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Reverse gear not working


Tony1

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4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Sounds like a prop or rudder foul to me. Might involve getting your hands cold to go down the weedhatch, but I would check that first before getting RCR or a boatyard out.

If you have a load of stuff caught on the rudder it doesn't have that much effect in forward gear, as it all gets blown backwards by the prop wash. But in reverse it all gets sucked into the prop and can seriously affect the reverse thrust.

 

Thanks David, I'll have another go at the prop before calling anyone out, I did get a lot of crap off it yesterday but there's a chance I could have missed some, as I was in kind of a hurry. 

 

The gloves do impede your feel somewhat, and make it harder to tell whats there, so I might give it a try with a bare arm.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Thanks for the feedback

 

The water normally swirls up either side of the boat when in reverse with little surface disturbance at the back.

 

 Check the speed of the gearbox coupling compared with the shaft in case it is slipping but I don't think that is very likely as you had ahead.

 

Yes it could be a slipping reverse clutch but why I have no idea unless someone really revved the engine in reverse with the prop jammed or very heavily fouled.

 

I had a prolonged session trying to clear the prop- there was a bit more rope round the shaft, and a few twigs had gotten wrapped around since yesterday's session, but it made no difference- still very low on power in reverse, but seemingly normal power in forward (as best I can tell). 

 

I've given up and called RCR, and hopefully they'll have a guy out tomorrow to do an initial diagnosis, so I'll keep you posted on his findings.

 

My hope is that its the reverse clutch, and its a cheap/quick replacement job....

 

I'd be surprised if they suggest a new gearbox as its only 6 years old,  and most of the parts are probably in better nick than the ones I would get if they were to offer me a recon unit.

 

I'm hoping if that's the way it unfolds, I can can offer them the extra money required to buy a new gearbox- I have a bit of a distrust of recon units after a recon car engine blew up on me years ago- what a waste of money that was...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

I'd be surprised if they suggest a new gearbox as its only 6 years old,  and most of the parts are probably in better nick than the ones I would get if they were to offer me a recon unit.

 

I'm hoping if that's the way it unfolds, I can can offer them the extra money required to buy a new gearbox- I have a bit of a distrust of recon units after a recon car engine blew up on me years ago- what a waste of money that was...

 

 

 

Although fairly good gearboxes, they don't tolerate mishandling or slightly mis adjusted cables well, so it could be that the clutch is worn out. I have a PRM 90 in my recently acquired boat with only 380 hrs on it and it is showing signs of clutch wear in ahead gear (slow to engage but gets there after a second or two). 

 

I have looked into the economics of replacing the clutches and the part is around £200. A brand new box is £700, so I imagine paying a specialist to overhaul the old gearbox may not make economic sense, so bear this in mind in any of your dealings with RCR.

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1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

 

 

 

My hope is that its the reverse clutch, and its a cheap/quick replacement job....

 

I'd be surprised if they suggest a new gearbox as its only 6 years old,  and most of the parts are probably in better nick than the ones I would get if they were to offer me a recon unit.

 

I'm hoping if that's the way it unfolds, I can can offer them the extra money required to buy a new gearbox- I have a bit of a distrust of recon units after a recon car engine blew up on me years ago- what a waste of money that was...

 

 

Be very wary of any"recon" from RCR. They use Key Engineering for the work ( they own the company ) and historically there have been many bad experiences. They specialise in fancy paint and knackered internals.

 

I doubt that RCR will repair your gearbox if it is just the cone clutch but a decent marina fitter probably would rather than just exchange the box. The cone clutch is a bronze double sided cone and does forward and reverse. I have changed quite a few, an easy job.

The oil is ATF fluid not engine oil in PRM mechanical boxes.

Price a new box from an agent like Calcutt , Midland Chandlers, ASAP to give you a fair idea of what is reasonable, some will also offer an exchange price to save you money.

