WIFI

[GUMPY]

Depends on how many streams at once.

We often see two HD streams here (C and I like different things) along with other internet use at the same time.

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

How fast do you need to go to stream stuff?     works fine for me and is rock solid.. just adding another make to the mix!  

All depends what you're doing inside the boat -- for example if you have a PC/media server and want to wirelessly stream UHD video throughout the boat (yes, some people actually do this -- not me, I hasten to add...) then newer routers (higher cat numbers) will reach further.

 

As I keep saying, not everybody has the same needs... 😉

 

Draytek gear is good and well-supported but not cheap.

 

The Huawei 5G CPE Win external router is the top of their range for performance (includes 4x4 MIMO antenna) but it's expensive, assuming you can find one in the UK -- and good luck getting any support if you have problems... 😞

Edited December 14, 2021 by IanD

[Jim Batty]

On 13/12/2021 at 10:06, Mike Tee said:

Numbers are interesting as I am currently researching this subject - however link doesn't work if not on arsebook!

Sorry, that is a pain in the ...

 

Here's a proper paste-in.

 

Note that there is WAY too much cable for your average boat installation. I coiled it around a glass and zip-tied ... rather than invest in connectors and special shielded cable tool ... and invalidating the antenna warranty.

 

[Jim Batty]

On 13/12/2021 at 12:40, George and Dragon said:

Do you have speed test? Results for the three configurations would be instructive.  

Sorry, no. The canal breach fix was completed yesterday and we've moved on out of there (after 6 weeks).

 

For what it's worth, when on 5 bar, the iPlayer streams a show at hi-res (for a Mac 2880x1800 Retina screen) without dropping out. At 4 bar the same shows might drop out or stutter 2 or 3 times an hour.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Jim Batty
Add the iPlayer bit.

[Stroudwater1]

Apologies if it’s been asked before 100 times  but what router is recommended for a 12v boat just usual work, not gaming some TV watching via iPad and occasional zoom calls. 

[Richard10002]

8 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Apologies if it’s been asked before 100 times  but what router is recommended for a 12v boat just usual work, not gaming some TV watching via iPad and occasional zoom calls. 

 

Pretty sure it's been answered in this thread  

 

Huawei b535 router

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HUAWEI-51060DRJ-Huawei-B535-232-LTE/dp/B07TL2GRTQ

 

Poynting 4G XPOL A0001 antenna

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poynting-4G-XPOL-A0001-Cross-Polarised-Antenna/dp/B00C1DGFPS/ref=pd_lpo_3?pd_rd_i=B00C1DGFPS&psc=1

 

are as good a combination as any. I have an older Huawei router which I got "free" with a Three data sim contract several years ago, and it still works fine. I got the Poynting antenna years before that, and have seen no need to change.

 

There will be different combinations, but the above is as good as any for what you want.

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

Pretty sure it's been answered in this thread  

 

Huawei b535 router

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HUAWEI-51060DRJ-Huawei-B535-232-LTE/dp/B07TL2GRTQ

 

Poynting 4G XPOL A0001 antenna

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poynting-4G-XPOL-A0001-Cross-Polarised-Antenna/dp/B00C1DGFPS/ref=pd_lpo_3?pd_rd_i=B00C1DGFPS&psc=1

 

are as good a combination as any. I have an older Huawei router which I got "free" with a Three data sim contract several years ago, and it still works fine. I got the Poynting antenna years before that, and have seen no need to change.

 

There will be different combinations, but the above is as good as any for what you want.

This newer V2 Poynting antenna is cheaper, has slightly higher gain, and covers more bands (more future-proof):

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poynting-Omni-Directional-Polarised-Outdoor-Antenna-dp-B08F4S4DMN/dp/B08F4S4DMN/ref=dp_ob_title_ce

Edited December 15, 2021 by IanD

[GUMPY]

You will also have to get a 12v/2.1mm cable for the 535 to replace the mains PSU if you want to run it off 12v

Something like this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GELRHONR-Cigarette-Extension-Connector-DVR-Black/dp/B09BKZKG6K/ref=mp_s_a_1_2_sspa?

