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Narrowboat accessing Yorkshire canals via Trent Falls


jetzi

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I'm making a map of the possible places I can take my 65' narrowboat (without craneage and within reason - I'm not including the River Medway for example as it would involve going well out into the Thames estuary)

 

One thing I'm not sure of is whether I can reasonably include the northern rivers/canals - to York, Leeds, Wakefield, Market Weighton and Rotherham (Sheffield canal).


This is because at 65' there is no transpennine route and so it's necessary to go via the Tidal Trent around Trent Falls.

 

I haven't found a guide on the forum (please point me to one if you know of one!), but a number of people have mentioned making the journey. As far as estuary crossings go, is this something that is feasible for an inland water narrowboater to consider (with proper preparations of course, even hiring a pilot (with VHF) if necessary)?

 

I'm not planning on doing this trip any time soon, but I am curious to know if it's possible.

Edited by jetzi
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Really, I have seen several sources that give the length of Thorne Lock at less than 62'. I know that it is often possible to get a longer boat through a short wide lock diagonally, but an extra 3 feet seems like it would be pushing it?

 

 

 

From https://www.canalnarrowboat.co.uk/boat-handling/canals-lock-sizes/

 

Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation

Keadby to Bramwith is restricted by Thorne Lock to length 61 foot 8 inches, beam 17 foot. From Bramwith to Rotherham maximum craft size is length 229 foot 8 inches, beam 20 foot. From Rotherham to Sheffield: Length 61 foot 6 inches, beam 15 foot 3 inches.

 

 

From https://www.abnb.co.uk/useful-information/lock-dimensions

61ft 6in

Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigations
 
 
 
 
This is a pinch point. The normal maximum dimensions for a boat on this waterway are 61 feet and 6 inches long, 15 feet and 6 inches wide and 16 feet high (the maxium draught are unknown), but to pass through here the maximum dimensions are 61 feet and 8 inches long and 18 feet and 4 inches wide.
 
 
 

And Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainforth_and_Keadby_Canal

 

Maximum boat length 61 ft 8 in (18.80 m)
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Its the usual nonsense put together by people who havnt been there and have little knowledge of the system, you know, the sort who work for such as CART. I have, with another forum member taken my 7o foot Hudson through Thorne, we had nearly an inch to spare lol. I sold it to a newbie boater whilst moored at Lemonroyd, his first trip on a narrowboat involved him taking it through Thorne again. At my advice he went down backwards, no problems either way. He then went back down the lovely Tidal trent and eventualy ended up in London at his mooring.

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Thanks @mrsmelly, if you've managed to take a 70' boat through then definitely worth a try!

I wonder how many other places I have prematurely abandoned hope of exploring based on the lengths given in these guides.

 

I should perhaps post my map to the forum to get a review, I'm sure it must be riddled with such mistakes.

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Just now, jetzi said:

Thanks @mrsmelly, if you've managed to take a 70' boat through then definitely worth a try!

I wonder how many other places I have prematurely abandoned hope of exploring based on the lengths given in these guides.

 

I should perhaps post my map to the forum to get a review, I'm sure it must be riddled with such mistakes.

There are many similar mistakes throughout the country. My advice is if its a similar supposed no go area then ask on here for first hand advice from people who have actualy done the bit you want to do. Part of the reason that you will be able to do Thorne lock is that the gates open independantly rather than both together at the bottom.

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1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Fulbourne (71ft 6in) has been photographed in Thorne Lock with the top gates open and with the bottom gates open. But there was a few days boating in between the two shots!

Thats the beauty of the forum. You and I both know there is no way 71ft 6inches will pass through :)

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2 minutes ago, jetzi said:

Thanks @mrsmelly, if you've managed to take a 70' boat through then definitely worth a try!

I wonder how many other places I have prematurely abandoned hope of exploring based on the lengths given in these guides.

 

I should perhaps post my map to the forum to get a review, I'm sure it must be riddled with such mistakes.

 

The guides aren't wrong, the issue is that they are a simplification since the reality is infinitely complex because it's unique to the size and shape of the individual boat.

 

The maximum length of Thorne lock probably is 61' 6" if your boat is 17' wide and shaped like a brick. If it's longer than 61' 6" not 17' wide and not shaped like a brick then it may fit. In this case other's experiences suggest yours will fit but they don't guarantee it any more than the published dimensions mean it won't fit.

 

That's why you'd do well to publish your map and get the input of those who know.

 

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3 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

The guides aren't wrong, the issue is that they are a simplification since the reality is infinitely complex because it's unique to the size and shape of the individual boat.

 

The maximum length of Thorne lock probably is 61' 6" if your boat is 17' wide and shaped like a brick. If it's longer than 61' 6" not 17' wide and not shaped like a brick then it may fit. In this case other's experiences suggest yours will fit but they don't guarantee it any more than the published dimensions mean it won't fit.

 

That's why you'd do well to publish your map and get the input of those who know.

