others that weren't.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

A lot would depend on what the boat is, modern or old rivetted? Steel or iron?

 

Given the target boat is 6ft 10in wide (not 7ft 1.5in), this rules out pretty much any historic riveted iron boat.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, Bee said:

Older boats do need a bit of measuring and a squint along the sides for bothersome bulges. To the best of my knowlege 6` 10" is a modern thing, working boats were 7` 0" and often a tiny bit over. and the length could indeed be 72` which could be damned tight with a joey boat with a straight stem and rudder pintles either end with a rudder hanging off one end. The only AS2 I ever knew was an easy starter but doubtless there were others that weren't.

My small experiences with AS2 engines were that they were easy starters, slow to rev but solid. Incredibly noisy though with a definite roar from the fan/flywheel.