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10 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

Although fairly good gearboxes, they don't tolerate mishandling or slightly mis adjusted cables well, so it could be that the clutch is worn out. I have a PRM 90 in my recently acquired boat with only 380 hrs on it and it is showing signs of clutch wear in ahead gear (slow to engage but gets there after a second or two). 

 

I have looked into the economics of replacing the clutches and the part is around £200. A brand new box is £700, so I imagine paying a specialist to overhaul the old gearbox may not make economic sense, so bear this in mind in any of your dealings with RCR.

 

Thanks Booke- I think RCR promise to pay for replacement parts up to £1000, but I suspect they retain the option to offer whatever is a cheaper option.

So if a new box is £700 and a recon unit is say half that, I think they will probably try to push the recon option to save money. 

I've no idea how thorough they are- the guy may get inside the unit and identify a knackered clutch, or he may just try out reverse gear, and then say 'replacement box needed'.

 

We shall see- but if a replacement gearbox is on the table as a solution, I hope they will accept an offer from me to pay for the extra cash needed to get a new box.

 

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16 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Be very wary of any"recon" from RCR. They use Key Engineering for the work ( they own the company ) and historically there have been many bad experiences. They specialise in fancy paint and knackered internals.

 

I doubt that RCR will repair your gearbox if it is just the cone clutch but a decent marina fitter probably would rather than just exchange the box. The cone clutch is a bronze double sided cone and does forward and reverse. I have changed quite a few, an easy job.

The oil is ATF fluid not engine oil in PRM mechanical boxes.

Price a new box from an agent like Calcutt , Midland Chandlers, ASAP to give you a fair idea of what is reasonable, some will also offer an exchange price to save you money.

 

Thanks Tracy- I've looked up a few example prices and a new PRM120 seems to go for about £700-£800. 

 

I'll just have to see what they offer.

I'm still hopeful the guy will see something that is relatively cheap and simple, but I'm preparing myself to be told I need a replacement box. 

 

RCR will do the labour as part of their service, and to be honest if they propose a recon box I'm not going to accept that without some negotiation, and I'm happy to pay a few hundred extra if it means getting a new unit- but what I dont want to do is bear the full cost of new unit. 

If there is a sum to be gotten back as part of a gearbox  exchange, I'll make sure they are aware of that, and see if I can it factored into the deal somehow. 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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47 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks Tracy- I've looked up a few example prices and a new PRM120 seems to go for about £700-£800. 

 

I'll just have to see what they offer.

I'm still hopeful the guy will see something that is relatively cheap and simple, but I'm preparing myself to be told I need a replacement box. 

 

RCR will do the labour as part of their service, and to be honest if they propose a recon box I'm not going to accept that without some negotiation, and I'm happy to pay a few hundred extra if it means getting a new unit- but what I dont want to do is bear the full cost of new unit. 

If there is a sum to be gotten back as part of a gearbox  exchange, I'll make sure they are aware of that, and see if I can it factored into the deal somehow. 

 

 

Good for you, stick to your guns.   Be sure to get the drive plate checked before the box goes back on.  R&D will get a new plate to you within one to two days if necessary. If you were closer I would come and fix it for you.

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19 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Good for you, stick to your guns.   Be sure to get the drive plate checked before the box goes back on.  R&D will get a new plate to you within one to two days if necessary. If you were closer I would come and fix it for you.

 

That's very kind of you Tracy, and hopefully if a new drive plate looks to be advisable, they will also do that. I'll ask the guy's opinion- although my suspicion is they will be focusing only on the essential work needed to get the boat moving safely again. 

If something ain't broken (properly), I won't be expecting them to fix it. 

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15 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

When you say an easy job @Tracy D'arth does it need any specialist tooling or procedures? I've worked on cars and engines in the past and I'm tempted to give it a go.   

Its straightforward, nuts and a circlip or two I think. The manual is here.  https://www.prm-newage.com/download-centre. Its been a while since I did one but I had no special tools to find. Much easier than a Hurth. PRM are very helpful.