 

This is also true. The reason I mentioned my 70 foot " Hudson " went through was to say that shape boat could pass, due maybe to round stern, a boat with a square transom will be pushed further forward. However 5 feet is a hell of a lot shorter. Always worth a go anyway as if its a no go simply spin round at lock entrance and pop back to the Trent.

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Trent Falls is certainly doable in a narrowboat. We did it last May. here are a couple of blog posts:

 

Selby to Trent Falls

and

Trent Falls to Torksey

 

It was a great day out but we had waited a week at Selby for the weather, mainly the wind, to be calm.

 

I have seen a 62ft boat go through Thorne Lock with plenty of room. As others have said I think you would be fine going through there.

 

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1 hour ago, jetzi said:

I haven't found a guide on the forum (please point me to one if you know of one!), but a number of people have mentioned making the journey. As far as estuary crossings go, is this something that is feasible for an inland water narrowboater to consider (with proper preparations of course, even hiring a pilot (with VHF) if necessary)?

 

 

 

Yes NBs do go that way around but you need to take care and print off the latest charts before you go (they are updated every few weeks due to shifting sands and sand bars appearing where you saw deep water on 'last weeks' charts.

 

Also read the Bye-Laws and ensure you can comply - the two main ones use of and monitioring of VHF radio, and, that fact that you must not be single handed.

Unlike with C&RT, the laws are enforced by ABP on the Rivers

 

(A 'small vesse' is under 12 metres in length.)

 

Screenshot (419).png

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Going through Thorne Lock with a 65' boat can get you to Rotherham on the S&SYN. You can get to Goole, Wakefield and Leeds via the New Junction Canal and Aire and Calder. Also to York via the Selby Canal. Beyond there the older 60', or 57'6" locks will likely make it impossible. I've travelled with a 60' boat on the Calder and Hebble and that was right on the limit. 62' seems to be the real limit on the Leeds and Liverpool. The lock keepers won't let you take a boat longer than 60' to Sheffield. To Ripon is also 57'6" locks.

Definitely enough places to go to be worthwhile and to keep you amused.

Jen

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The figures for the Stainforth & Keadby in the 1888 Returns for the Board of Trade give a lock size of 65 feet by 17 feet, with more recent dimensions usually being given as 61 feet 6 inches by 15 feet 6 inches, though where I have seen these in BW papers, it usually suggested that this is the maximum size of boat currently using the locks, rather than the actual lock size. I expect that these dimensions have been used subsequently when people have enquired, rather than the actual lock size. I did once manage to stop a full length narrow boat from going down the Rufford Branch. They had got into the lock, closed the gates and had started emptying the lock when I pointed out that their boat was beginning to sit on the sill.

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2 minutes ago, Pluto said:

The figures for the Stainforth & Keadby in the 1888 Returns for the Board of Trade give a lock size of 65 feet by 17 feet, with more recent dimensions usually being given as 61 feet 6 inches by 15 feet 6 inches, though where I have seen these in BW papers, it usually suggested that this is the maximum size of boat currently using the locks, rather than the actual lock size. I expect that these dimensions have been used subsequently when people have enquired, rather than the actual lock size. I did once manage to stop a full length narrow boat from going down the Rufford Branch. They had got into the lock, closed the gates and had started emptying the lock when I pointed out that their boat was beginning to sit on the sill.

I am guessing that 61'6" x 15'6" is the maximum that could get through both Thorne and Bramwith. Bramwith has two chambers, a shorter one and a longer on. I presume the longer one was built for coal traffic from Hadfield Colliery to allow bigger boats between there and their customers. Hadfield had a loading wharf just outside Thorne with a huge winding hole that is still there.

A 65' boat would be safer using the long chamber at Bramwith lock. Not sure of the width there, but it is narrower than Thorne lock, so less option for for going diagonal. Beyond that it is big locks and push button boating for many miles.

Jen

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1 minute ago, jetzi said:

Is the long chamber open for use? UsuallyI find that when there are pairs of locks, one has been semi-permanently closed.

It was last time I was there and I've not heard rumours of problems. It is actually a big long chamber, with an internal set of gates around 60' in from the top set, rather than two chambers side by side. Can cause confusion if you are approaching from the bottom side, as it may look like the bottom gates are open ready for you to come in, but actually, someone is using the small chamber. Some pictures.

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On 04/12/2021 at 14:24, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Going through Thorne Lock with a 65' boat can get you to Rotherham on the S&SYN. You can get to Goole, Wakefield and Leeds via the New Junction Canal and Aire and Calder. Also to York via the Selby Canal. Beyond there the older 60', or 57'6" locks will likely make it impossible. I've travelled with a 60' boat on the Calder and Hebble and that was right on the limit. 62' seems to be the real limit on the Leeds and Liverpool. The lock keepers won't let you take a boat longer than 60' to Sheffield. To Ripon is also 57'6" locks.

Definitely enough places to go to be worthwhile and to keep you amused.