 

Maybe cheaper elsewhere

[Jim Batty]

... And you'll want to stabilise that 12v feed to the electronically sensitive router with something like this 12v Stabiliser

 

... and have the right-sized barrel jack to plug into the Huawei router, like this Barrel Jack on Extension Cable

 

... and make absolutely certain you get the polarity right from battery to router.

[Tony1]

 

Where might one buy a suitable mast for mounting a poynting aerial, plus the brackets and socket for the roof? 

 

A few people have complimented me on the length of my mast (I'm sorry but there had to be some mast size innuendo in this thread)- but I cant help wondering if one of those 8 foot monsters would do a better job of sustaining my pathetic dependency on the internet, when I'm out in the wilds. 

 

(And to think, I used to actually read books when there was no televisual entertainment. Now I think I might die from internet deprivation.) 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Tony1

[Jim Batty]

My mast is half a metre in length (as it were) ... but I'm sure someone will be along to say how you can extend yourself to an 8-foot whopper ...

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, Jim Batty said:

My mast is half a metre in length (as it were) ... but I'm sure someone will be along to say how you can extend yourself to an 8-foot whopper ...

 

If only there was a 'Kenneth Williams' font, or perhaps Frankie Howerd, I could express my admiration for your remarkable mast using the appropriate tone.... 

 

As it is I can only apologise to any casual readers for the two pages of puns that must inevitably follow.

 

 

[GUMPY]

35 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

A few people have complimented me on the length of my mast

My mast  is only about 12" and I find it long enough

Remember the taller the mast the longer the cable has to be and the more signal loss you get, especially if you have to join cables.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Loddon

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

My mast  is only about 12" and I find it long enough

Remember the taller the mast the longer the cable has to be and the more signal loss you get, especially if you have to join cables.

 

Clearly I know nothing of these matters, but I cant help suspecting that the loss of signal through an extra 6ft of cable would be a lot less than the loss caused by one's pole not reaching high enough to overcome the local topography, hills, dead spots etc?

As far as I can guess, the huge poles are an attempt to get the antenna above any such dead spots.

In fact, this was what affected me in the 48 hour moorings near anderton.

Its not a great area to start with (for signal), but there was a high bank next to the towpath, and my puny 3 footer didnt stand a chance of picking up a signal. 

Now if I'd had  a ten foot pole, I'd have been able to rewatch the entire series of Canal Diaries with no problem  😀

[GUMPY]

16 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Clearly I know nothing of these matters, but I cant help suspecting that the loss of signal through an extra 6ft of cable would be a lot less than the loss caused by one's pole not reaching high enough to overcome the local topography, hills, dead spots etc?

Losses in 6ft cable can be between 1.5-3db depending on the cable. Doesnt sound much but 3db is half power

Its a fine  balancing act, generally the longer the cable the thicker it has to be to minimise signal loss.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Loddon said:

Losses in 6ft cable can be between 1.5-3db depending on the cable. Doesnt sound much but 3db is half power

Its a fine  balancing act, generally the longer the cable the thicker it has to be to minimise signal loss.

Losses in decent quality coax at cellular frequencies should be less than that, typically about 0.3dB/m. Gain from a higher antenna will be much bigger than this.

[GUMPY]

37 minutes ago, IanD said:

Losses in decent quality coax at cellular frequencies should be less than that, typically about 0.3dB/m. Gain from a higher antenna will be much bigger than this.

Except that most units dont have what I would call decent coax and extensions certainly aren't good quality.

LDF450  has an att figure of 0.11db/m at 2ghz and that is half inch in diameter so I think your figures may be a bit optimistic.

It also depends on what you call cellular frequencies the three that are used by "3" one is 800mhz which your figures may well be correct for (CBA to check)  only does 3g down here.   The other two that "3" use for 4g are 1.8ghz and 2.1ghz both of which are high enough frequency to need decent cable.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Loddon

[Richard10002]

5 hours ago, Loddon said:

You will also have to get a 12v/2.1mm cable for the 535 to replace the mains PSU if you want to run it off 12v

Something like this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GELRHONR-Cigarette-Extension-Connector-DVR-Black/dp/B09BKZKG6K/ref=mp_s_a_1_2_sspa?