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3 hours ago, Tony1 said:

RCR will do the labour as part of their service, and to be honest if they propose a recon box I'm not going to accept that without some negotiation, and I'm happy to pay a few hundred extra if it means getting a new unit- but what I dont want to do is bear the full cost of new unit. 

 

If you end up getting a new gearbox, I'd suggest it would be a Really Good Idea to hang on to the old one rather than let them have it for the peanuts they'll probably offer you. Then get it fixed/fix it yourself at your leisure as a winter project so when it happens again, you'll have a one-visit-fix available (i.e. just swap the gearboxes over) instead of the two-visit-fix a new transmission is gonna be this time.

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17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

If you end up getting a new gearbox, I'd suggest it would be a Really Good Idea to hang on to the old one rather than let them have it for the peanuts they'll probably offer you. Then get it fixed/fix it yourself at your leisure as a winter project so when it happens again, you'll have a one-visit-fix available (i.e. just swap the gearboxes over) instead of the two-visit-fix a new transmission is gonna be this time.

 

Do gearboxes tend to fail every 5-10 years? 

Its a pretty grim prospect for the boating community...

 

I was probably a bit ham fisted when I first got the boat, but since then I do tend to have half an eye on revs and gear changes, so I'm surprised its gone (if it has gone) this quickly.

But its quite possible I've been revving it a bit keenly in reverse when I've been winding, and perhaps the prop has caught up or knocked against something when I got near to the bank- it only has to happen a couple of times to do some real damage.  

In fact, its very interesting that the loss of power (even in forward gear) became suddenly very noticeable after I'd turned the boat near the Anderton lift and started heading east on our short cruise.  I never went closer than 6 feet to the bank in reverse, but maybe that was enough to catch on something.

 

Its also possible the previous owner was a bit more aggressive in his use of the gears and throttle. But it was his 'holiday' boat, and the engine only had 550 hours on it when I got it (about 15 months ago now)- and its still only got a bit over 1,000. 

I'm sure most of the parts in that gearbox are still going to be in decent condition, and if there is chance this will happen again in a few years, I might well get it fixed up and hang onto it as you say. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

But its quite possible I've been revving it a bit keenly in reverse when I've been winding,

 

When changing from forward to reverese (or reverse to forward) do you 'panic crash' from one to the other, or do you go "Forward - neutral for 3 seconds - reverse", and then "reverse - neutral for 3 seconds - forward".

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14 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Do gearboxes tend to fail every 5-10 years? 

Its a pretty grim prospect for the boating community...

 

 

I remember someone saying that a hire firm used to have PRM 120's in their dayboats. The gearboxes lasted 2 seasons in hire use! They just treated them as a service item and replaced them every couple of years. Ham fisted use will accelerate their demise, the manual states the engine MUST be at idle before any gear selections are made. I believe the same hire company had PRM150's in their other boats and they lasted many many years even in the hands of novice hirers.

If you want bullet proof reliability consider replacing it with a PRM 150. This is a hydraulic box and will last years......unfortunately it isn't exactly a drop in replacement for a 125......it needs an oil cooler and possible modifications to fit in. Obviously all this will cost you.   

Edited by booke23
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9 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Do gearboxes tend to fail every 5-10 years? 

Its a pretty grim prospect for the boating community...

 

I was probably a bit ham fisted when I first got the boat, but since then I do tend to have half an eye on revs and gear changes, so I'm surprised its gone (if it has gone) this quickly.

But its quite possible I've been revving it a bit keenly in reverse when I've been winding, and perhaps the prop has caught up or knocked against something when I got near to the bank- it only has to happen a couple of times to do some real damage.  

In fact, its very interesting that the loss of power (even in forward gear) became suddenly very noticeable after I'd turned the boat near the Anderton lift and started heading east on our short cruise.  I never went closer than 6 feet to the bank in reverse, but maybe that was enough to catch on something.

 

Its also possible the previous owner was a bit more aggressive in his use of the gears and throttle. But it was his 'holiday' boat, and the engine only had 550 hours on it when I got it (about 15 months ago now)- and its still only got a bit over 1,000. 