Jen

 

We went up the Tinsley Flight into Sheffield this year with another boat. Both boats were 60' 

The volunteers were very attentive throughout the passage because the walkways on those locks are topside of the bottom gates. It means that with a 60' boat  on the way up you can foul the swans neck on the walkway as you rise in the lock and on the way down you need to stay at the back of the lock until the bow has cleared the walkway on the way down then move forward so you don't cill the boat.  The other consideration is that there are no by-washes. This means that water is constantly running over the top of the top gates. On the way up you need to make sure your front deck drains properly and doors are closed, on the way down make sure the steerer wears a long raincoat that covers the top of their wellies or close the back doors on a trad stern. 

There was plenty of room at Thorne 

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On 04/12/2021 at 12:31, jetzi said:

I'm making a map of the possible places I can take my 65' narrowboat (without craneage and within reason - I'm not including the River Medway for example as it would involve going well out into the Thames estuary)

 

One thing I'm not sure of is whether I can reasonably include the northern rivers/canals - to York, Leeds, Wakefield, Market Weighton and Rotherham (Sheffield canal).


This is because at 65' there is no transpennine route and so it's necessary to go via the Tidal Trent around Trent Falls.

 

I haven't found a guide on the forum (please point me to one if you know of one!), but a number of people have mentioned making the journey. As far as estuary crossings go, is this something that is feasible for an inland water narrowboater to consider (with proper preparations of course, even hiring a pilot (with VHF) if necessary)?

 

I'm not planning on doing this trip any time soon, but I am curious to know if it's possible.

 
Please don't omit the Medway - it's a lovely trip if the weather is good,

 

https://scholargypsy.org.uk/2016/05/16/medway-trip-day-2-gravesend-to-queenborough/

dscf7510.jpg

Edited by Scholar Gypsy
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On 04/12/2021 at 23:58, jetzi said:

Really, I have seen several sources that give the length of Thorne Lock at less than 62'. I know that it is often possible to get a longer boat through a short wide lock diagonally, but an extra 3 feet seems like it would be pushing it?

 

 

 

From https://www.canalnarrowboat.co.uk/boat-handling/canals-lock-sizes/

 

Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation

Keadby to Bramwith is restricted by Thorne Lock to length 61 foot 8 inches, beam 17 foot. From Bramwith to Rotherham maximum craft size is length 229 foot 8 inches, beam 20 foot. From Rotherham to Sheffield: Length 61 foot 6 inches, beam 15 foot 3 inches.

 

 

From https://www.abnb.co.uk/useful-information/lock-dimensions

61ft 6in

Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigations
 
 
 
 
This is a pinch point. The normal maximum dimensions for a boat on this waterway are 61 feet and 6 inches long, 15 feet and 6 inches wide and 16 feet high (the maxium draught are unknown), but to pass through here the maximum dimensions are 61 feet and 8 inches long and 18 feet and 4 inches wide.
 
 
 

And Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainforth_and_Keadby_Canal

 

Maximum boat length 61 ft 8 in (18.80 m)

Re the Sheffield &SYN the top section is escorted by CRT. We went through in 2019 and the Staff confirmed that a 63'-0" boat would go through on its own BUT that they would not let it happen due to a past accident with such a boat. So in short it's not always what can go through. Just somthing to keep in mind.

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3 hours ago, oboat said:

Re the Sheffield &SYN the top section is escorted by CRT. We went through in 2019 and the Staff confirmed that a 63'-0" boat would go through on its own BUT that they would not let it happen due to a past accident with such a boat. So in short it's not always what can go through. Just somthing to keep in mind.

 Not the case now, Since everything now has to be booked through Leeds. A few cases this year where people have lied about the length of their boats which has caused safety issues going down, so much stricter, no more Katie Corner. At the end of the day it’s the Lock keepers responsibility and his head that’s on the line if it goes wrong.

 

Edited by PD1964
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On 04/12/2021 at 14:50, Jen-in-Wellies said:

... A 65' boat would be safer using the long chamber at Bramwith lock. Not sure of the width there, but it is narrower than Thorne lock, so less option for for going diagonal. Beyond that it is big locks and push button boating for many miles. Jen

 

On 04/12/2021 at 14:52, jetzi said:

Is the long chamber open for use? Usually I find that when there are pairs of locks, one has been semi-permanently closed.

Bramwith-Google.jpg.588d815846e26212451796a00a871060.jpgNot a pair of locks in this case. Single chamber can be split.

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44 minutes ago, PeterScott said:

 

Bramwith-Google.jpg.588d815846e26212451796a00a871060.jpgNot a pair of locks in this case. Single chamber can be split.

 

Schroedinger's lock - full and empty at the same time? 

5 hours ago, PD1964 said:

 Not the case now, Since everything now has to be booked through Leeds. A few cases this year where people have lied about the length of their boats which has caused safety issues going down, so much stricter, no more Katie Corner. At the end of the day it’s the Lock keepers responsibility and his head that’s on the line if it goes wrong.

 

 

Any idea why passage is supervised? In Anthony Burton's "Back Door Britain", written in the 1980's, they just turned up and went through the locks

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