 

Maybe cheaper elsewhere

 

I use something like this to power it at 12V from a 5v USB socket. The one I bought is no longer available:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Converter-Ancable-Charging-Selectable-Connector/dp/B08SM4RV36/ref=pd_di_sccai_3/259-8962049-6966025?pd_rd_w=v0vnE&pf_rd_p=2529c273-c9d4-4495-807e-68ed4dfade5e&pf_rd_r=TGK61VJTG3PTVYPN7Y6A&pd_rd_r=d9a0deea-4c4d-46d5-bc09-22e11e4143e8&pd_rd_wg=BEjvS&pd_rd_i=B08SM4RV36&psc=1

 

[IanD]

49 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Except that most units dont have what I would call decent coax and extensions certainly aren't good quality.

LDF450  has an att figure of 0.11db/m at 2ghz and that is half inch in diameter so I think your figures may be a bit optimistic.

It also depends on what you call cellular frequencies the three that are used by "3" one is 800mhz which your figures may well be correct for (CBA to check)  only does 3g down here.   The other two that "3" use for 4g are 1.8ghz and 2.1ghz both of which are high enough frequency to need decent cable.

 

 

That loss figure of 0.3dB/m was at 2GHz, for normal diameter decent quality coax, not anything exotic.

 

https://www.digitalairwireless.com/articles/blog/signal-loss-in-rf-cable-what-is-the-numbers

 

Loss is roughly proportional to frequency, so the "standard" cable here (5mm diameter) will be about 0.5dB/m at 2GHz, the "low-loss" (10mm diameter) will be about 0.18dB/m. So a 6' length will have about 1dB of loss for "standard" cable.

 

Either way, signal level gain with a taller mast (several dB) will be a lot bigger than added cable loss.

Edited December 15, 2021 by IanD

[tree monkey]

On 13/12/2021 at 08:48, Jen-in-Wellies said:

More suited to a wide beam and best to dismantle it before setting off if you don't want to risk damaging it on a low bridge.

 

 

Pic credit: By Mike Peel; Jodrell Bank Centre for Astrophysics, University of Manchester., CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2171884

Ironically the locals are convinced that interferes with their mobile phone signals

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 hours ago, tree monkey said:

Ironically the locals are convinced that interferes with their mobile phone signals

Arrr them scientists are stealing all our 4G's. Get out the pitch forks and torches! 😀

[Tony1]

 

I wonder if I might once again touch upon the topic of pole length? 

 

I have seen a number of specimens both in the wild and in marinas that were clearly a product of the 'bigger is better' school of thought, standing 8 feet and more above the boat.

But there are also plenty of poles of a much lesser length, and which clearly give satisfaction (or they would surely have long since been removed from their various roofs).

 

My own pole is 3 feet long, which was probably fine for the Anglian waterways and the Nene where it was installed.

But I find I am suffering from pole envy in the more undulating terrain of the North West and Welsh borders.  

 

There has to be a compromise, obviously. When not in use, the pole has to lie flat along the roof, and it might become a bit of a nuisance if its too long.  

 

I suspect that a 6ft pole is as much as UK users will probably ever need, in the sense that it will deliver a usable signal almost everywhere, including even the Llangollen. 

Unless you intend to CC mostly in areas with poor signal, it seems as if a tall antenna mast will just not be needed 99.5% of the time. 

 

My own 3ft example is I feel more of a morale-booster than a signal booster, but then it is the mobile repeater type, and I'm now thinking that a normal poynting antenna and router setup would do a better job anyway. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Tony1

[robtheplod]

5 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I wonder if I might once again touch upon the topic of pole length? 

 

I have seen a number of specimens both in the wild and in marinas that were clearly a product of the 'bigger is better' school of thought, standing 8 feet and more above the boat.