I'm sure most of the parts in that gearbox are still going to be in decent condition, and if there is chance this will happen again in a few years, I might well get it fixed up and hang onto it as you say. 

 

 

Do gearboxes fail often on hire boats where they really get abused 

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19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When changing from forward to reverese (or reverse to forward) do you 'panic crash' from one to the other, or do you go "Forward - neutral for 3 seconds - reverse", and then "reverse - neutral for 3 seconds - forward".

 

I definitely didnt allow a few seconds pause between fwd and reverse during my first 2 months aboard- and thats when much of the damage will have been done

 

19 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

I remember someone saying that a hire firm used to have PRM 120's in their dayboats. The gearboxes lasted 2 seasons in hire use! They just treated them as a service item and replaced them every couple of years. Ham fisted use will accelerate their demise, the manual states the engine MUST be at idle before any gear selections are made. I believe the same hire company had PRM150's in their other boats and they lasted many many years even in the hands of novice hirers.

If you want bullet proof reliability consider replacing it with a PRM 150. This is a hydraulic box and will last years......unfortunately it isn't exactly a drop in replacement for a 125......it needs an oil cooler and possible modifications to fit in. Obviously all this will cost you.   

 

I'd love a PRM150, but I think to be honest the most cost-effective solution is get another PRM120 and just to go easy on the gearbox, which is where I went wrong when I first got the boat.

 

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31 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I'd love a PRM150, but I think to be honest the most cost-effective solution is get another PRM120 and just to go easy on the gearbox, which is where I went wrong when I first got the boat.

 

Gaining experience can be costly but hopefully you have had a fairly low-cost introduction.

 

The man that never made a mistake, never made anything.

 

But - await RCR - you may just have a loose outer cable.

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Well, its confession time... Since you folks have been so helpful in suggesting possible causes (and fixes), the least I can do is let you know how its going. 

 

Two RCR chaps attended the scene of the crime early this afternoon.

One was clearly the leader and spokesman of the team, and the other was extremely reticent, young and spotty, and did not make any discernible contribution to the proceedings- but in fairness the latter allegation could probably also be levelled at me- and I guess that is the way of things with youngsters learning their trade.

 

I was ready for the engine cover to be whipped off double quick, and a forensic dissection of the stricken gearbox to commence. 

Instead, the first thing he did was to ask he could try driving the boat himself, to get an idea how much the reverse power was down. 

 

So we cast off the vessel and went back a forth a few times, and to my surprise it did seem to respond better in reverse than when I had last tried it (which was before my second clearing of the prop). 

The RCR chap commented that to him it seemed more or less ok in reverse. He said he had seen some vessels that picked up speed faster when in reverse, but that my boat did get up to a decent speed after a short while. His conclusion was that the boat was navigable with the reverse power available, and he suggested that before he delved into the gearbox any further, I should give it a proper try with some reverse manoeuvres, and see what I thought. 

 

There is a winding hole a few hundred yards further on where I can try out some winding moves and see how well the reverse is responding,  but the problem is that I cant do it yet.

I need to make a train journey the day after tomorrow and will be away for a couple of days, and I also need to hang on to my current spot as there are no free moorings visible for some way to the west, and not very much behind me to the east, If I move, I may lose this spot and have to get to the train station from another 3 miles west.

 

My sense is that movement in reverse is still not as lively as it has been in the past, but I am starting to doubt my own judgement to a degree, and I think the only way I'll be sure is by winding the boat and seeing how well it comes back when in reverse. 

 

To complicate matters, this afternoon a whole tribe of travelling youtubers descended upon the moorings, and although I must say they are very nice people, I do fear that if I leave the mooring for too long, my spot might be taken by one of the group.

 

On the plus side, I think if I can ingratiate myself with the leaders of the tribe (perhaps by means of a sacrificial offering to their pagan gods), I may not be boiled alive in their cooking pots, despite me being clearly very tasty.

Plus, my boat will be totally safe whilst I'm away. Rumour has it that they will attack any intruders with spears. 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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