But there are also plenty of poles of a much lesser length, and which clearly give satisfaction (or they would surely have long since been removed from their various roofs).

 

My own pole is 3 feet long, which was probably fine for the Anglian waterways and the Nene where it was installed.

But I find I am suffering from pole envy in the more undulating terrain of the North West and Welsh borders.  

 

There has to be a compromise, obviously. When not in use, the pole has to lie flat along the roof, and it might become a bit of a nuisance if its too long.  

 

I suspect that a 6ft pole is as much as UK users will probably ever need, in the sense that it will deliver a usable signal almost everywhere, including even the Llangollen. 

Unless you intend to CC mostly in areas with poor signal, it seems as if a tall antenna mast will just not be needed 99.5% of the time. 

 

My own 3ft example is I feel more of a morale-booster than a signal booster, but then it is the mobile repeater type, and I'm now thinking that a normal poynting antenna and router setup would do a better job anyway. 

 

 

ooooeeer missus!!

 

Ours is on a 30cm pole and works fine.   

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

I wonder if I might once again touch upon the topic of pole length? 

 

I have seen a number of specimens both in the wild and in marinas that were clearly a product of the 'bigger is better' school of thought, standing 8 feet and more above the boat.

But there are also plenty of poles of a much lesser length, and which clearly give satisfaction (or they would surely have long since been removed from their various roofs).

 

My own pole is 3 feet long, which was probably fine for the Anglian waterways and the Nene where it was installed.

But I find I am suffering from pole envy in the more undulating terrain of the North West and Welsh borders.  

 

There has to be a compromise, obviously. When not in use, the pole has to lie flat along the roof, and it might become a bit of a nuisance if its too long.  

 

I suspect that a 6ft pole is as much as UK users will probably ever need, in the sense that it will deliver a usable signal almost everywhere, including even the Llangollen. 

Unless you intend to CC mostly in areas with poor signal, it seems as if a tall antenna mast will just not be needed 99.5% of the time. 

 

My own 3ft example is I feel more of a morale-booster than a signal booster, but then it is the mobile repeater type, and I'm now thinking that a normal poynting antenna and router setup would do a better job anyway. 

 

 

From https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3156693_Evaluation_of_the_Propagation_Model_Recommendation_ITU-R_P1546_for_Mobile_Services_in_Rural_Australia

 

This is for 900MHz but the results for higher bands shouldn't be so different -- R is the height of the ground cover (e.g. buildings) surrounding the receiver, so the Rural curve is the one to use for a boat out in the sticks.

 

Roughly speaking, every time you double the height you gain 6dB, which is a *lot*.

 

Bigger is *definitely* better... 😉

Edited December 16, 2021 by IanD

[Tony1]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

From https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3156693_Evaluation_of_the_Propagation_Model_Recommendation_ITU-R_P1546_for_Mobile_Services_in_Rural_Australia

 

This is for 900MHz but the results for higher bands shouldn't be so different. Bigger is *definitely* better... 😉

 

Thanks Ian, its very interesting how steep the rural curve is, with big gains derived from increased heights between 1m and 5m. With very few buildings around compared to the urban areas, I guess that might be expected.

This work seems to have been done in Australia, and its not clear whether it was a more UK-like region, or a more open and/or desert-type area, with much less foliage than would be seen in the UK. 

But either way the principle seems clear- bigger is better, in terms of signal performance. 

However, we cant afford to be size queens, or indeed kings.

A 10 metre antenna, as lovely as it might be for watching netflix, does present one or two very minor issues on a narrowboat roof. 

So its all about where you draw the line between mast height and performance, right? 

What height do we actually need, in the more tricky rural areas with more dead spots and patchy coverage?

 

If I had arms like Geoff Capes and a 70ft boat with a clear roof, I might be tempted by a 10 metre monster. But sadly none of those things are the case, so I must compromise.

 

Rob's 1ft pole is clearly enough for the generally less hilly Norfolk area, but would it be good enough in the patchy areas of the Llangollen, say? 

 

How big is big enough?